Greatest Athlete Ever

[LA RAM FAN]

Figure this would be fun to get opinions. Each has it's own merit. Be it the impact/popularity of the sport, the level above others they are, the team vs. solo sport debate, etc...

Who do you think is the Greatest Athlete Ever?

A few I would throw out there.

Jim Brown- Lettered 13 times in 5 sports in high-school. NFL, NCAA football, and Lacrosse HOFer. Arguably greatest NFL and Lacrosse player ever (2 sports!). Dominated the NFL. Set records until he was bored, and sometimes would double what the next best guy could do. The one complaint I've heard is he wasn't a great blocker, which I say If you are keeping him in to block, you are failing and using him wrong. It's like saying Babe Ruth wasn't a great bunter.

Michael Phelps- most dominant Olympian ever. Lets just say he broke Leonidas of Rhodes 2100 year old olympic medal record. Tough to call a record breaking accomplishment better than that one.

Pele- 1281 goals and 3 world cups. Best player in the most popular sport in the world.

Muhammad Ali- lost a lot of his prime with the Vietnam draft. But was the best in a STACKED heavyweight field.

Babe Zaharias- Arguably best female athlete ever, track and field, and golf champion.


Womens tennis I think is too close (Navratilova, Serena, Graf, Court)
Same with Mens tennis (Federer, Nadal and now Djokovic).

Baseball I don't know well enough

Golf is tight (Snead, Nicklaus, Tiger, Hogan, Palmer)

Basketball is tight and so dependent on so much more. Russell won 11 championships in 13 years. Wilt had the most dominant years. Jabbar had an insanely long elite career. Jordan was magical, and Lebron is doing things now with all around play and longetivity that are scary.




Some others I wouldn't put in there but fun to talk about.

Sugar Ray Robinson 213-1-2 record as a fighter by age 30 (amateur and pro). Wow. 258 wins before he hung them up.

Jim Thorpe- Olympic gold, and pro football, baseball, and basketball player

Lance Armstrong - if only clean

Kelly Slater and Tony Hawk - not super popular sports, but they rocked them

Florence Griffith Joyner. STILL holds the 100m and 200m womens records over 20 years later. In an era it seems these fall like domino's that is impressive.


Herschel Walker. Ok a bit of homerism here, was a huge fan and always liked him. at 230 lbs and football weight was able to set the 60m collegiate record (broken in the next heat by Carl Lewis....). A legit track demon, nearly made both summer and winter olympics (winter made bobsled, summer was Taekwondo, but the US failed to qualify). And just blew guys away in any of the "superstars" challenge for athletes back in the day. One of the best college backs ever, 5500 rushing yards in his 3 USFL seasons, and just a freak.

Still does an insane body weight workout, and in his 50's was winning fights in MMA.

30+ years of aging shouldn't look like this.
View attachment 265339

View attachment 265337

Wayne Gretzky. It's a team sport and not a super popular one. But you don't wear 99 in hockey period anymore because of him. If he'd never scored a goal in his career, he'd be the all time points leader.

Jerry Rice. I already called Brown for football, but his ability and his longetivity are unrivaled.

Nadia Comaneci- the perfect 10 in gymnastics.

Lionel Conacher - Hockey Hall of Fame, the Canadian Football Hall of Fame, and the Canadian Lacrosse Hall of Fame. Won a Grey Cup (CFL champ), an International Professional Lacrosse League championship, a Stanley Cup (NHL Champ), an international league championship (Baseball pro league in 1930's), and was the Canadian amateur light-heavyweight boxing championship.

There's a story he won a baseball championship, then ran across town to join his pro-lacrosse team which was losing 0-3, and scored 4 goals to give them a win.

yeah I was going to say Ali but Jim Brown for sure would be right up there.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Bruce Jenner when he was a he and not a she or it.

yeah when IT actually had hairy armpits coming from the body

 

[Asclepias]

One could look at it that way. Another way to look at it was he took the easy way out

Whats easy about uprooting your family and moving? I for one am glad he left. He changed the landscape by doing so. Why stay somewhere that isnt working for your goals. Thats like saying its the easy way out if you leave your employer and go to a competitor because they refuse to put you in the position you aspire to have. Its stupid. No reason to stay stuck in a position when you can go somewhere else and obtain your goals.

Poor guy had to move from Cleveland to Miami. I feel sorry for him and have a new respect for him.

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

But Serena could be considered the most dominant player in the history of tennis, regardless of gender. Indeed, the only time she loses is when she has the occasional mental lapse or when she is injured. Otherwise, it's lights out for her opponent, and it has been thus for nearly 20 years. What other athlete can say the same?

thats another example of a HE pretending to be a she only difference is HE covers it up and is not open about it.LOL

SHE won MAN of the year award.comedy gold.

Serena Williams ‘Man of the Year’ GQ cover sparks controversy for an odd reason

 

[Asclepias]

One could look at it that way. Another way to look at it was he took the easy way out

Whats easy about uprooting your family and moving? I for one am glad he left. He changed the landscape by doing so. Why stay somewhere that isnt working for your goals. Thats like saying its the easy way out if you leave your employer and go to a competitor because they refuse to put you in the position you aspire to have. Its stupid. No reason to stay stuck in a position when you can go somewhere else and obtain your goals.

Poor guy had to move from Cleveland to Miami. I feel sorry for him and have a new respect for him.

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Boston and Detroit faced prime Jordan and beat him even when he refused to loose.

 

[G.T.]

Whats easy about uprooting your family and moving? I for one am glad he left. He changed the landscape by doing so. Why stay somewhere that isnt working for your goals. Thats like saying its the easy way out if you leave your employer and go to a competitor because they refuse to put you in the position you aspire to have. Its stupid. No reason to stay stuck in a position when you can go somewhere else and obtain your goals.

Poor guy had to move from Cleveland to Miami. I feel sorry for him and have a new respect for him.

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

 

[G.T.]

Whats easy about uprooting your family and moving? I for one am glad he left. He changed the landscape by doing so. Why stay somewhere that isnt working for your goals. Thats like saying its the easy way out if you leave your employer and go to a competitor because they refuse to put you in the position you aspire to have. Its stupid. No reason to stay stuck in a position when you can go somewhere else and obtain your goals.

Poor guy had to move from Cleveland to Miami. I feel sorry for him and have a new respect for him.

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Boston and Detroit faced prime Jordan and beat him even when he refused to loose.

Lose*

Those weren't his prime years...not stat wise(except ppg), and not skill wise.

 

[rightwinger]

Shaq literally cleared the center with his shoulders and dunked almost every play at LSU...shot from 5 feet out like he was partially retarded, and didnt develop any actual skills until Akeem mentored him in the off season.

If shaq was 6 foot 4 instead of 7 feet, he would have not made Division 3 in college

LSU isnt the NBA. You cant go to the NBA just beause youre big. If Jordan was 6 ft instead of being 6'6" he wouldn't have played college ball.

Shaq literally went just because he was big.

So did Bol and a whole host of other giants.

Shaq had good footwork, but I agree, the key to him being a dominant player was his combination of size, speed, and strength

He didnt get his nice footwork until Akeem mentored him. Thats from Shaqs mouth, too

Foot work isnt the only skill Shaq had. He could pass and surprisingly he could dribble.

Couldn’t make a free throw if his life depended on it

 

[Asclepias]

Poor guy had to move from Cleveland to Miami. I feel sorry for him and have a new respect for him.

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

We arent talking will to win even if what you say is true. You cant measure someones will simply by looking at them. You measure that by being there to see every minute of work they put into becoming the best. We are talking about who is the greatest athlete. Lebron is by far MJ's superior when it comes to being an athlete.

 

[rightwinger]

Poor guy had to move from Cleveland to Miami. I feel sorry for him and have a new respect for him.

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

Nonsense

LeBron has carried teams his entire career
Just came up against some superior western conference teams

 

[Asclepias]

LSU isnt the NBA. You cant go to the NBA just beause youre big. If Jordan was 6 ft instead of being 6'6" he wouldn't have played college ball.

Shaq literally went just because he was big.

So did Bol and a whole host of other giants.

Shaq had good footwork, but I agree, the key to him being a dominant player was his combination of size, speed, and strength

He didnt get his nice footwork until Akeem mentored him. Thats from Shaqs mouth, too

Foot work isnt the only skill Shaq had. He could pass and surprisingly he could dribble.

Couldn’t make a free throw if his life depended on it

True. Never could figure out what was the issue with that. I thought it was his hands being too big but Kwahis hands look about the same size.

 

[Votto]

Who is the greatest athlete?

That is not even debatable.

 

[Asclepias]

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

Nonsense

LeBron has carried teams his entire career
Just came up against some superior western conference teams

Bingo. Never saw a guy accomplish so much with so little help.

 

[G.T.]

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

We arent talking will to win even if what you say is true. You cant measure someones will simply by looking at them. You measure that by being there to see every minute of work they put into becoming the best. We are talking about who is the greatest athlete. Lebron is by far MJ's superior when it comes to being an athlete.

No, you engaged me and my remarks on the topic at the time you engaged me were about the will to win.

Lebron has the best talent WITH size proportions we've ever seen and with the level of control he's had over choosing teammates he's lost more chips than he's won.

This game is all about x-factors, and I've seen a fully pussified Lebron when it matter most and his legacy was having all kinds of speculation at the time and he knew it and he admitted he felt the pressure.

And lost.

And so for that, he's out of GOAT contention on my list because his talent/size proportions didn't make up for the lack of will power.

 

[G.T.]

Im sitting here mulling over all the 80s and 90s players that I saw give it all their guts and refuse to lose...and I dont think Im putting Lebron in my top ten for will to win when factored with physical ability to do so.

Id probably even take Reggie Miller in his prime in a pinch over Lebron if something like my life were on the line. Reggie detested losing more than most humans Ive seen...too bad Mike was in the way so much, though

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

Nonsense

LeBron has carried teams his entire career
Just came up against some superior western conference teams

Lebron's deep playoff appearances early in his career was when the East Coast was the worst I've ever seen in my lifetime of 37 years.

 

[Asclepias]

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

We arent talking will to win even if what you say is true. You cant measure someones will simply by looking at them. You measure that by being there to see every minute of work they put into becoming the best. We are talking about who is the greatest athlete. Lebron is by far MJ's superior when it comes to being an athlete.

No, you engaged me and my remarks on the topic at the time you engaged me were about the will to win.

Lebron has the best talent WITH size proportions we've ever seen and with the level of control he's had over choosing teammates he's lost more chips than he's won.

This game is all about x-factors, and I've seen a fully pussified Lebron when it matter most and his legacy was having all kinds of speculation at the time and he knew it and he admitted he felt the pressure.

And lost.

And so for that, he's out of GOAT contention on my list because his talent/size proportions didn't make up for the lack of will power.

No I just pointed out that the topic isnt about will to win. Its about greatest athlete. If youre talking will to win then you have no way of measuring that unless youre there to document the work that person puts in to be the best and the drive they display to make it so. I can have the will to pick up a one ton rock and work out constantly trying to achieve that goal. Are you saying that me never being able to pick up a rock that weighs one ton means I lack the will?

 

[Asclepias]

Yet they lost all the same. You can refuse to lose all day long but it doesnt mean youre going to win. Ask Stockton and Malone. Ask Reggie, Ask Barkely. Ask A.I. The history of the NBA is filled with players that refused to lose but did all the same.

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

Nonsense

LeBron has carried teams his entire career
Just came up against some superior western conference teams

Lebron's deep playoff appearances early in his career was when the East Coast was the worst I've ever seen in my lifetime of 37 years.

Thats because the west was so deep. Not Lebrons fault. The point was that Lebrons teams beat better teams when he made those deep runs. Ask the Celtics

 

[G.T.]

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

We arent talking will to win even if what you say is true. You cant measure someones will simply by looking at them. You measure that by being there to see every minute of work they put into becoming the best. We are talking about who is the greatest athlete. Lebron is by far MJ's superior when it comes to being an athlete.

No, you engaged me and my remarks on the topic at the time you engaged me were about the will to win.

Lebron has the best talent WITH size proportions we've ever seen and with the level of control he's had over choosing teammates he's lost more chips than he's won.

This game is all about x-factors, and I've seen a fully pussified Lebron when it matter most and his legacy was having all kinds of speculation at the time and he knew it and he admitted he felt the pressure.

And lost.

And so for that, he's out of GOAT contention on my list because his talent/size proportions didn't make up for the lack of will power.

No I just pointed out that the topic isnt about will to win. Its about greatest athlete. If youre talking will to win then you have no way of measuring that unless youre there to document the work that person puts in to be the best and the drive they display to make it so. I can have the will to pick up a one ton rock and work out constantly trying to achieve that goal. Are you saying that me never being able to pick up a rock that weighs one ton means I lack the will?

No, I'm saying that in the NBA - the player that's considered having the most dominant size and talent combo fails to dominate, often, when it's time for the Chip to fall at the end of the season.

That's literally all I'm saying - and any and everyone is free to disagree with me and I'm comfy about it. I've seen him give up with my own two...you require him to say "I give up" verbatim to intuit that he gave up. We have very different standards in that regard. It''s quite alright, by me.

 

[G.T.]

Ask everyone who faced prime Jordan. I know the story...and Lebron is a great athlete with a mediocre will.

Prime Jordan only existed with Scottie Pippen. I cant give MJ all the credit when he had another HOFer guarding the best player on the other team and directing the offense so MJ could rest.

I love Scottie Pippen and don't discount his efforts, and still was intuitive enough to see that MJ is the greatest when it came to will to win in the Finals. He had the skill and put it to work with a 100% NBA Finals success rate, series wise.

That's some shit LeBron was/is incapable of...and he can't erase that history now it's too late.

Nonsense

LeBron has carried teams his entire career
Just came up against some superior western conference teams

Lebron's deep playoff appearances early in his career was when the East Coast was the worst I've ever seen in my lifetime of 37 years.

Thats because the west was so deep. Not Lebrons fault. The point was that Lebrons teams beat better teams when he made those deep runs. Ask the Celtics

The Celtics were over the hill - the East was trash and the West was "the NBA."

 

[Rocko]

Shaq literally went just because he was big.

So did Bol and a whole host of other giants.

Shaq had good footwork, but I agree, the key to him being a dominant player was his combination of size, speed, and strength

He didnt get his nice footwork until Akeem mentored him. Thats from Shaqs mouth, too

Foot work isnt the only skill Shaq had. He could pass and surprisingly he could dribble.

Couldn’t make a free throw if his life depended on it

True. Never could figure out what was the issue with that. I thought it was his hands being too big but Kwahis hands look about the same size.

Hands too big is the dumbest excuse. Look at Jordan. He hand enormous hands. Shaq never practiced. That’s why he never could hit his free throws