Genetic bottleneck and Noah's ark

[Hollie]

If one uses the bible the only conclusion you can come to is that Noah was Black. There is no way in hell a white family is going to give rise to the Black people in Africa. Recessive genes dont make dominant ones. Its the other way around. Before the white supremacist model came into being the ME was considered part of Africa by the Greeks.

Good job, Man

View attachment 341419

Westerners are much more comfortable with the white guy they invented as the jeebus.

View attachment 341540

As your illustration illustrates, there are no white races. Or black races for that matter.

But what about flowers? Daylily varieties approach both white and black as well, but no pure white or pure black daylily flowers have been bred so far.

Back to topic: Noah may have brought some daylilies onto the ark including bare root for later planting as well as small seedlings more easily fit in the c. 333 window boxes. I propose seedlings 6'' apart in one of the rows of 3 window boxes and 4 full grown daylilies in bloom, in one row 1 foot apart in each of 3 other window boxes. The latter will be on the inner edge of the boxes with leaves trailing over the inner edge into the 6' high gardening path (the other 9 feet will be for mostly mushroom gardens though the top of these may have extremely shade tolerant plants like philodendron, snake plant and ivy. Plenty of cream of mushroom soup on Noah's ark! Not to mention salads with mushrooms, mushroom topped Pizza, etc.

Most daylily cultivars today are bred for color - but there are highly fragrant varieties as well. They are shade tolerant but for best blooms considerable light is necessary. Some continue blooming at night - but, as their name suggests, most bloom only during daylight - each flower lasts just one day but there are many buds on each flower spike. Note:

Edible Daylilies - Identifying and Gathering Edible Day Lilies

Edible daylilies, Hemerocallis fulva, grow wild in most of the US. You can eat the flowers, flower buds, young stalks and tubers.

honest-food.net

"
Photo by Holly A. Heyser
Daylilies are not only edible, they are spectacular. After sampling the flowers, flower buds, young stalks and root tubers, I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re so tasty I may grow them as a food crop.

Let me start by saying that edible daylilies are the common daylily, Hemerocallis fulva, as well as its various Hemerocallis friends and relatives; there are thousands. What I am most definitely not talking about are bona fide lilies, like the Easter lily, which, if you are unfortunate enough to eat, you had better hope that the Resurrection is real…"

A few cultivars from:

Products Archive

www.gilberthwild.com

Daylily Bela Lugosi




Daylily Always Afternoon


Daylily Belle Cook


Daylily August Frost


Daylily Tiger Blood

And there are near black varieties as well.

Pretty pictures. Is there a point?

As for flower boxes on the Ark, that's problematic as there is no evidence of a global flood a few thousand years ago, no evidence of any Ark and no evidence of any designer gods who magically made it rain for more than a month.

But other than that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If one uses the bible the only conclusion you can come to is that Noah was Black. There is no way in hell a white family is going to give rise to the Black people in Africa. Recessive genes dont make dominant ones. Its the other way around. Before the white supremacist model came into being the ME was considered part of Africa by the Greeks.

Good job, Man

View attachment 341419

Westerners are much more comfortable with the white guy they invented as the jeebus.

View attachment 341540

As your illustration illustrates, there are no white races. Or black races for that matter.

But what about flowers? Daylily varieties approach both white and black as well, but no pure white or pure black daylily flowers have been bred so far.

Back to topic: Noah may have brought some daylilies onto the ark including bare root for later planting as well as small seedlings more easily fit in the c. 333 window boxes. I propose seedlings 6'' apart in one of the rows of 3 window boxes and 4 full grown daylilies in bloom, in one row 1 foot apart in each of 3 other window boxes. The latter will be on the inner edge of the boxes with leaves trailing over the inner edge into the 6' high gardening path (the other 9 feet will be for mostly mushroom gardens though the top of these may have extremely shade tolerant plants like philodendron, snake plant and ivy. Plenty of cream of mushroom soup on Noah's ark! Not to mention salads with mushrooms, mushroom topped Pizza, etc.

Most daylily cultivars today are bred for color - but there are highly fragrant varieties as well. They are shade tolerant but for best blooms considerable light is necessary. Some continue blooming at night - but, as their name suggests, most bloom only during daylight - each flower lasts just one day but there are many buds on each flower spike. Note:

Edible Daylilies - Identifying and Gathering Edible Day Lilies

Edible daylilies, Hemerocallis fulva, grow wild in most of the US. You can eat the flowers, flower buds, young stalks and tubers.

honest-food.net

"
Photo by Holly A. Heyser
Daylilies are not only edible, they are spectacular. After sampling the flowers, flower buds, young stalks and root tubers, I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re so tasty I may grow them as a food crop.

Let me start by saying that edible daylilies are the common daylily, Hemerocallis fulva, as well as its various Hemerocallis friends and relatives; there are thousands. What I am most definitely not talking about are bona fide lilies, like the Easter lily, which, if you are unfortunate enough to eat, you had better hope that the Resurrection is real…"

A few cultivars from:

Products Archive

www.gilberthwild.com

Daylily Bela Lugosi




Daylily Always Afternoon


Daylily Belle Cook


Daylily August Frost


Daylily Tiger Blood

And there are near black varieties as well.

The evolution of lillies is well studied. No magic required.

 

[surada]

Well, I see most you are not into organic gardening since my posts on organic gardening on Noah's ark have not been responded to. Maybe I should transfer to a thread in the gardening forum section - what do you all think?

Perhaps some of you are into food? Noah and his family had to bring food onto the ark as well - all kinds of food!

Genesis 6:21,22
For your part, you are to collect and take with you every kind of food to eat,+ to serve as food for you and for the animals.”
22 And Noah did according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so.+

Every kind of food - yum! Note that all animals and man were only authorized to eat vegetation - see Genesis 1:29,30. Good thing, because vegetarian manures are excellent fertilizers for those window boxes!

Now, it may be that Noah brought 2 Apple pies onto the ark (or 7?) but how would they have apple pies for a whole year? Apple pies are perishable - no doubt they had a veritable feast for a week with perishable foods. And there are foods like tomatoes that can last for up to a month as they can ripen over that time period. Other fruits can last longer - including apples. But a year is pushing it for apples!

I think the answer for pies is jellies and jams. Sugar is a good preservative - including honey. So is salt. I think Noah likely brought plenty of honey onto the ark. Honey can easily last a full year.

And perishable is relative. Most fruits can be made to 'perish' by fermentation into all kinds of alchoholic beverages! Not sure how much wine or other fermented drinks Noah brought onto the ark.

There are also dried fruits that keep well - raisins, prunes, dates, figs, apricots, etc.

And, like honey, they take less space. I mean, how much wine could fit into 1,400,000 cubic feet of space???

Flower boxes? They would have been up to their necks in manure.

 

[abu afak]

"Could the Ark Have Held All the Animals?

It is true that encyclopedias refer to over a million species of animals. But Noah was instructed to preserve only representatives of every “kind” of land animal and flying creature. Some investigators have said that just 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles could have produced the great variety of species of these creatures that are known today. The ark had about 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) of usable space—ample for the passenger list"

I will go with that conservative estimate of 1,400,000 cubic feet. Let us also assume that there were 1,000 animals on the ark - also obviously a round number for easier math. I almost forgot: also 8 humans!

Now. let us assume the average size of animal was that of a rabbit. Obviously ants, crickets and mice were much smaller while horses, bison elephants and Giraffes were much larger.

Most insects would not need separate compartments - but clearly termites would be in interior dead wood from rootless trees (apple, peach, mango, etc) and branches for bird perching, monkey climbing, etc. No, Noah was smart enough to keep termites away from walls and floors.

Ants and other insects would likely be in the window boxes (more on that later) while earthworms (etc.) would be in the compost (e.g. horse manure and cow manure). Moles would likely be in one of the 4 corner larger tree window boxes.

Rabbits and other similar size animals would not require 15 foot high compartments - the height of each of the 3 decks. They would probably be happy with 3 foot high compartments - hence 5 tiers per deck - and about 10 feet by 10 feet compartments (= 300 cubic feet for each pair of rabbit size animals.

Very heavy animals would likely be on the lowest deck. Most of them would be happy with 15' high or less compartments. However, the giraffes would be up to 20 feet high - my model would have their compartment extending into the middle deck - more on that later as well.

Of course, there would be other animals larger than rabbits but smaller than horses. There could be 3 tiers of 5 foot high compartments for animals like bears, cats, dogs, etc. Kangeroos, like Giraffes, would be in middle lowest section without a floor/ceiling between the lower and middle decks. Kangeeroos would not be in a compartment - they will jump around wherever they wish to go within the the bounds of the 30 foot high middle sector. The middle sector would have a 20 foot wide, 450 foot long sloped runway for animals to run around and have fun. More on this later.

The walls of the comparments will be made of hay and straw - an average of 3 feet thick but up to 12 feet thick for cows, etc.. As the year progressed, the walls would thin out as animals ate the walls. For example, cows would eat one foot of their walls per month. There would also be some vertical beams.

You all can calculate how many compartments could be along the 25 foot wide edge sections of the ark.

In my next post, I will have fun with the window boxes - humor is welcome on this thread.

Just elephants, their feeding, drinking, and dung.

Many sites: ""Adult elephants require an enormous amount of food. Elephants may spend 12-18 hours a day feeding. Adult elephants can eat between 200-600 pounds of food a day. As herbivores, elephants consume grasses, tree foliage, bark, twigs, and other vegetation daily. Elephants can also drink up to 50 gallons of water a day about as much as a standard bathtub holds.""
(Someone mentioned planter boxes under tiny windows with it cloudy and raining for 40 days: LOL. )

So two elephants a day Alone need app 800 lbs x 40 days or 32,000 lbs of food.

and 100 gallons of water x 40 = 4000 gallons = another 32,000 lbs.

Thy poop 8-12 times day each producing 300lbs of Dung x2= 600lbs x 40 days = 24,000 lbs.
That confined would pile up very quickly without a giant amount of dedicated/Not stall or 'just fit' space.
Probably needing app 1 of the arks 3 floors just for them. (app 450x75)

Not to mention Dinosaurs, Rhinos, Giraffes, horse (kinds), Large antelope, Hippos, Gorillas: (meat for) LIONS, Crocodiles, etc, etc, etc.
IOW, you'd probably need at least 1,000,000 lbs++? of food (and water) for all the animals of any size.
And daily feeding/scooping of tons of dung. A crew of scores of people.

`

 

[Hollie]

Consider the implication of Noah and his immediate family being tasked with repopulating the planet.

Incestuous and familial relations. We know the dangers with that.

 

[surada]

Consider the implication of Noah and his immediate family being tasked with repopulating the planet.

Incestuous and familial relations. We know the dangers with that.

Its a great, memorable children's story.

 

[Moonglow]

Vegetarian manure is excellent fertilizer for the window boxes.

Only after setting for six months or more to allow the ammonias to dissipate. You can't take crap fresh from an anus and put it on plants they will die.

 

[Moonglow]

Consider the implication of Noah and his immediate family being tasked with repopulating the planet.

Incestuous and familial relations. We know the dangers with that.

And they were all incestuous since Adam and Eve.

 

[Moonglow]

Genetic bottle neck makes sense if the human population was, tens of thousands of years ago, reduced to a few thousands.

It wouldn't make sense if it was reduced to eight people six thousand years ago.

Yeah what with all the colors of humans that one family produced.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Vegetarian manure is excellent fertilizer for the window boxes.

Oh yeah? Which edible plants grow from seed to fruit in 40 days?

Give it up man.

 

[james bond]

Just elephants, their feeding, drinking, and dung.

Many sites: ""Adult elephants require an enormous amount of food. Elephants may spend 12-18 hours a day feeding. Adult elephants can eat between 200-600 pounds of food a day. As herbivores, elephants consume grasses, tree foliage, bark, twigs, and other vegetation daily. Elephants can also drink up to 50 gallons of water a day about as much as a standard bathtub holds.""
(Someone mentioned planter boxes under tiny windows with it cloudy and raining for 40 days: LOL. )

So two elephants a day Alone need app 800 lbs x 40 days or 32,000 lbs of food.

and 100 gallons of water x 40 = 4000 gallons = another 32,000 lbs.

Thy poop 8-12 times day each producing 300lbs of Dung x2= 600lbs x 40 days = 24,000 lbs.
That confined would pile up very quickly without a giant amount of dedicated/Not stall or 'just fit' space.
Probably needing app 1 of the arks 3 floors just for them. (app 450x75)

Not to mention Dinosaurs, Rhinos, Giraffes, horse (kinds), Large antelope, Hippos, Gorillas: (meat for) LIONS, Crocodiles, etc, etc, etc.
IOW, you'd probably need at least 1,000,000 lbs++? of food (and water) for all the animals of any size.
And daily feeding/scooping of tons of dung. A crew of scores of people.

`

You finally found a question you could answer based on your expertise with feces on the brain. Noah and his family weren't running a zoo,, but trying to survive so they had to work and care for the animals, so I'm sure they devised some method.

 

[abu afak]

Scientifically examining the 100+ worldwide flood legends is not logical because these accounts have mythical embellishments not contained in the Biblical account - though these accounts are too similar to be coincidence and likely refer to the same worldwide flood. But the Biblical account can be examined scientifically:

Genesis 6:14-16
Make for yourself an ark* from resinous wood.+ You will make compartments in the ark and cover it with tar*+ inside and outside. 15 This is how you will make it: The ark should be 300 cubits* long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. 16 You will make a window for light* for the ark, one cubit from the top. You should put the entrance of the ark in its side+ and make it with a lower deck, a second deck, and a third deck.

There are various estimates for the length of a cubit, For easier math I have chosen 18" (1.5 feet). On that basis the ark was 45 feet high, 75 feet wide and 450 feet long. How much space is that in cubic feet? Of course, simple math leads to 1,518,750 cubic feet - but some space would have been taken up by beams and walls. Our Bible dictionary has this estimate for usable space:

Flood of Noah’s Day — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"Could the Ark Have Held All the Animals?

It is true that encyclopedias refer to over a million species of animals. But Noah was instructed to preserve only representatives of every “kind” of land animal and flying creature. Some investigators have said that just 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles could have produced the great variety of species of these creatures that are known today. The ark had about 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) of usable space—ample for the passenger list"

I will go with that conservative estimate of 1,400,000 cubic feet. Let us also assume that there were 1,000 animals on the ark - also obviously a round number for easier math. I almost forgot: also 8 humans!

Now. let us assume the average size of animal was that of a rabbit. Obviously ants, crickets and mice were much smaller while horses, bison elephants and Giraffes were much larger.

Most insects would not need separate compartments - but clearly termites would be in interior dead wood from rootless trees (apple, peach, mango, etc) and branches for bird perching, monkey climbing, etc. No, Noah was smart enough to keep termites away from walls and floors.

Ants and other insects would likely be in the window boxes (more on that later) while earthworms (etc.) would be in the compost (e.g. horse manure and cow manure). Moles would likely be in one of the 4 corner larger tree window boxes.

Rabbits and other similar size animals would not require 15 foot high compartments - the height of each of the 3 decks. They would probably be happy with 3 foot high compartments - hence 5 tiers per deck - and about 10 feet by 10 feet compartments (= 300 cubic feet for each pair of rabbit size animals.

Very heavy animals would likely be on the lowest deck. Most of them would be happy with 15' high or less compartments. However, the giraffes would be up to 20 feet high - my model would have their compartment extending into the middle deck - more on that later as well.

Of course, there would be other animals larger than rabbits but smaller than horses. There could be 3 tiers of 5 foot high compartments for animals like bears, cats, dogs, etc. Kangeroos, like Giraffes, would be in middle lowest section without a floor/ceiling between the lower and middle decks. Kangeeroos would not be in a compartment - they will jump around wherever they wish to go within the the bounds of the 30 foot high middle sector. The middle sector would have a 20 foot wide, 450 foot long sloped runway for animals to run around and have fun. More on this later.

The walls of the comparments will be made of hay and straw - an average of 3 feet thick but up to 12 feet thick for cows, etc.. As the year progressed, the walls would thin out as animals ate the walls. For example, cows would eat one foot of their walls per month. There would also be some vertical beams.

You all can calculate how many compartments could be along the 25 foot wide edge sections of the ark.

In my next post, I will have fun with the window boxes - humor is welcome on this thread.

You finally found a question you could answer based on your expertise with feces on the brain. Noah and his family weren't running a zoo,, but trying to survive so they had to work and care for the animals, so I'm sure they devised some method.

I have more areas of expertise than your god-is-the-answer-to-everything brain would ever care about.
I was interested and studied many areas.
Which is why it occurred to me to use my example which showed taking care of just ONE animal is a huge problem and why you had NO ANSWER except "I'm sure they figured it out."
That is/means, You could NOT figure it out/explain it.
You Lost.

Further you Moron, Noah and his family WERE "running a zoo," ostensibly the biggest of all time from a small wood ship!
(the primitives had no idea all the flora/fauna on the planet)
Impossible.

You got Porked again.

`

 

[fncceo]

Yeah what with all the colors of humans that one family produced.

Evolution allows for genetic mutation of melanin levels in response to environment. But ... not from a single family in fewer than 200 human generations.

On the other hand, there is no evidence to assume that Noah's family didn't include wives and children from several different existing races.

Maybe Noah was a playa...

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Evolution allows for genetic mutation of melanin levels in response to environment. But ... not from a single family in fewer than 200 human generations.

On the other hand, there is no evidence to assume that Noah's family didn't include wives and children from several different existing races.

Maybe Noah was a playa...

View attachment 560033

The Tower of Babel incident created all of the subhuman brown people. Because my very moral and ethical Bible tells me so.

 

[fncceo]

The Tower of Babel incident created all of the subhuman brown people. Because my very moral and ethical Bible tells me so.

In the story, Hashem caused a confusion of languages to punish those involved for their hubris.

Come, let us descend and confuse their language, so that one will not understand the language of his companion."		זהָ֚בָה נֵֽרְדָ֔ה וְנָֽבְלָ֥ה שָׁ֖ם שְׂפָתָ֑ם אֲשֶׁר֙ לֹ֣א יִשְׁמְע֔וּ אִ֖ישׁ שְׂפַ֥ת רֵעֵֽהוּ:
And the Lord scattered them from there upon the face of the entire earth, and they ceased building the city.		חוַיָּ֨פֶץ יְהֹוָ֥ה אֹתָ֛ם מִשָּׁ֖ם עַל־פְּנֵ֣י כָל־הָאָ֑רֶץ וַיַּחְדְּל֖וּ לִבְנֹ֥ת הָעִֽיר:
Therefore, He named it Babel, for there the Lord confused the language of the entire earth, and from there the Lord scattered them upon the face of the entire earth.		טעַל־כֵּ֞ן קָרָ֤א שְׁמָהּ֙ בָּבֶ֔ל כִּי־שָׁ֛ם בָּלַ֥ל יְהֹוָ֖ה שְׂפַ֣ת כָּל־הָאָ֑רֶץ וּמִשָּׁם֙ הֱפִיצָ֣ם יְהֹוָ֔ה עַל־פְּנֵ֖י כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

In the story, Hashem caused a confusion of languages to punish those involved for their hubris.

Yep. Yet somehow people used it to argue for slavery, and segregation, and lynching, and no suffrage for blacks, and... Don't they know how to read?

 

[fncceo]

Yep. Yet somehow people used it to argue for slavery, and segregation, and lynching, and no suffrage for blacks, and... Don't they know how to read?

There are a lot of people who read (or have been told) that Darwin's pivotal work, 'Origin of the Species' states that humans evolved directly from apes.

The ignorance of certain readers in no way reflects on the literature.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

There are a lot of people who read (or have been told) that Darwin's pivotal work, 'Origin of the Species' states that humans evolved directly from apes.

The ignorance of certain readers in no way reflects on the literature.

Right. Darwin, fearing that the religious regime of, well, the entire civilized world would cause his ideas to be rejected "sight unseen", pretty much avoided that topic in "On the Origin of Species".

He addressed it later, in the 1871 book "The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex". And even then: “When I publish my book, I can see that I shall meet with universal disapprobation, if not execution” (in a letter to St. George Mivart, April 23, [probably] 1869).

 

[MisterBeale]

Just elephants, their feeding, drinking, and dung.

Many sites: ""Adult elephants require an enormous amount of food. Elephants may spend 12-18 hours a day feeding. Adult elephants can eat between 200-600 pounds of food a day. As herbivores, elephants consume grasses, tree foliage, bark, twigs, and other vegetation daily. Elephants can also drink up to 50 gallons of water a day about as much as a standard bathtub holds.""
(Someone mentioned planter boxes under tiny windows with it cloudy and raining for 40 days: LOL. )

So two elephants a day Alone need app 800 lbs x 40 days or 32,000 lbs of food.

and 100 gallons of water x 40 = 4000 gallons = another 32,000 lbs.

Thy poop 8-12 times day each producing 300lbs of Dung x2= 600lbs x 40 days = 24,000 lbs.
That confined would pile up very quickly without a giant amount of dedicated/Not stall or 'just fit' space.
Probably needing app 1 of the arks 3 floors just for them. (app 450x75)

Not to mention Dinosaurs, Rhinos, Giraffes, horse (kinds), Large antelope, Hippos, Gorillas: (meat for) LIONS, Crocodiles, etc, etc, etc.
IOW, you'd probably need at least 1,000,000 lbs++? of food (and water) for all the animals of any size.
And daily feeding/scooping of tons of dung. A crew of scores of people.

`

After that post, shouldn't it be clear to the mods., that the OP belongs in the Religion and Ethics sub-forum?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The ignorance of certain readers in no way reflects on the literature.

Oh, no doubt. They were simply retrofitting the morality and ethics of the genetic accident of the place and time of their birth to iron age mythology.