French regaining military pride

[Toome]

Pretty stupid to underestimate the French. I've worked with their version of Special Forces: no-nonsense, very professional, quite formidable.

It's easy to confuse the politics of the French government with the capabilities of the French military. Don't.

 

[tigerbob]

Its somewhat good for a Nation like france to regain military pride, they re a Nation with a military history that isn't matched by any nation on this planet: They should be proud of their military.

(youtube = french military victories part 1/2)
YouTube - French Military Victories (Part 1/2)


(youtube = french military victories part 2/2)
YouTube - French Military Victories (part 2/2)


Military history of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If sometime in the future the Libyan opposition win and come to power in Tripoli, they might consider a statue to the French president. There could be a Sarkozy Square or even a boulevard named after him.

There is no doubt that the French leader, with his renowned energy, was the key player in driving through a UN resolution that now allows "all necessary measures" to be used to protect civilians in Libya. He was undeterred by a divided EU and a G8 palpably unenthusiastic about any military action.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy

It's not that he acted alone. David Cameron was an ally, working the phones to get the votes in New York. But as Francois Baroin, Sarkozy's spokesman said, it was "the French who led the calls for action". The French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe travelled to New York to lobby the UN ambassadors.

Go back a week ago. The EU was hopelessly split. The Germans were implacably opposed to intervening. To the obvious irritation of the French president, EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton and her team were seen to be briefing against a no-fly zone which they said could not be implemented for weeks. The European heads of government could not even stomach using the words "no fly zone" in a final communique. Likewise a meeting of the G8 in Paris firmly rejected using force.

So what happened? Firstly, the decision by the Arab League to back a no-fly zone was a game changer. It gave the West crucial political cover.

Secondly, it was the rapid counter-offensive by Gaddafi's forces that focused minds, particularly in Washington. The Obama administration had hesitated, reluctant to use its power in another Arab nation. But if Gaddafi won it would have been asked in Washington: "Who lost Libya?" And around the world, Obama would have been seen to have failed the Arab spring.

The French and the British worked on getting key countries like China to abstain, while ensuring other Arab nations like Qatar and the UAE would join any action.

There are some observations that can be made. Without US leadership there is drift. The EU is ill-suited for taking decisive action. To some people it has failed to learn the lessons of the Balkans. It seeks a stronger voice on the world stage but fails to understand the importance of hard power.

We had a situation where some Europeans were frustrated with Washington. Some in the American capital were bemoaning the fact that all this was happening in Europe's back yard - and where was Europe? "It's high time that Europeans stopped exporting their own responsibilities to Washington," said Nick Witney from the European Council on Foreign Relations. "If the West fails on Libya, it will be primarily a European failure."

In the end it was the French and British who filled the vacuum and with the wind of the Arab League behind them secured a UN resolution.
French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe raises his hand to vote in favour of a UN resolution on Libya

That was hard. What lies ahead may be harder. As of writing we don't know whether this will principally be a French/British operation. The Americans are briefing that no immediate US action is expected.

It should be possible to stop Gaddafi's planes from flying. But that may not in itself change the reality on the ground. Combat air patrols might be able to target his forces heading, say, for Benghazi. But very quickly Libyan forces will operate from within city perimeters and they will be difficult to dislodge without risking wider civilian casualties.

And say Benghazi is spared, Gaddafi won't relinquish his grip on other places. You might have a ceasefire of sorts but the world could be left with a divided Libya with Gaddafi still in power. After pushing for action, would Paris and London be prepared to see the Gaddafi family in control of much of Western Libya, albeit unable to use aggression against his own people?

The logic will be to arm and train the opposition. Does that fall under "all necessary measures"? And so the risk of mission creep...

We know with any military action that plans are quickly torn up. The unpredictable occurs. Although there will be no boots on the ground, getting into a country is always easier than getting out.

What is the exit strategy? When is it "job done"? When is it "mission accomplished"? Is this an operation to end the fighting or to finish off the Gaddafi regime? All difficult questions that lie ahead.

But today the French will say they have won a battle for intervention. As Alain Juppe, the French foreign minister said: "We cannot allow these warmongers to go on. We cannot let international law be flouted."

Interesting article, but what makes you say the French have regained military pride?

 

[editec]

France has been a military power in the Western world since BEFORE the fall of the Roman empire. It still is.

Of course the dunderheaded fools who know no history except what they hear on TV, might not get that.

But so what?

Fools gotta be fools.

 

[Munin]

Interesting article, but what makes you say the French have regained military pride?

"If sometime in the future the Libyan opposition win and come to power in Tripoli, they might consider a statue to the French president. There could be a Sarkozy Square or even a boulevard named after him."

I think the media impact of videos with Libyan rebels cheering for French pilots and the french president does that to the French people.


I could compare it with the impact of WWII victory cheering by people from allied nations, american politicians have been longing for such cheering for their actions ever since. Of course this is on a much smaller scale, but still: because the media coverage today is 10 times bigger than in 1945, the impact of it is very similar. (Lybia is in the news almost every day in a lot of countries)

 

[tigerbob]

Interesting article, but what makes you say the French have regained military pride?

"If sometime in the future the Libyan opposition win and come to power in Tripoli, they might consider a statue to the French president. There could be a Sarkozy Square or even a boulevard named after him."

I think the media impact of videos with Libyan rebels cheering for French pilots and the french president does that to the French people.


I could compare it with the impact of WWII victory cheering by people from allied nations, american politicians have been longing for such cheering for their actions ever since. Of course this is on a much smaller scale, but still: because the media coverage today is 10 times bigger than in 1945, the impact of it is very similar. (Lybia is in the news almost every day in a lot of countries)

So it's more national pride than military, though the military of course has a not insignificant role to play.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

I agree. The French Military has nothing to be ashamed of. They have always fought well. I do find it odd that most folks call them fags and low quality soldiers and all that, yet when France steps foot in a shit hole in riot mode like Ivory Coast to collect visiting non natives all of the rioting stops ?You can also read the story of how the Mexican holiday "Cinco De Mio came to be for some more cool french military history.

 

[ekrem]

Napoleon isn't taught in French schoolbooks for 20 years.
Geschichtsmythen: Eine deutsche Ausstellung demaskiert Napoleon I. - Nachrichten Kultur - Geschichte - WELT ONLINE

He was a brutal Dictator and the last mass-grave has been dug-out in Latvia, where 35.000 of own Soldiers, some still wearing uniforms, were simply thrown into a hole.

 

[ekrem]

Hitler used soldiers from all nations he occupied, he also didn't fight alone:

For example, operation Barbarossa:

Germany
Romania
Finland
Italy
Hungary
Slovakia
Croatia

Blitzkrieg was a German soldier's thing.

And then I haven't mentioned all the foreign SS-troops that fought with them:

Belgian SS troops: "AXIS & FOREIGN LEGION MILITARIA
French SS troops: 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dutch SS troops: 23rd SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division Nederland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
... (numerous other occupied countries supplied troops to Hitlers army, some of them fougth untill the last days of the war)

Those divisions were tiny. And the motivation to establish those divisions doesn't differ much from USA supplying weapons and giving assistance to warlords in Afghanistan and Iraq. It comes as situational necessity.

Napoleon's Russia-campaign had 130.000 German soldiers.
Only 30% of the 500.000 men were French.
1812: Die vergessenen Deutschen in Napoleons Armee - Nachrichten Kultur - Geschichte - WELT ONLINE

 

[ekrem]

By whom? The French are idiots. They over complicate EVERYTHING. The only things they do best are cooking and wine.

We do owe them a debt of gratitude for that little Revolutionary War thingy. They did not do it for us so much as they saw an opportunity to weaken the English.

They totally fucked up the Mediterranean with the invasive seaweed they released. All of their automobiles are crap. Their SST was crap. I could go on and on. No country in the world has had OUR track record for kicking ass. Even in Viet Nam we just stopped fighting. We only lost in that we didn't finish it. We lost a lot of good boys over there and that turned out to be unacceptable. If we had used all of our resources, which would have been an even more incredible waste, we could have easily beat down the N. Vietnamese and all supplies going south.

The French actually lost in Indo China.

Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He taught the American farmers to fight.

a Prussian-born military officer who served as inspector general and Major general of the Continental Army during the American Revolutionary War. He is credited with being one of the fathers of the Continental Army in teaching them the essentials of military drills, tactics, and disciplines.[2] He wrote the Revolutionary War Drill Manual, the book that served as the standard United States drill manual until the War of 1812. He served as General George Washington's chief of staff in the final years of the war.

His War Drill Manual (Have to login with Google Account)
http://books.google.de/ebooks/reader?id=vTJFAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader

 

[Montesquieu]

I suppose they can ask the Foreign Legion for help.

 

[whitehall]

France...military power. Sounds like an oxymoron. You have to go pretty far back in time to imagine the French as anything other than surrender monkeys. American Doughboys gave their lives saving the quiche eaters from the Hun during WW1 and twenty five years later we had to do it all over again.

 

[Munin]

I suppose they can ask the Foreign Legion for help.

In the US they call their foreign Legion "the army", but that s another discussion. I find it weard to hear this from an American, considering what your country actually is.

The foreign Legion is probably as French as the US military is American.

Code of Honour

Every Legionnaire must know by heart the "Legionnaire's Code of Honour". The Legionnaires spend many hours learning it, reciting it, and then getting the vocal synchronisation together:

* Art. 1 - Légionnaire, you are a volunteer serving France with honour and fidelity.
* Art. 2 - Each legionnaire is your brother in arms whatever his nationality, his race or his religion might be. You show him the same close solidarity that links the members of the same family.
* Art. 3 - Respectful of traditions, devoted to your leaders, discipline and comradeship are your strengths, courage and loyalty your virtues.
* Art. 4 - Proud of your status as Legionnaire, you display this in your always impeccable uniform, your always dignified but modest behaviour, and your clean living quarters.
* Art. 5 - An elite soldier, you train rigorously, you maintain your weapon as your most precious possession, and you take constant care of your physical form.
* Art. 6 - The mission is sacred, you carry it out until the end and, if necessary in the field, at the risk of your life.
* Art. 7 - In combat, you act without passion and without hate, you respect defeated enemies, and you never abandon your dead, your wounded, or your arms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion#English

Compare this with foreign soldiers in the US army and believe me: there are a huge number of foreign soldiers in the US army.



btw they also have an impressive military trackrecord:


http://anorthwoodsanglican4.blogspot.com/2009/10/father-mackonochie-and-captain-danjou.html

The Battle of Camarón, which occurred 30 April 1863 between the French Foreign Legion and the Mexican army, is regarded by the Legion as a defining moment in its history. A small infantry patrol led by Captain Jean Danjou, Lt Maudet and Lt Vilain, numbering 62 soldiers and three officers was attacked and besieged by a force that may have eventually reached 2,000 Mexican infantry and cavalry, and was forced to make a defensive stand at the nearby Hacienda Camarón






On the 30 April, at 1 a.m., the 3rd company—62 soldiers and three officers—was en route. At 7 a.m., after a 15-mile march, they stopped at Palo Verde to rest and "prepare the coffee". Soon after, a Mexican Army force of 600 cavalry was sighted. Captain Danjou ordered the company take up a square formation, and, though retreating, he rebuffed several cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the Mexican army that suffered from the French long-range rifle.

Seeking a more defensible position, Danjou made a stand at the nearby Hacienda Camarón, an inn protected by a 3-metre-high wall. His plan was to occupy Mexican forces to prevent attacks against the nearby convoy. While his legionnaires prepared to defend the inn, the Mexican commander, Colonel Milan, demanded that Danjou and soldiers surrender, noting the Mexican Army's numeric superiority. Danjou replied: "We have munitions. We will not surrender." He then swore to fight to the death, an oath which was seconded by the men.

Around 11 a.m. the Mexicans were increased in size by the arrival of 1,200 infantry. The Hacienda took fire but the French had lost all water early in the morning when pack mule were lost during the retreat.

At noon, Captain Danjou was shot in the chest and died; his soldiers continued fighting despite overwhelming odds under the command of an inspired 2nd Lt. Vilain, who held for four hours before falling during an assault.

At 5 p.m only 12 Légionnaires remained around 2nd Lt. Maudet. Soon after, with ammunition exhausted, the last of Danjou's soldiers, numbering only five under the command of Lt. Maudet, desperately mounted a bayonet charge. Two men died outright, while the rest continued the assault. The tiny group was surrounded and beaten to the earth. A Belgian Legionnaire, Victor Catteau, leapt in front of Lt. Maudet in an effort to protect him from the Mexican guns when they were leveled at him but died in vain as both he and Lt. Maudet were hit in the barrage.

Colonel Milan, commander of the Mexicans, managed to prevent his men from ripping the surviving legionnaires to pieces. When the last two survivors were asked to surrender, they insisted that Mexican soldiers allow them safe passage home, to keep their arms, and to escort the body of Captain Danjou. To that, the Mexican commander commented, "What can I refuse to such men? No, these are not men, they are devils", and, out of respect, agreed to these terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camarón

 

[Munin]

Blitzkrieg was a German soldier's thing.

Wrong: it was a brilliant new German general's military strategy, not some soldier "thing".

Those divisions were tiny. And the motivation to establish those divisions doesn't differ much from USA supplying weapons and giving assistance to warlords in Afghanistan and Iraq. It comes as situational necessity.

They were often given the best weapons in the german army, some of those divisions even had the most expensive Tiger tanks. Do we give F22's to warlords in Afghanistan?

 

[Trajan]

Napoleon isn't taught in French schoolbooks for 20 years.
Geschichtsmythen: Eine deutsche Ausstellung demaskiert Napoleon I. - Nachrichten Kultur - Geschichte - WELT ONLINE

He was a brutal Dictator and the last mass-grave has been dug-out in Latvia, where 35.000 of own Soldiers, some still wearing uniforms, were simply thrown into a hole.

can you link to that please, because I am having a hard time swallowing that, they buried them fast back then and he never lost that many in any single battle, the only one close was Leipzig...and well, Leipzig is not Latvia.

and dude, dictator? not quite, in fact his opponents were the ones propping up the Ancien Régime.

 

[Trajan]

I suppose they can ask the Foreign Legion for help.

In the US they call their foreign Legion "the army", but that s another discussion. I find it weard to hear this from an American, considering what your country actually is.

The foreign Legion is probably as French as the US military is American.

uhn no, not even close. the only thing close is they are volunteers and predominantly french.

 

[High_Gravity]

Why don't the French deploy some ground troops into Libya and show us how good their Military really is.

 

[Munin]

I suppose they can ask the Foreign Legion for help.

In the US they call their foreign Legion "the army", but that s another discussion. I find it weard to hear this from an American, considering what your country actually is.

The foreign Legion is probably as French as the US military is American.

uhn no, not even close. the only thing close is they are volunteers and predominantly french.

I don't really mean to offend anyone, I just ment by that that the US is a melting pot of foreign Cultures. President Bush for example has a German family tree, Obama has African roots as wel as European roots.

So no offense ment, I just ment it as it is. For all I know some of you may be laughing with your own forefathers when you re making the french surrender-monkey-jokes ...


Then you have lots of foreign soldiers fighting for their US papers, this is what the French Foreign Legion is for France (a chance for foreigners to get the French identity)

 

[Munin]

Why don't the French deploy some ground troops into Libya and show us how good their Military really is.

They already do it in other countries, why would they need to show it again?










And btw, they already are in Libya

 

[tigerbob]

Why don't the French deploy some ground troops into Libya and show us how good their Military really is.

I assume that was a facetious question. The UN mandate doesn't allow for ground troops, as I'm sure you know.

 

[Sunni Man]

Then you have lots of foreign soldiers fighting for their US papers, this is what the French Foreign Legion is for France (a chance for foreigners to get the French identity)

Why would anyone want to become a "frog"???