Genesis and Reality can not coexist

[no1tovote4]

We probably agree on a lot of things. Just that people tend to jump at me because of the apparent bad reputation I've built around here.

Which is why we continue to discuss. I believe that you will find that people here are reasonable more often than not.

 

[Powerman]

Which is why we continue to discuss. I believe that you will find that people here are reasonable more often than not.

Yeah some people are reasonable here. It's just that the few who aren't reasonable at all must have gotten under my skin. I won't mention any names but some people have no problem spewing lies as truth around here and they need to be called on it.

 

[Hobbit]

Yeah some people are reasonable here. It's just that the few who aren't reasonable at all must have gotten under my skin. I won't mention any names but some people have no problem spewing lies as truth around here and they need to be called on it.

Ya know, I seem to remember this condescending attitude that was mentioned earlier from the start of your membership on this board. Now, I'm not afraid or hesitant to defend my beliefs in an intelligent conversation, but I seem to remember that every time I attempt to with you around, I simply get called an idiot with absolutely no evidence refuting my claims, just a short, "Oh, that's just silly. I can't believe a thinking person could actually believe that. Any amount of intelligence will lead to rejection of belief in a higher power, etc., etc." Try starting a thread saying, "I'm curious, how do you reconcile Genesis with scientific discoveries that have been made." You'll soon see several pages of interesting discussion and you may even learn something if you'll take off your militant atheist hat long enough to listen.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, on with the interesting discussion.

If God created light, it's possible that an omnipotent being could have caused photons to be emitted from everywhere before consolidating it into stellar bodies. Remember, if Genesis is true, then God is omnipotent

There has actually been scientific evidence to back Noah's story. The global climate was much warmer during that time (take that, global warming) and meteorologists studying these conditions have concluded that they created the possibility for a "hypercane," a massive hurricane that makes a cat 5 look like a summer shower. Now, this couldn't have flooded the whole Earth, as there's only so much water to go around. However, It could have covered the Earth as it was known at the time (from the perspective of the Biblical authors), meaning much of the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It would also explain why so many other cultures have a flood story (Gilgamesh, anyone?).

Edit: Forgot to say where I saw that study on the "hypercanes." It was a documentary I saw on a Saturday (when nothing else is on) on either Discovery or TLC, or possibly the History Channel. If I ever find it again, I'll tell you where you can read about it.

 

[KarlMarx]

Photons can emit light but with no sun or starts just how much light do you think there would be? Ever go out at night? Come on man...you're really stretching here.

You assume that the universe was always the same mean temperature as it is now (about 3 degrees Kelvin or about 250 degrees below zero), it hasn't always been that way. Shortly after creation and for millions of years afterwards, the mean temperature of the universe was measured in millions, billions and trillions of degrees. So in such an environment, photons would be produced in abundance.

As for the plant life do you really think that they were referring only to fungi and deep oceanic plant life? I doubt they even knew what that was at the time.

The point is that not all plant life requires light. Your first comment was that plants could not exist because there wasn't any light. I offered some examples to disprove your statement.


You say after the last ice age the mean sea level rose by 400 feet. That's pretty cute. The Bible is inconsistent with this on several levels.

1. The bible claims that the earth didn't even exist before the last ice age. It was allegedly created about 4 thousand years later.

That depends on the meaning of the word "day". From my understanding, the ancient Hebrew word for "day" can also mean "age". Even English uses the word "day" to mean era e.g. "in the day of King Solomon".

2. Let's pretend that 1. isn't true. 400 feet is very high but let's not forget the Bible says that the waters covered the highest mountain with room to spare. Mount everest is somewhere around 29,000 feet above sea level if I'm not mistaken. That's not even close.

You say the story has roots in historical reality. There is some truth to a flood but it was a local river flood according to historians. It was NOT a global flood as depicted in the bible. So like I said it's at least an exaggeration.

No, the end of the last ice age brought about flooding on a global scale. The mean sea level increased by 400 feet, which means that it happened all over the world. As a result, most if not all ancient cultures have a flood account.

You say that saying the bible is not factual is just plain wrong. It may be partially factual but that doesn't make it factual.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Genesis is all a bunch of hocum. Does that make the 10 commandments a bunch of crap too? Perhaps we should all commit adultery, kill, lie and steal just because Noah never existed. That would be called "the end of civilization"....

BTW... all religions are full of crap, if Christianity is. Do you believe that Buddha sat under a Banyan Tree for months at a time without moving? That Mohammed was suddenly taken up to heaven? How about the belief in reincarnation? On the other hand, atheism has done a lot for us, especially as exercised by the Communists, who with no fear of God to stop them, murdered over 100 million people during the course of the last century.

As a wise person once said... "if God didn't exist, it would be necessary for Man to invent Him"

 

[The ClayTaurus]

"if God didn't exist, it would be necessary for Man to invent Him"

A very, very true statement.

 

[5stringJeff]

I understand that some people are fundamentalists and some aren't but you've got to be crazy to think that the book of Genesis is factual. I mean come on...the Catholics don't even believe in it anymore and they invented Christianity.

In the same vein, one could easily post:

I understand that some people are hardcore atheists and some aren't but you've got to be crazy to think that the book of Genesis isn't factual. I mean come on...

 

[Powerman]

"You assume that the universe was always the same mean temperature as it is now (about 3 degrees Kelvin or about 250 degrees below zero), it hasn't always been that way. Shortly after creation and for millions of years afterwards, the mean temperature of the universe was measured in millions, billions and trillions of degrees. So in such an environment, photons would be produced in abundance.
"

If you are going to use science as your basis for discussion on biblical happenings then you run into some trouble. You say shortly after creation. According to science the universe is 13.7 billion years old with an uncertainty of 200 million years. The earth is 4.55 billion years old. So there is a nice 9.15 billion year gap between the earth and universe being created. So this "shortly after creation" nonsense with the photon discussion goes completely out of the window.

 

[Powerman]

Hobbit Wrote:

There has actually been scientific evidence to back Noah's story. The global climate was much warmer during that time (take that, global warming) and meteorologists studying these conditions have concluded that they created the possibility for a "hypercane," a massive hurricane that makes a cat 5 look like a summer shower. Now, this couldn't have flooded the whole Earth, as there's only so much water to go around. However, It could have covered the Earth as it was known at the time (from the perspective of the Biblical authors), meaning much of the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It would also explain why so many other cultures have a flood story (Gilgamesh, anyone?).




I've been trying to say this the whole time. The story is an exaggeration. It may have seemed to the people at the time that the whole earth was covered but obviously this wasn't the case. Like you said, there isn't enough water to go around.

There are several theories as to what happened and apparently the most accepted was there was a local river flood in the area that may have killed about 1000 people when a natural damn broke.

 

[Annie]

Hobbit Wrote:

There has actually been scientific evidence to back Noah's story. The global climate was much warmer during that time (take that, global warming) and meteorologists studying these conditions have concluded that they created the possibility for a "hypercane," a massive hurricane that makes a cat 5 look like a summer shower. Now, this couldn't have flooded the whole Earth, as there's only so much water to go around. However, It could have covered the Earth as it was known at the time (from the perspective of the Biblical authors), meaning much of the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It would also explain why so many other cultures have a flood story (Gilgamesh, anyone?).

There are several theories as to what happened and apparently the most accepted was there was a local river flood in the area that may have killed about 1000 people when a natural damn broke.


I've been trying to say this the whole time. The story is an exaggeration. It may have seemed to the people at the time that the whole earth was covered but obviously this wasn't the case. Like you said, there isn't enough water to go around.

Pman, what I seriously wonder as the 'resident Catholic' and probably the most quasi religious here, is why you have such a burning need to put believers down? You spoke of 'fundamentalists' on your campus getting in your face and screaming at you. I wonder, do you have a tatoo on your forehead saying, "I am an atheist and Christ sucks?" I mean really, they come out of no where and attack you?

There are many devote religious on this board, not one of them has ever tried to convince me that my beliefs are wrong. I may have missed something, but I've not seen any of them do so with you. Speak of their beliefs? Yes. Try to put you down? No. Some are offended at some of what you have posted, so have I been. I am not ignorant by any standard measure, yet my faith, tenuous that it might be, does not make me so, as you have argued over and over. Actually, it is postings like yours that allow one to strengthen in their faith.

Jeff for as long as I've known him always stands up for his beliefs, without putting anyone else down. You could learn something from him.

 

[Powerman]

Pman, what I seriously wonder as the 'resident Catholic' and probably the most quasi religious here, is why you have such a burning need to put believers down? You spoke of 'fundamentalists' on your campus getting in your face and screaming at you. I wonder, do you have a tatoo on your forehead saying, "I am an atheist and Christ sucks?" I mean really, they come out of no where and attack you?

There are many devote religious on this board, not one of them has ever tried to convince me that my beliefs are wrong. I may have missed something, but I've not seen any of them do so with you. Speak of their beliefs? Yes. Try to put you down? No. Some are offended at some of what you have posted, so have I been. I am not ignorant by any standard measure, yet my faith, tenuous that it might be, does not make me so, as you have argued over and over. Actually, it is postings like yours that allow one to strengthen in their faith.

Jeff for as long as I've known him always stands up for his beliefs, without putting anyone else down. You could learn something from him.

Obviously you are not familiar with the people I speak of. I don't look like some crazy Christian hating atheist. I don't have any tattoos, piercings or anything of the sort to speak of. As a matter of fact I would be more than happy to post a picture of myself on this forum if you need proof. Or if you're just curious lol.

I have been condescending on this forum before and I'm trying to be nicer but I don't see why you chose to quote my last post and act as if it was offensive. I was partially agreeing with Hobbit and stating that he was helping prove my point. I don't see how that can be taken as offensive.

But about these fundamentalists I was speaking of. They don't just hate atheists. Hell they don't even know I'm an atheist. They showed up at a Baptist song convention at the Baton Rouge river center for the lone purpose of badgering these people and screaming at them and telling them they are burning in hell. Why you ask? Because they don't believe that it is proper to sing about Jesus. At one point this infuriated man even said or screamed rather: (Shaking the bible at these tennage girls) "YOU SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE JESUS PLAYED GUITAR OR LISTENED TO HIP HOP!!!!"

If you've never come into contact with these people then you are a lucky person. They are ruthles. And in case you were wondering why I was there, I was taking the fundamentals of engineering exam. I witnessed all of this during the 2 hours I was on break.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

So you're going to start a thread and ask for intelligent discussion, yet pre-judge anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot. Why even bother to start the thread in the first place then? You're killin' me here.

Thats some truly funny shit!

 

[Hobbit]

But about these fundamentalists I was speaking of. They don't just hate atheists. Hell they don't even know I'm an atheist. They showed up at a Baptist song convention at the Baton Rouge river center for the lone purpose of badgering these people and screaming at them and telling them they are burning in hell. Why you ask? Because they don't believe that it is proper to sing about Jesus. At one point this infuriated man even said or screamed rather: (Shaking the bible at these tennage girls) "YOU SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE JESUS PLAYED GUITAR OR LISTENED TO HIP HOP!!!!"

Yeah, everybody puts up with those. It hasn't shaken my faith, but it pisses me off that jackasses like this do this, not even realizing how put off people like you are when they do this. Slightly less infuriating is how they tell me I'm going to Hell because I'm in a Christian organization named "Chi Alpha." Their connection? "Chi" and "Alpha" are Greek letters, making the name resemble a fraternity (never mind that they're the Greek initials for "Christ Apostles"). They then quote the verse "Abstain from the very appearance of evil." So, I'm going to Hell because Greek is apparently Satan's language. Who knew?

Back to the Noah thing, I think the flood would have to have been a lot bigger than a dam breaking to inspire flood tales from around Asia Minor. I think the "hypercane" is the best explanation I've seen that fits the both Biblical tale and something scientifically feasible. I think it still fits perfectly in line with the Bible, too, as the Bible often says "the world" when context would lead the reader to assume that the actual meaning was "the known world." Some parts of the Bible are cryptic. Some cannot be easily translated. There's a fine line between literal fanaticism and overly liberal interpretation, but the Bible is not a simple book by any means. I mean, there's an entire series on the History Channel called "Mysteries of the Bible," right?

 

[Gunny]

I understand that some people are fundamentalists and some aren't but you've got to be crazy to think that the book of Genesis is factual. I mean come on...the Catholics don't even believe in it anymore and they invented Christianity.

At least you're consistent.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

First, you start with a question you dont really want answered. You have some need to espout anti religous opinions.

Second, you are in error, you say Catholics started Christianity, Catholicism didnt even exist the first 100 years of Christianity.

Third, you say a person has to be an idiot to believe in Genesis. Well, there are alot of extremely intelligent men in history that have believed in it, including one who may have been the most intelligent of all, Newton, and some very WISE men who believed in it, including the wisest of all, JESUS

 

[The ClayTaurus]

First, you start with a question you dont really want answered. You have some need to espout anti religous opinions.

Second, you are in error, you say Catholics started Christianity, Catholicism didnt even exist the first 100 years of Christianity.

Third, you say a person has to be an idiot to believe in Genesis. Well, there are alot of extremely intelligent men in history that have believed in it, including one who may have been the most intelligent of all, Newton, and some very WISE men who believed in it, including the wisest of all, JESUS

I think you just said Newton was smarter than Jesus.

I always wondered about that, do people think Jesus was really smart, or just really wise?

 

[Powerman]

First, you start with a question you dont really want answered. You have some need to espout anti religous opinions.

Second, you are in error, you say Catholics started Christianity, Catholicism didnt even exist the first 100 years of Christianity.

Third, you say a person has to be an idiot to believe in Genesis. Well, there are alot of extremely intelligent men in history that have believed in it, including one who may have been the most intelligent of all, Newton, and some very WISE men who believed in it, including the wisest of all, JESUS

But these people lived during different times. I'm not so sure Newton would believe it now if he were alive.

 

[Gunny]

OK simple examples of flaws in the book of Genesis.

1. God allegedly created light before he created the light producing objects. Seems silly to me.
2. God also created plantlife before creating the light producing objects. How would the process of photosynthesis take place without the sun?
3. The story of Noah is easily one of the most absurd fallacious and/or exagerrated stories ever.


It's just not a factual book. I'd love to have an 'intelligent' discussion on the matter but anyone who disagrees with me on this one probably isn't the brightest person in the world.

Question: Can you name ONE person whose mind you have changed with your continual ranting against Christianity?

 

[Powerman]

Question: Can you name ONE person whose mind you have changed with your continual ranting against Christianity?

Perhaps a curious lurker? Someone who has never thought of such things before and just assumed them to be true?

Who knows. I enjoy talking about it. This is a message forum. Get over it.

 

[Annie]

I'd love to have an 'intelligent' discussion on the matter but anyone who disagrees with me on this one probably isn't the brightest person in the world.

See post 29. This was the reason for it.

I have been condescending on this forum before and I'm trying to be nicer but I don't see why you chose to quote my last post and act as if it was offensive. I was partially agreeing with Hobbit and stating that he was helping prove my point. I don't see how that can be taken as offensive.

I guess I thought you condescending because of the above. Geewillikers, wonder why? :shocked: Offensive, no, I took no offense.

As for your other comments: No, I've never been screamed at by fundamentalists of any religious persuasion, then again, I feel no need to confront them on differences I may or may not hold with them.

On the other hand, I've given some very snippy replies on several threads, especially regarding the feds getting involved with Schiavo. I've had some not so nice arguments with people I normally agree with and respect, though not on that particular decision. On both sides, opinions flew. For the most part, we worked the differences through-though probably still disagree. There is something to be learned there.

 

[manu1959]

Perhaps a curious lurker? Someone who has never thought of such things before and just assumed them to be true?

Who knows. I enjoy talking about it. This is a message forum. Get over it.

possible.....what would it take for you to change your mind and belive in god?