CDZ Gun Control

[2aguy]

Progressives are overwhelmingly over-represented in the ranks of those who write and teach history. You have some historical correction to suggest? The USSR collapsed and all its satellites went boom. Not correct? Do you suggest that Ceausescu was at the heights of his powers when he was toppled?

How about you tell us how each one of the satellites went "boom".

Peacefully, except for Romania. The specifics are irrelevant. The Soviet empire collapsed. This was in no way due to the possession of guns by the people of Romania. As far as Romania's response to this death blow it had received, Ceausescu tried to do a Black Knight impersonation. It's only a flesh wound. Given his eventual fate, I would imagine he got exactly what he'd feared he'd get. I in no way want to diminish the sacrifice of those who died to take him down, but to suggest that he was the robust ruler of a powerful military is inaccurate.

I repeat the point which started this discussion. The little popguns we spend so much time and energy on are trivial. The subject of how we can defend ourselves against tyranny is a worthwhile one, but it doesn't involve the issue of gun control or gun rights.

That's not what the history books say. Even those written by your precious progressives acknowledge that guns played a role in the revolution.

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

In those countries with absolute gun control the vote is completely controlled by the dictator in charge……..

Mass murder, genocide, and ethnic cleansing only happen to unarmed people...

 

[jasonnfree]

Peacefully, except for Romania. The specifics are irrelevant. The Soviet empire collapsed. This was in no way due to the possession of guns by the people of Romania. As far as Romania's response to this death blow it had received, Ceausescu tried to do a Black Knight impersonation. It's only a flesh wound. Given his eventual fate, I would imagine he got exactly what he'd feared he'd get. I in no way want to diminish the sacrifice of those who died to take him down, but to suggest that he was the robust ruler of a powerful military is inaccurate.

I repeat the point which started this discussion. The little popguns we spend so much time and energy on are trivial. The subject of how we can defend ourselves against tyranny is a worthwhile one, but it doesn't involve the issue of gun control or gun rights.

That's not what the history books say. Even those written by your precious progressives acknowledge that guns played a role in the revolution.

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

 

[Wry Catcher]

That's not what the history books say. Even those written by your precious progressives acknowledge that guns played a role in the revolution.

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

 

[westwall]

How about you tell us how each one of the satellites went "boom".

Peacefully, except for Romania. The specifics are irrelevant. The Soviet empire collapsed. This was in no way due to the possession of guns by the people of Romania. As far as Romania's response to this death blow it had received, Ceausescu tried to do a Black Knight impersonation. It's only a flesh wound. Given his eventual fate, I would imagine he got exactly what he'd feared he'd get. I in no way want to diminish the sacrifice of those who died to take him down, but to suggest that he was the robust ruler of a powerful military is inaccurate.

I repeat the point which started this discussion. The little popguns we spend so much time and energy on are trivial. The subject of how we can defend ourselves against tyranny is a worthwhile one, but it doesn't involve the issue of gun control or gun rights.

That's not what the history books say. Even those written by your precious progressives acknowledge that guns played a role in the revolution.

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

The fact that they have done that throughout history. Two thousand years of written history is pretty compelling. Every billionaire (except for maybe Trump, but I don't believe a word he says to be honest) has declared a need for gun control. No gun control has ever been shown to stop crime, but the refrain is always "it's a good, or essential FIRST STEP". Well guess what, intelligent people understand where the following steps lead to.

We aren't dumb, unlike you who think you can propagandize your way through life. We read our history, we understand how the rich think, they don't like the peons to be armed because it interferes with their control.

 

[westwall]

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Yes, you loonies love your power. Must piss you off that the common man can tell you to fuck off huh... I've watched petty tyrants like you in operation, you're like Cartman but without a bit of humor.

 

[Liminal]

What in my arguments for rational gun control is incorrect or dishonest or made badly?

The arguments against me have been mostly emotional and disregard the history of gun controls which existed for most of our nation's history. The majority of posts by those opposed to all controls on guns are limited to personal attacks on my intelligence or character.

Thus I've decided the CZ may be the only place for an honest discussion on gun control.

I'm not the least bit intimidated by those obsessed with guns, who have no argument other than: The 2nd Amendment is sacrosanct, their fear of tyrannical government and their (irrational?) fears of going out in public unarmed.

I've taken on the first wo with reasoned remarks which have never been proved wrong.

1. There are already laws against the civilian population owning or having in their possession weapons of war unrestricted by law and or regulated.

Thus the Second Amendment is NOT sacrosanct as so many believe.

2. Only an idiot believes the possession of arms readily affordable and available to the current civilian population are sufficient to repeal a military or para military force of our government.

We live in a time when the government is temporary, and the people (at least those allowed to vote) can choose the civilian population who govern us, and control our military and para military agencies.

[THE GREATER THREAT TO OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILIES IS WHEN THE VOTE IS SUPPRESSED BY OVERT OR COVERT MEANS - BETTER TO WORRY ABOUT THE IMPACT ON OUR LIBERTY BY THE REALITY OF CU & McCUTCHEON V. FEC AND THE CURRENT EFFORTS BY SOME STATES TO LIMIT THE RIGHT TO VOTE BASED ON THE CANARD OF VOTER FRAUD]

Further more gun control does not outlaws guns, it regulates them. Licensing, registration and restrictions on specific forms of arms are already on the books. And yet loopholes exists, obviously, given who have had guns in their possession legally, and the horrors that they have inflicted in Connecticut, Virginia, Texas, Colorado, etc. etc.

3. I support a licensed person who can pass a background check and thereafter remains legally able to be a responsible gun owner has the right to own, possess and have in their custody and control a gun.

4. Responsible people understand that not everyone should own, possess or ever have a gun in their custody or control.

So, responsible people, any ideas?

Let's start with your premise that gun control doesn't outlaw guns. Would you like to revise that statement? I can provide you with a huge list of guns that cannot legally be held in private ownership.

 

[Liminal]

Reasonable gun control that wont restrict the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens and actually help something?
Does that exist?

Never does. All these laws do is make it harder for people like me to get a gun. A criminal can get a gun in a matter of hours if they know the right people.

I suppose we won't know if measures to reduce the ease to buy, borrow or steal a gun is imposed. The opinion that nothing will work isn't convincing or even credible.

The idea "to just try something, or do something" even if we know it won't work isn't convincing either.

Why am i supposed to give up one of my rights to make the work of police officer's easier? Why not ask me to give up my 4th amendment rights, or my right to trial by jury at the same time?

You don't know what will or won't work to mitigate gun violence. I will admit gun control is not a panacea for violence in America but doing nothing, trying nothing is foolish, selfish and can not stand.

Rational people with normal amounts of empathy are fed up with daily reports of murder, suicide and accidental deaths by gun. The more the NRA and it followers continue to roadblock efforts to reduce gun violence the more likely more restrictive laws will be promulgated.

You are not giving up any Right, you may be inconvenienced by the suggestions I've made over the past months.

The only ones' who will have gun restrictions are those have been convicted of a violent act, placed by civil order in a facility as a danger to them self or others, are on parole or probation or have a documented alcohol or drug addiction. All responsible gun owners support a means to keep gun out of their hands - why don't you?

Here's the problem, and here's why Second Amendment advocates will never consider compromise: Gun control can only lead to more gun control. Let's say you get everything you want on gun control.......will the slaughter stop? Of course we know it won't. So let's say some think tank decides that statistics prove the gun laws you like reduce violence. What happens after the next mass shooting? The logical answer would be more gun control......wouldn't it. And then more gun control every time there's another emotional outpouring. Where does that end?

 

[Liminal]

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Fringe? A hundred years ago there were less than 300 murders per year nation wide, and yet there were many millions of guns in the hands of private citizens. The problem is people, the problem is an uncivilized society.

 

[Liminal]

It's an economic issue, gun violence is paid for by the taxpayer. Since Democrats are fiscally responsible, vis a vis fiscally conservative, they hope to reduce taxes by not having to pay on the local level for first respondents, EMT's, Public Hospital emergency room costs, follow up treatment for those who survive; and the investigation, prosecution and incarceration of those who shoot and many times kill another.

Q. Why do you object to being licensed to own, possess or have a gun in your custody or control [Afraid of what a comprehensive background check will find?]

Why do you oppose having ID to vote? Afraid people are lying to vote?

I don't oppose voter ID laws. I do oppose efforts to suppress the vote!

If the Congress or a State believes fraud requires voter ID's, the State or Federal Government must provide the ID at no cost to individuals, and grandfather in all of those who have voted for years the right to vote until a fair common sense law is passed.

Don't pretend that long lines and shorter hours at the polls, and reducing the number of polling places strategically is anything but a dishonest effort to suppress the vote of likely Democratic Voters.

If a state wishes to enact a 'voter ID' law, it needs to justify doing so by citing objective, documented evidence that 'fraud' exists to such a degree as to warrant such a measure – which of course it cannot do.

Many older African-Americans, for example, lack the required documents to obtain such an ID, having nothing to do with its cost.

As already correctly noted: voter ID laws exist solely to discourage voting by those perceived by republicans likely to vote for democratic candidates, having nothing to do with 'fraud.'

If ever body were to watch the TV series Who do you think you are, they would understand that the slave trade brought Africans to the Americas, and to what was to become the United States, a hundred or more years than most of our ancestors arrived on our shores.

My earliest ancestor left Germany and arrived in New York in 1840, the rest after the Civil War.

Let's see if we can guess which group comprising 13% of the population commit 52% of the homicides.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Peacefully, except for Romania. The specifics are irrelevant. The Soviet empire collapsed. This was in no way due to the possession of guns by the people of Romania. As far as Romania's response to this death blow it had received, Ceausescu tried to do a Black Knight impersonation. It's only a flesh wound. Given his eventual fate, I would imagine he got exactly what he'd feared he'd get. I in no way want to diminish the sacrifice of those who died to take him down, but to suggest that he was the robust ruler of a powerful military is inaccurate.

I repeat the point which started this discussion. The little popguns we spend so much time and energy on are trivial. The subject of how we can defend ourselves against tyranny is a worthwhile one, but it doesn't involve the issue of gun control or gun rights.

That's not what the history books say. Even those written by your precious progressives acknowledge that guns played a role in the revolution.

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

The fact that they have done that throughout history. Two thousand years of written history is pretty compelling. Every billionaire (except for maybe Trump, but I don't believe a word he says to be honest) has declared a need for gun control. No gun control has ever been shown to stop crime, but the refrain is always "it's a good, or essential FIRST STEP". Well guess what, intelligent people understand where the following steps lead to.

We aren't dumb, unlike you who think you can propagandize your way through life. We read our history, we understand how the rich think, they don't like the peons to be armed because it interferes with their control.

Maybe billionaires are smart and pragmatic; not as you say conspiring to grab you gun?

I have not called you dumb, 2aguy is dumb.

But you're both obsessed and have closed minds to any effort to prevent, or at least try to prevent, mass murders which are way to common here than anywhere else in the world.

Points to consider:

• I have never argued for a complete ban or the confiscation of guns;
• I have made the point several times that prohibition does not work;
• I have pointed out the cost in money of gun play to local agencies (1st respondents, EMT transport, ER treatments (or corner autopsies), investigator's time - both police/sheriff and prosecutor's office. The cost to detain the shooter, probation and bail reports, preliminary hearings, trials, etc. etc. and in the case of murder and a conviction decades of appeals;
• I have never argued that gun control is a panacea.

 

[westwall]

That's not what the history books say. Even those written by your precious progressives acknowledge that guns played a role in the revolution.

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

The fact that they have done that throughout history. Two thousand years of written history is pretty compelling. Every billionaire (except for maybe Trump, but I don't believe a word he says to be honest) has declared a need for gun control. No gun control has ever been shown to stop crime, but the refrain is always "it's a good, or essential FIRST STEP". Well guess what, intelligent people understand where the following steps lead to.

We aren't dumb, unlike you who think you can propagandize your way through life. We read our history, we understand how the rich think, they don't like the peons to be armed because it interferes with their control.

Maybe billionaires are smart and pragmatic; not as you say conspiring to grab you gun?

I have not called you dumb, 2aguy is dumb.

But you're both obsessed and have closed minds to any effort to prevent, or at least try to prevent, mass murders which are way to common here than anywhere else in the world.

Points to consider:

• I have never argued for a complete ban or the confiscation of guns;
• I have made the point several times that prohibition does not work;
• I have pointed out the cost in money of gun play to local agencies (1st respondents, EMT transport, ER treatments (or corner autopsies), investigator's time - both police/sheriff and prosecutor's office. The cost to detain the shooter, probation and bail reports, preliminary hearings, trials, etc. etc. and in the case of murder and a conviction decades of appeals;
• I have never argued that gun control is a panacea.

You maybe haven't but the powers that be DO want total confiscation. We're just quicker than you it seems. If prohibition doesn't work then what makes you think that registration will do anything at all? If you want to reduce the cost of law enforcement then you must look at decriminalizing drugs and their use. Punish the hell out of the criminal misuse of drugs by all means but if someone wants to get high in the privacy of their own home who are we to tell them no?

No, you argue that it is a good first step. We all know where the following steps lead. How about you try doing something that WILL stop crime instead of doing something you KNOW won't have the slightest effect?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Fringe? A hundred years ago there were less than 300 murders per year nation wide, and yet there were many millions of guns in the hands of private citizens. The problem is people, the problem is an uncivilized society.

Are you suggesting all gun owners are uncivilized? Be clear, who are the uncivilized?

Where did you get the figure 300 murders per year?

 

[Wry Catcher]

And yet all we need to do to change our government is to vote. So our greatest fear should not be the fear of black helicopters, but of our vote being suppressed.

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

The fact that they have done that throughout history. Two thousand years of written history is pretty compelling. Every billionaire (except for maybe Trump, but I don't believe a word he says to be honest) has declared a need for gun control. No gun control has ever been shown to stop crime, but the refrain is always "it's a good, or essential FIRST STEP". Well guess what, intelligent people understand where the following steps lead to.

We aren't dumb, unlike you who think you can propagandize your way through life. We read our history, we understand how the rich think, they don't like the peons to be armed because it interferes with their control.

Maybe billionaires are smart and pragmatic; not as you say conspiring to grab you gun?

I have not called you dumb, 2aguy is dumb.

But you're both obsessed and have closed minds to any effort to prevent, or at least try to prevent, mass murders which are way to common here than anywhere else in the world.

Points to consider:

• I have never argued for a complete ban or the confiscation of guns;
• I have made the point several times that prohibition does not work;
• I have pointed out the cost in money of gun play to local agencies (1st respondents, EMT transport, ER treatments (or corner autopsies), investigator's time - both police/sheriff and prosecutor's office. The cost to detain the shooter, probation and bail reports, preliminary hearings, trials, etc. etc. and in the case of murder and a conviction decades of appeals;
• I have never argued that gun control is a panacea.

You maybe haven't but the powers that be DO want total confiscation. We're just quicker than you it seems. If prohibition doesn't work then what makes you think that registration will do anything at all? If you want to reduce the cost of law enforcement then you must look at decriminalizing drugs and their use. Punish the hell out of the criminal misuse of drugs by all means but if someone wants to get high in the privacy of their own home who are we to tell them no?

No, you argue that it is a good first step. We all know where the following steps lead. How about you try doing something that WILL stop crime instead of doing something you KNOW won't have the slightest effect?

LOL, you and 2aguy are "quicker than me"? That's odd, nothing in the posts of yours or his suggests such a thing. But i'll let you hold on to that fantasy, the odds are in favor of gun control, and the more severe forms which you fear will come about because the NRA and people like you are unwilling to act reasonably.

 

[Liminal]

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Fringe? A hundred years ago there were less than 300 murders per year nation wide, and yet there were many millions of guns in the hands of private citizens. The problem is people, the problem is an uncivilized society.

Are you suggesting all gun owners are uncivilized? Be clear, who are the uncivilized?

Where did you get the figure 300 murders per year?

Is that your rebuttal? Are you serious?

 

[Liminal]

I'll revise my statement: The total number of murders in the United States in 1915, from all causes, was less than 1700. Not a very big number out of a population of 100 million. How many murders now with 300 million?

 

[westwall]

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

The fact that they have done that throughout history. Two thousand years of written history is pretty compelling. Every billionaire (except for maybe Trump, but I don't believe a word he says to be honest) has declared a need for gun control. No gun control has ever been shown to stop crime, but the refrain is always "it's a good, or essential FIRST STEP". Well guess what, intelligent people understand where the following steps lead to.

We aren't dumb, unlike you who think you can propagandize your way through life. We read our history, we understand how the rich think, they don't like the peons to be armed because it interferes with their control.

Maybe billionaires are smart and pragmatic; not as you say conspiring to grab you gun?

I have not called you dumb, 2aguy is dumb.

But you're both obsessed and have closed minds to any effort to prevent, or at least try to prevent, mass murders which are way to common here than anywhere else in the world.

Points to consider:

• I have never argued for a complete ban or the confiscation of guns;
• I have made the point several times that prohibition does not work;
• I have pointed out the cost in money of gun play to local agencies (1st respondents, EMT transport, ER treatments (or corner autopsies), investigator's time - both police/sheriff and prosecutor's office. The cost to detain the shooter, probation and bail reports, preliminary hearings, trials, etc. etc. and in the case of murder and a conviction decades of appeals;
• I have never argued that gun control is a panacea.

You maybe haven't but the powers that be DO want total confiscation. We're just quicker than you it seems. If prohibition doesn't work then what makes you think that registration will do anything at all? If you want to reduce the cost of law enforcement then you must look at decriminalizing drugs and their use. Punish the hell out of the criminal misuse of drugs by all means but if someone wants to get high in the privacy of their own home who are we to tell them no?

No, you argue that it is a good first step. We all know where the following steps lead. How about you try doing something that WILL stop crime instead of doing something you KNOW won't have the slightest effect?

LOL, you and 2aguy are "quicker than me"? That's odd, nothing in the posts of yours or his suggests such a thing. But i'll let you hold on to that fantasy, the odds are in favor of gun control, and the more severe forms which you fear will come about because the NRA and people like you are unwilling to act reasonably.

He is certainly far better informed and educated on the subject than you are, hell he knows more about it than I do to be honest, and yes, we are "quicker" than you. We can grasp concepts and ideas faster than you. That is clear.

What is funny is you claim that the NRA acts unreasonably when it is the Federal government that perpetrated Fast and Furious. The NRA has repeatedly advocated for laws that prosecute bad gun dealers and has fought for laws that punish the criminal misuse of guns. Laws that you progressives ignore. Reasonable? The NRA has beat you on that point forward and backwards.

That's why you have been, and will continue to lose the public in this battle. All you have are progressive leaders who violated the COTUS by acting unilaterally, and billionaires like Bloomie perverting the rule of law and the Rights of the people by spending huge wads of cash propagandizing the issue.

It's YOU who are losing and look, you're not quick enough to figure that out.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Care to bet how quick the voting system would be corrupted if the common man didn't have guns to defend the process? Throughout history countries have been controlled by men with guns. Countries where the people had no right to defend themselves from those guys with guns. Care to bet how long it would have taken to get industrial reforms enacted in a country where the people had the ability to defend themselves from the strike breakers?

Or how long do you think the conflict diamonds would still be for sale if the workers were able to arm themselves? Hmm?

Face it dude. The only reason why this country got to where it is, as fast as it did is because the wealthy were afraid that if they overstepped themselves they would get their asses handed to them. Now, lo and behold it is the super wealthy who are pushing for gun control with the eventual goal of disarming the public. Care to bet how long the people will survive as free people when that happens?

The one percenters are out to control the whole world and they have to disarm the people first. And you support them... Why?

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Yes, you loonies love your power. Must piss you off that the common man can tell you to fuck off huh... I've watched petty tyrants like you in operation, you're like Cartman but without a bit of humor.

Wow, a string of personal attacks. Do you think this is an example for all members to follow? Or do you believe you are exceptional and rules don't apply to you?

 

[westwall]

What evidence do you have to prove your theory that the 1% want to banish guns from the common people? Even if Gates and the Kochs, et al wanted to confiscate all the guns in America, that task would be impossible.

Gun control in my vision is to take reasonable efforts to prevent what has become a daily occurrence in our country, and a rare one in other western democracies,

Your side sees any effort to do so as an effort to take away your gun(s) and those of us who support efforts to curtail the violence / murders as your enemy.

You sides obsession with guns is beyond my understanding and in my opinion borders on a fetish.

Your side sees your right to own a gun a greater right than a child in school, a teen at a movie theater or an adult at Christmas Party Right to live and their loved one's happiness.

By the way, I never take my gun to vote, do you?

BTW2, maybe those who are denied their right to vote because their polling place has been moved three bus transfers away, and it's only open for a few hours really will need a gun, or the gay people denied a marriage license to convince a fat bigoted thrice divorced clerk? What do you think about those situations?

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Yes, you loonies love your power. Must piss you off that the common man can tell you to fuck off huh... I've watched petty tyrants like you in operation, you're like Cartman but without a bit of humor.

Wow, a string of personal attacks. Do you think this is an example for all members to follow? Or do you believe you are exceptional and rules don't apply to you?

You get what you give pal. Calling us loonies and then you whine when we throw it back in your face? What the hell are you? Twelve?

 

[Wry Catcher]

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Fringe? A hundred years ago there were less than 300 murders per year nation wide, and yet there were many millions of guns in the hands of private citizens. The problem is people, the problem is an uncivilized society.

Are you suggesting all gun owners are uncivilized? Be clear, who are the uncivilized?

Where did you get the figure 300 murders per year?

Is that your rebuttal? Are you serious?

See that little mark at the end of each sentence? < this one. It does not indicate a rebuttal, which have had a ! or simply a .

Does that help? < fyi that designates a question asked.

 

[Wry Catcher]

We already have reasonable efforts to reduce gun violence……we have mandatory federal background checks, and laws that state if you commit a crime with a gun you go to prison. Everything else is geared toward making harder for normal gun owners to exercise their right to keep and bear arms….since every effort targets normal gun owners and does nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters.

You guys created the gun free zones that allow killers to murder innocent men, women and children…those deaths are on you. Since each location you listed is a gun free zone created by you and your ilk.

And after each time there is a gun violence incident, the gun grabbing feinsteins and schumers are there with new bills to outlaw guns. They won't stop till Americans are disarmed like the French and other Europeans are. Not a good idea since Obama will do whatever it takes to increase the number of muslim refugees into the USA.

Wow, the lunatic fringe sure do like their guns.

Yes, you loonies love your power. Must piss you off that the common man can tell you to fuck off huh... I've watched petty tyrants like you in operation, you're like Cartman but without a bit of humor.

Wow, a string of personal attacks. Do you think this is an example for all members to follow? Or do you believe you are exceptional and rules don't apply to you?

You get what you give pal. Calling us loonies and then you whine when we throw it back in your face? What the hell are you? Twelve?

The Lunatic Fringe is a well heeled political science term, like the Right or the Left or the Fringe. It is a particular form of fringe, as TR once noted:

"Lunatic fringe is a term used to characterize members of a political or social movement as extremists with eccentric or fanatical views. The term was popularized by Theodore Roosevelt, who wrote in 1913 that, "Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe"."

Of course the NRA and its fanatic followers are anything but reformers.