France outlaws burkas

[Ravi]

Where is the liberal argument that we need to stay out of foreign nation's politics? This is why other countries hate us right? We think we have a right to tell them what to do? Applying our standards to their lives?

What? We aren't allowed to comment on what other countries do?

Oh we can, but then they hate us. You want them to like us right? You need to consider the feelings and needs of the people of France.

The French love me...not so sure about you.

 

[Sunni Man]

Yes, it took a few pages but once we got past all our knee jerk reactions to defend personal liberty and our preconceived notions about veiled threats, we realize this law was really conceived in order to serve as a legal mechanism for Muslim women to actually have more freedom...an avenue for them to break away from religious authority...French society wants to look them in the eye and say we respect the individual dignity of all citizens and thus hereby establish our authority to require face-to-face communication in public places regardless of any religious authority.

French society is extremely racist and xenophobic.

This ban is going to backfire on them in the near future.

It's kind of funny how so many people like you Valerie think you are somehow liberating muslim women.

But have never personally ask a burqa wearing muslimah (muslim woman) how she feels or why she puts it on to go out in public.

Just more arrogance from the West and their "we know what's best for you" hubris.

 

[saveliberty]

What? We aren't allowed to comment on what other countries do?

Oh we can, but then they hate us. You want them to like us right? You need to consider the feelings and needs of the people of France.

The French love me...not so sure about you.

You got me!

 

[ConHog]

What? We aren't allowed to comment on what other countries do?

Oh we can, but then they hate us. You want them to like us right? You need to consider the feelings and needs of the people of France.

The French love me...not so sure about you.

well, the French DO love smelly, unshaven women.

 

[Valerie]

Yes...let them bake tarte tatin!

http://www.discoverfrance.com/library/uploads/tarte-tatin-recette.jpg




Yes, it took a few pages but once we got past all our knee jerk reactions to defend personal liberty and our preconceived notions about veiled threats, we realize this law was really conceived in order to serve as a legal mechanism for Muslim women to actually have more freedom...an avenue for them to break away from religious authority...French society wants to look them in the eye and say we respect the individual dignity of all citizens and thus hereby establish our authority to require face-to-face communication in public places regardless of any religious authority.

In June of 2009, President Nicholas Sarkozy announced his opposition of full-face veils in a speech to a joint session of the French Parliament saying, "The burqa is not welcome in French territory...In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity."

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What ever lofty aims they claim and you believe, they are "protecting" women by punishing them. Women should be able to choose what they wear, period.

I agree ideally we are all free to wear whatever we want. Then there is the reality of the way Muslims men treat Muslim women and the reality of the dilemma of rapidly increasing Muslim populations in free societies, and the reality that often times women are not free to wear whatever they want to wear when they are held under such strict religious authority, and even if some apparently choose to hold themselves there, a society that values individual freedom, finding itself under these circumstances and seeking to establish a public standard for all citizens to communicate face-to-face in public places, is not an oppressive government trying to punish people for what they wear...They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

 

[Valerie]

Yes, it took a few pages but once we got past all our knee jerk reactions to defend personal liberty and our preconceived notions about veiled threats, we realize this law was really conceived in order to serve as a legal mechanism for Muslim women to actually have more freedom...an avenue for them to break away from religious authority...French society wants to look them in the eye and say we respect the individual dignity of all citizens and thus hereby establish our authority to require face-to-face communication in public places regardless of any religious authority.

French society is extremely racist and xenophobic.

This ban is going to backfire on them in the near future.

It's kind of funny how so many people like you Valerie think you are somehow liberating muslim women.

But have never personally ask a burqa wearing muslimah (muslim woman) how she feels or why she puts it on to go out in public.

Just more arrogance from the West and their "we know what's best for you" hubris.

I don't live in France Sunni Mouse, I'm just trying to understand the real story beyond the knee-jerk rhetoric.

 

[Ravi]

I agree ideally we are all free to wear whatever we want. Then there is the reality of the way Muslims men treat Muslim women and the reality of the dilemma of rapidly increasing Muslim populations in free societies, and the reality that often times women are not free to wear whatever they want to wear when they are held under such strict religious authority, and even if some apparently choose to hold themselves there, a society that values individual freedom, finding itself under these circumstances and seeking to establish a public standard for all citizens to communicate face-to-face in public places, is not an oppressive government trying to punish people for what they wear...They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

Isn't abuse already illegal? Why yes it is...in fact France has the strictest laws on spousal abuse that I've ever seen.

 

[Valerie]

I agree ideally we are all free to wear whatever we want. Then there is the reality of the way Muslims men treat Muslim women and the reality of the dilemma of rapidly increasing Muslim populations in free societies, and the reality that often times women are not free to wear whatever they want to wear when they are held under such strict religious authority, and even if some apparently choose to hold themselves there, a society that values individual freedom, finding itself under these circumstances and seeking to establish a public standard for all citizens to communicate face-to-face in public places, is not an oppressive government trying to punish people for what they wear...They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

Isn't abuse already illegal? Why yes it is...in fact France has the strictest laws on spousal abuse that I've ever seen.

See? France has no desire to oppress women, indeed it's quite the opposite.

 

[Sunni Man]

They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

So let me get this straight.

You want to help these women get out of an alleged oppressive religious dress code.

By enforcing an oppressive government dress code that's against what these women want to wear.


Face it Valerie, you just don't like the way these muslim women dress.

Just more Western, "we know what's best for you" so you have to obey us, colonial mindset and attitude.

 

[Ravi]

I agree ideally we are all free to wear whatever we want. Then there is the reality of the way Muslims men treat Muslim women and the reality of the dilemma of rapidly increasing Muslim populations in free societies, and the reality that often times women are not free to wear whatever they want to wear when they are held under such strict religious authority, and even if some apparently choose to hold themselves there, a society that values individual freedom, finding itself under these circumstances and seeking to establish a public standard for all citizens to communicate face-to-face in public places, is not an oppressive government trying to punish people for what they wear...They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

Isn't abuse already illegal? Why yes it is...in fact France has the strictest laws on spousal abuse that I've ever seen.

See? France has no desire to oppress women, indeed it's quite the opposite.

But they are with this law.

 

[Si modo]

They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

So let me get this straight.

You want to help these women get out of an alleged oppressive religious dress code.

By enforcing an oppressive government dress code that's against what these women want to wear.


Face it Valerie, you just don't like the way these muslim women dress.

Just more Western, "we know what's best for you" so you have to obey us, colonial mindset and attitude.

Although I agree a bit with you, I find your last sentence superbly ironic in its hypocrisy.

 

[Valerie]

They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

So let me get this straight.

You want to help these women get out of an alleged oppressive religious dress code.

By enforcing an oppressive government dress code that's against what these women want to wear.


Face it Valerie, you just don't like the way these muslim women dress.

Just more Western, "we know what's best for you" so you have to obey us, colonial mindset and attitude.

It's not an "oppressive government dress code" to establish a requirement that all citizens communicate face-to-face in public places. It seems to me to be a fair way to establish an avenue to help women regain their individual identities.

 

[Sunni Man]

See? France has no desire to oppress women, indeed it's quite the opposite.

Unless you are a muslim.

Then you are a second class citizen.

And have special laws enacted just for you.


Kind of reminds me of pre war Nazi Germany and their special laws to "Help" their Jewish citizens....

 

[saveliberty]

They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

So let me get this straight.

You want to help these women get out of an alleged oppressive religious dress code.

By enforcing an oppressive government dress code that's against what these women want to wear.


Face it Valerie, you just don't like the way these muslim women dress.

Just more Western, "we know what's best for you" so you have to obey us, colonial mindset and attitude.

Actually FRANCE had a colonial mind set and passed this law. Just saying.

 

[Valerie]

Isn't abuse already illegal? Why yes it is...in fact France has the strictest laws on spousal abuse that I've ever seen.

See? France has no desire to oppress women, indeed it's quite the opposite.

But they are with this law.

I disagree. People are still free to wear whatever they choose to wear in most places, but now a legal standard has been set for showing your face in public places...That is not oppressive, IMO, it is fair and values individual dignity. Otherwise by what legal authority would the French government be able to reach out to these women when suddenly it's not just thousands but millions of them living faceless and voiceless in their "free society" ?

 

[Sunni Man]

They are merely trying to establish that government authority supersedes the religious authority in order to provide an avenue out of oppressive dress codes.

So let me get this straight.

You want to help these women get out of an alleged oppressive religious dress code.

By enforcing an oppressive government dress code that's against what these women want to wear.


Face it Valerie, you just don't like the way these muslim women dress.

Just more Western, "we know what's best for you" so you have to obey us, colonial mindset and attitude.

Although I agree a bit with you, I find your last sentence superbly ironic in its hypocrisy.

I grew up on Oklahoma among Native Americans. (mainly Comanchee, Kiowa, Apache)

So I have personally seen the aftermath of the, "we know what's best for you" european mind set and superior attitude.

But, I am not sure what you mean by "hypocrisy" on my part?

 

[Sunni Man]

See? France has no desire to oppress women, indeed it's quite the opposite.

But they are with this law.

I disagree. People are still free to wear whatever they choose to wear in most places, but now a legal standard has been set for showing your face in public places...That is not oppressive, IMO, it is fair and values individual dignity. Otherwise by what legal authority would the French government be able to reach out to these women when suddenly it's not just thousands but millions of them living faceless and voiceless in their "free society" ?

Obviously, you don't know any Burqa wearing Muslimah's or you would NOT be making these blanket statements like you do.

Many of these women are highly educated and are far from "voiceless"

They view wearing the burqa as adding to their dignity and personal values.

But forcing them to uncover is both demeaning and degrading to them as muslim women.

 

[Si modo]

So let me get this straight.

You want to help these women get out of an alleged oppressive religious dress code.

By enforcing an oppressive government dress code that's against what these women want to wear.


Face it Valerie, you just don't like the way these muslim women dress.

Just more Western, "we know what's best for you" so you have to obey us, colonial mindset and attitude.

Although I agree a bit with you, I find your last sentence superbly ironic in its hypocrisy.

I grew up on Oklahoma among Native Americans. (mainly Comanchee, Kiowa, Apache)

So I have personally seen the aftermath of the, "we know what's best for you" european mind set and superior attitude.

But, I am not sure what you mean by "hypocrisy" on my part?

No doubt.

 

[Ravi]

See? France has no desire to oppress women, indeed it's quite the opposite.

But they are with this law.

I disagree. People are still free to wear whatever they choose to wear in most places, but now a legal standard has been set for showing your face in public places...That is not oppressive, IMO, it is fair and values individual dignity. Otherwise by what legal authority would the French government be able to reach out to these women when suddenly it's not just thousands but millions of them living faceless and voiceless in their "free society" ?

If France really meant what you claim they mean, they would have simply written a law to the effect that no one can compel anyone to cover their face or part of their face in public.

 

[Ravi]

I wonder if Valarie would support a law that disallows Orthodox Jewish women from shaving their heads and wearing wigs?