Germany Generated 74 Percent Of Power Needs From Renewable Energy

[Spoonman]

I have solar and power my house 100% with it. everything is electric, including heat and stove. I haven't seen a utility bill in 4 years other than a credit for surplus i've produced

Wow, seems great. A few questions if you do not mind.

Can I have the name of the system, model number? Who built it. Can you take some pics and post them?

Can I know roughly, where your house is, in a city, in the country, on a farm?

How many square feet is your house.

Do you use air conditioning all summer, all day and all night?

How much did it cost, did you get tax credits? How was it paid for? Lease, Bought, Rented? Financed.

How much surplus do you generate, in KWH's?

my house is rated net zero. yep, I use heat, AC what ever as needed. all year long all night and day. I generate about 2500 kwh surplus per year. the house is in a suburb. the system is owned. I installed the panels, the electrical hookups as required by law were done by a licensed electrician and hook up to the grid by the power company. I have a 2nd system on the house which is off the grid and has battery storage. all that powers now is the all season porch but I have lines run to all critical equipment in the event of a long term power failure. but for the most part that system is back up and is not currently powering heat, AC or appliances .

 

[flacaltenn]

Stat: You really gonna insist on believing that ....

It is a fact that Germany is now achieving 3/4 of it's energy output through renewables.

That happened for a few hours ONE DAY. And a couple days before that, virtually nothing. You cannot run a modern industrialized society on bad investments like that.

 

[elektra]

Gee, I just hate to call anyone out for lying, but you cannot have it both ways.

You wrote:




Since the only, and I mean, only truly dangerous history of leadership in Germany was indeed from 1933-1945, I will not let you get away with this kind of dishonesty.

Secondly, you provide stats from one location for one day and somehow that is supposed to impress me?

The daily stats are not as important as the yearly production stats. For wind, on a windy day, the output will be enormous. On a day where there is no wind, the output will be less. The average is what counts, especially since the energy is being fed all into the same net all the time. This is exactly the same principle that investors in the stock market use for diversifying their respective portfolios.

So, as to coal: Germany is starting to experiment with extracting a lesser quality of coal. The method is being hotly discussed here, most do not want it. But the number of mines (most of which are of course in the Ruhr Valley) are a drop in the bucket compared to the national energy grid.

I will come back and bring you all the facts, not just the few assorted things you have decided to cherry pick.

Once again, shame on you for referring to the Nazi-era. Don't even try to lie again and say it wasn't so. It is quite obvious for anyone with eyes that can see.


One more thing: Germans do NOT want nuclear. They have already made their decision and are quite firm about it. Funny how you, as a supposedly freedom-loving person, want to spit on the wishes of other people. And cut the crap about this is going to cause people to die in the winter. What unbelievable horseshit.

This is, of course, not going to happen, and after a number of years, I plan to confront you about this. Right here, on this thread.

boy, I could not resist to jump in, you state the only dangerous period of German leadership was the NAZI era? 1933-1945?

Seems maybe the average student of History in USA has a greater knowledge of German's History then the average German. I do not state this to insult you, and it seems you may get insulted easily. So please consider this, based on you defining 1933-1945.

It was not only the Socialist (NAZI) that were the problem, it was the typical German that was a problem all the way back to the 1800's.

Before Hitler was born the average German citizen called for the killing of JEWS! Sure some defended the Jews, but only by stating, "if only the Jew would change we could accept the Jew into German Society".

Hitler was born into a country that called for the extermination of the Jews, it was the culture, the society in which Hitler was born, not the society that Hitler created.

I wonder if you know this fact?

As far as your ideas about "perfect" Wind Power, how about telling us how many barrels of oil are used at this Clean Perfect Renewable Wind farm. Did you state the name?

What about maintenance, how much maintenance does this "Perfect" wind farm require.

You state a whole lot that kind of makes me wonder how to even start a debate.

I guess I want to see if you really understand simple History because it seems you may not really understand who killed the Jews.

Well now, that was some interesting but ill-informed bullshit you served up there, [MENTION=46310]elektra[/MENTION].

I am an American living and working in Germany for 17 years and I quite sure I know the history of this land far more than you will ever know.

Not only am I am American living in Germany, I am an American Jew living in Germany, so you can be quite guaranteed that I am well versed in more than one facet of German history.

Germany had a number of rough periods - well, different parts of Germany had rough periods, but the unification happened in the 1880s and no period in any part of Germany's history was dangerous in any comparable way to 1933-1945.

So, no, you didn't insult me, but you indeed showed your ignorant ass for what it is. Just like the first time I encountered you here in USMB and you were unbelievably rough and assholian and uncouth. I am not easily insulted, but don't have much patience with self-aggrandizing fools. So, your name fits you quite well.

Hitler was not born in Germany, btw. He was born in Austria. And in Austria, there were not cries for the extemination of Jews when and where he was born.

So, yes, I know exactly who killed "the Jews".

I never mentioned "perfect" wind power. So, who were you quoting? It wasn't me. Or were you simply lying? Somehow, that would not surprise me. Do you enjoy lying?

Your ignorant and ill-though response shows - once again - how little you understand history.

So, to recap the title of this thread:

Germany Generated 74 Percent Of Power Needs From Renewable Energy


It is a fact that Germany is now achieving 3/4 of it's energy output through renewables.

You don't like it? Tough fuck for you.

What is "ill-though"? I guess you ain't got a spell checker or you simply ignore the squiggly red-lines that point out your grammar errors. If your ignorant of or ignore the simple how could you possibly know anything of Wind Power?

I assure you my post is well thought out, first and foremost I figured if you simply got angry and failed to actually address any of my points, your not really smart, so I figured I would point this out.

I live 10 kilometers from a wind farm that works perfectly

Sure you do, that makes you an expert.

75% of Germany's energy comes from Renewables? More bullshit, does this even need to be addressed? German's goal was to reach 60% by 2050, according to Statistikhengst the Germans already reached a target they think they can't reach until 2050?

Hitler was the only bad guy in Germany as well, all was perfect before Hitler was born, there were no Ghettos nor laws passed against the Jews,

The fools are easily fooled. Its too bad that so many of these idiots are Politicians who force these projects on the public with nothing less than pure lies and deceit.

I shake my head in disgust when I see the level of stupidity we are up against.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Stat: You really gonna insist on believing that ....

It is a fact that Germany is now achieving 3/4 of it's energy output through renewables.

That happened for a few hours ONE DAY. And a couple days before that, virtually nothing. You cannot run a modern industrialized society on bad investments like that.

And you are still missing the point, because you want to miss the point, which I have already explained TWICE now.

 

[Old Rocks]

The idea of logic is an anthema to Elektra, Flatcern, Westwall, SSDD, and others. Opinion is all that matters to them. The fact that there are people on this board successfully using solar to eliminate their electrical bills, and provide emergency power in case of grid failure means nothing to them. All they see is that a lardass on the radio says solar is bad, therefore it is bad.

But the future arrives, no matter how they kick and scream. And in a short time, their existance and opinions are not even remembered as we move past them on to a better future in spite of them.

 

[flacaltenn]

The idea of logic is an anthema to Elektra, Flatcern, Westwall, SSDD, and others. Opinion is all that matters to them. The fact that there are people on this board successfully using solar to eliminate their electrical bills, and provide emergency power in case of grid failure means nothing to them. All they see is that a lardass on the radio says solar is bad, therefore it is bad.

But the future arrives, no matter how they kick and scream. And in a short time, their existance and opinions are not even remembered as we move past them on to a better future in spite of them.

That leaves you guys CONDONING public misrepresentations and fraud like this OP.
The same way that GoldiRocks keeps shilling those Installed Power figures for wind and solar when HE KNOWS that what is produced on a yearly basis is a mere 1/3 of that..

Tsk Tsk..

 

[elektra]

I have solar and power my house 100% with it. everything is electric, including heat and stove. I haven't seen a utility bill in 4 years other than a credit for surplus i've produced

Wow, seems great. A few questions if you do not mind.

Can I have the name of the system, model number? Who built it. Can you take some pics and post them?

Can I know roughly, where your house is, in a city, in the country, on a farm?

How many square feet is your house.

Do you use air conditioning all summer, all day and all night?

How much did it cost, did you get tax credits? How was it paid for? Lease, Bought, Rented? Financed.

How much surplus do you generate, in KWH's?

my house is rated net zero. yep, I use heat, AC what ever as needed. all year long all night and day. I generate about 2500 kwh surplus per year. the house is in a suburb. the system is owned. I installed the panels, the electrical hookups as required by law were done by a licensed electrician and hook up to the grid by the power company. I have a 2nd system on the house which is off the grid and has battery storage. all that powers now is the all season porch but I have lines run to all critical equipment in the event of a long term power failure. but for the most part that system is back up and is not currently powering heat, AC or appliances .

What is the name of and the model number of your system, how much did it cost?
What is the name of the batteries? How many are there?

Can we see pics of everything.

I am not challenging you, I seriously would like to know, I would love to see everything, some simple pics, names of stuff, what it cost, how much maintenance is required.

Is the surplus 2500 kwh every year? Is it that exactly? Is that surplus generated strictly in the summer?

How many days can you go without sun before you start to worry?

 

[elektra]

The idea of logic is an anthema to Elektra, Flatcern, Westwall, SSDD, and others. Opinion is all that matters to them. The fact that there are people on this board successfully using solar to eliminate their electrical bills, and provide emergency power in case of grid failure means nothing to them. All they see is that a lardass on the radio says solar is bad, therefore it is bad.

But the future arrives, no matter how they kick and scream. And in a short time, their existance and opinions are not even remembered as we move past them on to a better future in spite of them.

Only an idiot would thank this post, Old Crock.

Old Crock, all you have stated is Solar is good, the literal tactic you claim others of using.

Further, idiot, what is "existance"?

I guess the other idiot thanked your poor spelling or the other idiot just likes people who are mean, bitter, close-minded fools.

 

[Shrimpbox]

Pogo, "we have met the enemy and they is us" A very apt statement for many on this board. Your post on the birds is such a softball thrown my way I can't resist, even though I don't have anything against windmills, in fact when seen up close they are technological marvels. Where I get very upset in this debate is when we creat an environmental two tiered justice system which means we have no justice at all.

If you want to have dueling statistic debates check out bald eagles and windmills, that is if you are curious enough. One article has the combined bat and bird mortality at 1.4 million, a far cry from forty thousand, oh and don't forget that mortality statistics for windmills are compiled by the wind power people. Bald and golden eagle mortality does not even include the worst offender in California. Ok and now let's extrapolate if the wind industry increases ten fold or even 100 fold like all you guys want. That means using your lowball figures we would go to 400,000 and then to 4 million mortality, but you guys will probably claim climate change will kill more birds than that.

Now, let's,point out one of your tactics, which I totally agree with. You claim that the amount of birds killed is insignificant in the scheme of things,rightly insinuating that any form of energy production will have some collateral damage. That sounds sane except that it doesn't work that way I real life. If the govt doesn't like you they want a 100 per cent survival rates, and I don't need to cite any sites because I have lived with this kind of govt overreach for decades as a shrimper. The govt has devasted gulf coast communities by de facto shutting down rec fishing for red snapper and grouper. The rec red snapper season in fed waters is 9 days, 9 DAYS. What a joke. And this is after twenty years of fed management. Needless to say there are beaucoup snapper out there. The point I am making is that whole portions of the economy can be shut down for environmental reasons, but if is the presidents pet project all the environmental rules can go by the wayside. Just plain lawlessness.

Killing an eagle is against the law. 250,000 fine and possible two years in jail. Not if you are getting huge subsidies from the taxpayer and building wind farms.

Another fallacy of your post pogo is that windmills kill a disproportionate amount of the raptor class birds. So we can introduce environmental dogma which says when you remove the predators at the top of the food chain you radically change the wildlife dynamic.(see post under environment about Yellowstone wolves). So maybe you get too many prairie dogs or mice. No one knows what the unintended consequences will be. Do giant wind farms alter the behavior of birds or other animals? Do new power lines run to windmill sites kill even more birds? Do any wavelengths created by windmills run off big game? Could giant wind farms change precipitation patterns? Who knows.


So pogo I am not against clean energy or windmills at all. But there must be a level playing field. If a law is good enough for me then it is good enough for everyone else or we don't need that law. If green energy is just going to be a taxpayer funded slush fund for democratic donors then we don't need it. If wind and solar and ethanol can't stand on their own two feet then their time has not come yet. I have total faith that with time technology will solve our problems if we let technology find its own way without govt controls, but everyone has to play by the same rules.


P.S. Another point I should have included in the previous post is that the cost of the new home energy technology is coming down so fast the average guy says again, I'll just wait til it is cheaper, and postpones the purchase.

 

[Pogo]

Wow dood. Thanks for this post. I sometimes worry I'm too long-winded. After reading this I don't feel that so much.

It really really helps if you use the quote function so we all know what you're referring to, rather than have to open another page in another tab and keep switching back and forth. So here, I'll merge them for you this time...

As one who is not at all versed on the inside baseball of green energy, let me forward a hypothesis about how regular people see this. I believe everyone wants to do what is right for the planet, but the pace of technology is so fast that many of us fear any of these new systems will be obsolete before they are done being installed. Batteries are getting better every day(or so we are being told), solar efficiency is increasing every day(or so we are being told), and fusion is right around the corner negating any need for the previous two. Windmills are killing a lot of birds and don't seem to have to follow the same environmental protocols oil companies or fishermen do when it comes to the environment. Remember that oil soaked pelican during the bp oil spill? What if someone showed a tractor trailer sized mound of dead birds that the windmills did in?

so many regular people say I think I will just wait a bit. Solyndra and the new governor of Virginia make a lot of us think this is just another scam to get our money in the name of the world coming to an end, again. Please forgive us our ignorance.

For the curious it's not hard to find this stuff out. How much is "a lot"? Some perspective:


Man-made structure/technology -- Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)

Feral and domestic cats ---- Hundreds of millions [source: AWEA]
Power lines ---- 130 million to 174 million [source: AWEA]
Windows (residential and commercial) --- 100 million to 1 billion [source: TreeHugger]
Pesticides -- 70 million [source: AWEA]
Automobiles --- 60 million to 80 million [source: AWEA]
Lighted communication towers -- 40 million to 50 million [source: AWEA]
Wind turbines ---- 10,000 to 40,000 [source: ABC]

>> Collisions with wind turbines account for about one-tenth of a percent of all "unnatural" bird deaths in the United States each year. << (table and text from this page)

No, wind turbines are not subject to the same environmental regulations as oil -- of course not. They don't pollute. That's the whole point. That, and not needing fuel.

Pogo, "we have met the enemy and they is us" A very apt statement for many on this board.

I've never made that statement. You did. I know where you're taking it from but it's got nothing to do with any of this. Moving on...

Your post on the birds is such a softball thrown my way I can't resist, even though I don't have anything against windmills, in fact when seen up close they are technological marvels. Where I get very upset in this debate is when we creat an environmental two tiered justice system which means we have no justice at all.

If you want to have dueling statistic debates check out bald eagles and windmills, that is if you are curious enough. One article has the combined bat and bird mortality at 1.4 million, a far cry from forty thousand, oh and don't forget that mortality statistics for windmills are compiled by the wind power people.

Actually that number is from the American Bird Conservancy. It's right there in my link. If anything I would think the bird conservancy would have an interest in conserving birds, so I wouldn't expect their figures to be on the light side. And the table as a whole came from the site "How Stuff Works", which again isn't a wind advocate but AFAIK a neutral site.

I don't know, or have a way to know, what the accurate relevant numbers are. I just think the concern needs a bit more exactitude than "windmills are killing a lot of birds". And I'm a birder myself btw.

The question of a "two-tiered justice system" is exactly what I was going after there. We hear the mantra "wind turbines are killing a lot of birds" (they're turbines, not windmills) but have we ever heard the same about power lines? Or pesticides? How many cell phone towers have gone up in the last 20 years? Why did we never hear the concern that "towers are killing a lot of birds"? That makes me wonder about who's leading the conversation -- and what they would have to gain from leading it this way or that way.

Bald and golden eagle mortality does not even include the worst offender in California. Ok and now let's extrapolate if the wind industry increases ten fold or even 100 fold like all you guys want. That means using your lowball figures we would go to 400,000 and then to 4 million mortality, but you guys will probably claim climate change will kill more birds than that.

Whoa, hold up Homer. I didn't take a position on either wind generators or climate change. You're quick on the assumptions. I'm asking questions that need to be asked. Maybe you should be too?

Now, let's,point out one of your tactics, which I totally agree with. You claim that the amount of birds killed is insignificant in the scheme of things,rightly insinuating that any form of energy production will have some collateral damage.

That wasn't really the point; it's part of the point, but the main thrust of that post is to compare "apples to apples". If wind turbines kill X amount of birds, or destroy X amount of habitats, we don't know what that means absent a comparison of how many birds those cellphone towers and those power lines and pesticides --- technologies that we have already accepted and integrated into our world -- are already killing. We already know we're dangerous to wildlife; we already know we encroach on Nature and have been doing so since the Industrial Revolution. What I'm looking for here is context. And when I hear such a question brought up that was never brought up for those other technologies, even though we already know the effect exists, that's when I start getting suspicious and looking for answers.

That sounds sane except that it doesn't work that way I real life. If the govt doesn't like you they want a 100 per cent survival rates, and I don't need to cite any sites because I have lived with this kind of govt overreach for decades as a shrimper. The govt has devasted gulf coast communities by de facto shutting down rec fishing for red snapper and grouper. The rec red snapper season in fed waters is 9 days, 9 DAYS. What a joke. And this is after twenty years of fed management. Needless to say there are beaucoup snapper out there.

I have no possible comment here; I know nothing about shrimping except that it's a tough job, so my hat is off to you for your work. I did start a thread on a somewhat related area that I'd love to see your opinion on and I'll edit a link to it. But your greater point is governmental control over these things so we continue...

The point I am making is that whole portions of the economy can be shut down for environmental reasons, but if is the presidents pet project all the environmental rules can go by the wayside. Just plain lawlessness.

This is kind of a vague statement, and I'm not even sure what it means. You're saying the President can waive envrironmental regulations?

Killing an eagle is against the law. 250,000 fine and possible two years in jail. Not if you are getting huge subsidies from the taxpayer and building wind farms.

Not sure what this last sentence means either but the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act prohibits "the take, possession, sale, purchase, barter, offer to sell, purchase or barter, transport, export or import", and Take" includes pursue, shoot, shoot at, poison, wound, kill, capture, trap, collect, molest or disturb". Have you "killed" an eagle that flew into your wind turbine blade? Have you actively "killed" a bird that flew into your window or got taken out by your cat? Has the power company "killed" the eagles that fly into its power lines? These are the top three bird killers according to those figures (here's another article on power lines).

And about those "getting huge subsidies from the taxpayer".... you know who else got huge subsides from the taxpayer (WAY huger)? The nuclear power industry. And I believe Big Oil. And a lot of other things in the world of infrastructure. Let's not pretend this is something new, K? Government subsidizes a LOT of things (including the Coast Guard in your workplace) and sometimes, if it's to nurture a new technology that might be poised to benefit the greater good, it needs to. Again, looking for context here.

Another fallacy of your post pogo is that windmills kill a disproportionate amount of the raptor class birds. So we can introduce environmental dogma which says when you remove the predators at the top of the food chain you radically change the wildlife dynamic.(see post under environment about Yellowstone wolves). So maybe you get too many prairie dogs or mice. No one knows what the unintended consequences will be. Do giant wind farms alter the behavior of birds or other animals? Do new power lines run to windmill sites kill even more birds? Do any wavelengths created by windmills run off big game? Could giant wind farms change precipitation patterns? Who knows.

No shit. That's my purpose in asking the same questions.

I said nothing about raptors; that was Flacaltenn. I'm not maintaining that wind turbines do or do not kill a significant number of raptors. That's part of the questioning process of fleshing out the vague statement "windmillls kill a lot of birds". That's just not nearly specific enough for me.

So pogo I am not against clean energy or windmills at all. But there must be a level playing field. If a law is good enough for me then it is good enough for everyone else or we don't need that law. If green energy is just going to be a taxpayer funded slush fund for democratic donors then we don't need it. If wind and solar and ethanol can't stand on their own two feet then their time has not come yet. I have total faith that with time technology will solve our problems if we let technology find its own way without govt controls, but everyone has to play by the same rules.

"Taxpayer funded slush fund for democratic [sic] donors"? Wtf are you talking about? We're not even talking about 'laws' yet, let alone the politicians who would make them, let alone the donors who support them; you're getting waaaay ahead of yourself here. We haven't even established what's up with the birds, pun intended. Someone seems to have an agenda in his pocket.

P.S. Another point I should have included in the previous post is that the cost of the new home energy technology is coming down so fast the average guy says again, I'll just wait til it is cheaper, and postpones the purchase.

I'll defer to someone more knowledgeable like Spoonman on that. I love what Spoon is doing with his home, taking responsibility for his own energy. I like decentralized.

I originally came to this thread to wag my finger at the naysayers who bend over backward to find fault with any new idea with the tired old "it'll never work" mantra. You raised the bird question, and I figure if we're going there we should know exactly what we're talking about before we start making judgments on the question. "That will never work" and "these are killing a lot of birds" are two statements that I find wholly unsatisfactory. I need to know why and why not.

Thanks for your thoughts on this Shrimpbox. I'll come back and edit the related article I referred to.

Edit: Here's the article I referred to. And I know shrimp aren't scallops but would invite your thoughts over in that thread. Cheers

 

[flacaltenn]

Excuses.. Wind Farms are denial of habitat for raptors and bats. Other power plants are not.
These are highly territorial birds that will be decimated in number by trying to remain there.

And other energy companies are being dragged to court and FINED by the Feds, while these wind operations get waivers for killing 100s of our national symbol AND get help covering up the dead bodies.

Prettty simple to sniff out the massive hypocrisy there..

 

[Pogo]

Excuses.. Wind Farms are denial of habitat for raptors and bats. Other power plants are not.
These are highly territorial birds that will be decimated in number by trying to remain there.

And other energy companies are being dragged to court and FINED by the Feds, while these wind operations get waivers for killing 100s of our national symbol AND get help covering up the dead bodies.

Prettty simple to sniff out the massive hypocrisy there..

Sorry, but neither hypocrisy nor ipse dixit are validated by unlinked "because I said so" posts.

I learned looooong ago that once one goes onto the internet, one's home state becomes Missouri, if you catch my meaning.

 

[flacaltenn]

When's the last time an eagle hit your window? or a hawk or owl? Or a bat? NO ONE is griping about songbirds and migratories.

The eco-nuts talking about cars and buildings are useless to enviro issues because they don't even understand the importance of WHAT SPECIES are adversely affected or how this denies habitat for CERTAIN species..

 

[Pogo]

The People here are so ignorant, some think the German/European system of using 230 vac is best (which shows ignorance of electricity) So how can anything this user states be taken seriously.

People are speaking how easy it is to power their homes, which I find ridiculous in light of the heavy subsidies which these people never admit too, nor do they really the cost. I have a landlord installed solar hot water heater system on my home, it sucks in the winter, barely warms the water, in the summer its great but I see zero saving on the electric bill. Zero. So who really understands or admits the truth?

sounds like its a passive system, not photovoltaic. there is a big difference

Entirely different. What Elektra refers to is a hot water system -- probably far simpler to set up than an electrical system but what Spoon has is the latter -- photovoltaic cells generating electrical energy (not just heat). Just because both work on sunlight, that doesn't make them the same thing or even similar things. So Elektra before you start calling people liars check and see if you even know what you're talking about.

 

[Pogo]

When's the last time an eagle hit your window? or a hawk or owl? Or a bat? NO ONE is griping about songbirds and migratories.

The eco-nuts talking about cars and buildings are useless to enviro issues because they don't even understand the importance of WHAT SPECIES are adversely affected or how this denies habitat for CERTAIN species..

Again, you're not making a point here. You have a picture of a dead bird wrapped in appeal to emotion. There's no information in the post.

And I might add, ad hominem. Why are you wasting our time with this bullshit? If you have a point, whip it out already. Your own handle thingy says "not a spectator sport". Live up to that.

 

[flacaltenn]

Excuses.. Wind Farms are denial of habitat for raptors and bats. Other power plants are not.
These are highly territorial birds that will be decimated in number by trying to remain there.

And other energy companies are being dragged to court and FINED by the Feds, while these wind operations get waivers for killing 100s of our national symbol AND get help covering up the dead bodies.

Prettty simple to sniff out the massive hypocrisy there..

Sorry, but neither hypocrisy nor ipse dixit are validated by unlinked "because I said so" posts.

I learned looooong ago that once one goes onto the internet, one's home state becomes Missouri, if you catch my meaning.

\

Wow Pogo -- We betting again so soon after your last loss yesterday.. You need to read my sig line again. Why is it that all of the most opinionated folks seem to be behind and need tutoring on the issue?

Be specific about what I alleged that you think I'm bluffing on and I'll help ya out..

 

[Pogo]

Excuses.. Wind Farms are denial of habitat for raptors and bats. Other power plants are not.
These are highly territorial birds that will be decimated in number by trying to remain there.

And other energy companies are being dragged to court and FINED by the Feds, while these wind operations get waivers for killing 100s of our national symbol AND get help covering up the dead bodies.

Prettty simple to sniff out the massive hypocrisy there..

Sorry, but neither hypocrisy nor ipse dixit are validated by unlinked "because I said so" posts.

I learned looooong ago that once one goes onto the internet, one's home state becomes Missouri, if you catch my meaning.

\

Wow Pogo -- We betting again so soon after your last loss yesterday.. You need to read my sig line again. Why is it that all of the most opinionated folks seem to be behind and need tutoring on the issue?

Be specific about what I alleged that you think I'm bluffing on and I'll help ya out..

Wow, what part of "you haven't made a point" -- doesn't make a point?

You know what ipse dixit means, right? Well I need something a wee bit stronger than simply your say-so that what you claim is going on, IS going on. Where's the beef?

Or as the site puts it:

While you're working on that rest assured I had no "loss" yesterday. Even my baseball team won, and that's not too common

 

[flacaltenn]

You need not make this personal Pogo. What assertion do you not believe? That Wind companies are getting waivers to slaughter 1000s of raptures whilst the Feds are prosecuting and fining other energy companies for the death of a few raptors?

Or that the issues is not NUMBER of kills, but types of species especially affected by wind installations to the point of extinguishing their habitat?

Or is the problem that you just haven't been following this issue?

 

[flacaltenn]

Wind Farm Bird Deaths Stir Concerns In The U.S.

CONVERSE COUNTY, Wyo. (AP) &#8212; It happens about once a month here, on the barren foothills of one of America's green-energy boomtowns: A soaring golden eagle slams into a wind farm's spinning turbine and falls, mangled and lifeless, to the ground.

Killing these iconic birds is not just an irreplaceable loss for a vulnerable species. It's also a federal crime, a charge that the Obama administration has used to prosecute oil companies when birds drown in their waste pits, and power companies when birds are electrocuted by their power lines.

But the administration has never fined or prosecuted a wind-energy company, even those that flout the law repeatedly. Instead, the government is shielding the industry from liability and helping keep the scope of the deaths secret.

More than 573,000 birds are killed by the country's wind farms each year, including 83,000 hunting birds such as hawks, falcons and eagles, according to an estimate published in March in the peer-reviewed Wildlife Society Bulletin.


Getting precise figures is impossible because many companies aren't required to disclose how many birds they kill. And when they do, experts say, the data can be unreliable.

When companies voluntarily report deaths, the Obama administration in many cases refuses to make the information public, saying it belongs to the energy companies or that revealing it would expose trade secrets or implicate ongoing enforcement investigations.

Nearly all the birds being killed are protected under federal environmental laws, which prosecutors have used to generate tens of millions of dollars in fines and settlements from businesses, including oil and gas companies, over the past five years.

"We are all responsible for protecting our wildlife, even the largest of corporations," Colorado U.S. Attorney David M. Gaouette said in 2009 when announcing Exxon Mobil had pleaded guilty and would pay $600,000 for killing 85 birds in five states, including Wyoming.

For wind power, U.S. extends permit for eagle deaths | The Morning Sentinel, Waterville, ME

WASHINGTON &#8212; The Obama administration will allow companies to seek authorization to kill and harm bald and golden eagles for up to 30 years without penalty in an effort to balance some of the environmental trade-offs of green energy.

The Associated Press

The change, requested by the wind energy industry and officially revealed Friday, will provide legal protection for the lifespan of wind farms and other projects that obtain a permit and do everything possible to avoid killing the birds. Companies will also have to commit to take additional measures if they exceed their permit limits or if new information suggests eagle populations are being affected.

But the rule makes clear that revoking a permit is a last resort.

&#8220;We anticipate that implementing additional mitigation measures ... will reduce the likelihood of amendments to, or revocation of, the permit,&#8221; the rule reads.

Right now, as an AP investigation has documented, wind farms are killing eagles in violation of the law. Not a single wind energy company has a permit authorizing the killing, harm or harassment of eagles, although five-year permits have been available since 2009. That puts companies at legal risk and discourages private investment in renewable energy.

It also doesn&#8217;t help eagles, since without a permit, companies are not required to take steps to reduce their impact on the birds or report when they kill them.

Conservation groups, which have been aligned with the wind industry on other issues, said Friday the decision by the Interior Department sanctioned the killing of America&#8217;s symbol.

&#8220;Instead of balancing the need for conservation and renewable energy, Interior wrote the wind industry a blank check,&#8221; Audubon President and CEO David Yarnold said in a statement. The group said it would challenge the decision.

So that you can get educated without us derailing this thread --- let's continue this HERE...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/environment/328213-pardons-2-turkeys-signs-death-warrant-for-1000-eagles.html#post8258372

 

[Trinnity]

Again, you're not making a point here. You have a picture of a dead bird wrapped in appeal to emotion. There's no information in the post.

There's plenty. Those windmills are bird killers. Fact.