Zone1 For the Love of God...

[onefour1]

That's not quite correct. In short we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.

How is it not quite correct? I believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are 3 distinct persons. I believe they are one in unity and purpose. What is "the substance" you speak of? Because all three represent one truth and one righteousness, how is that not correct?

 

[BS Filter]

How is it not quite correct? I believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are 3 distinct persons. I believe they are one in unity and purpose. What is "the substance" you speak of? Because all three represent one truth and one righteousness, how is that not correct?

Do you see the Father and Jesus as two God's or two persons who are one God?

 

[ding]

How is it not quite correct?

You said, you see a hierarchy within the godhead where the Father is the head god and the Son and Holy Ghost are subordinate to the Father. Catholics believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are equal in glory, and coeternal majesty.

But putting that aside, the Trinity is still not an analog to your belief of many different, separate and distinct gods even if the Trinity had a hierarchy.

 

[onefour1]

This..."I believe that that same oneness that Jesus has with the Father and that we all can acquire is what allowed Jesus to be selected as part of the godhead".

You said Jesus was "selected" to be part of the Godhead. I believe Scripture says Jesus is eternal God.

So is it your opinion that Jesus was, for an infinite past, God the Son? One of the problems I have with the concept of God being God for an infinite past is that most who believe this also believe that God created all things from nothing. So at some point in the infinite past, nothing existed except God. This would mean that before God's very first creation, God existed for an infinite past before he created that first creation. So He, and as you are probably suggesting Jesus also, existed for an infinite past with nothing else in existence and not creating anything up until after eons and eons He finally creates that first creation. That to me seems extremely unbelievable. What a boring existence that must have been. So, no I don't believe that was the case.

Scripture tells us that the Father, through Jesus, create all things that were made.

John 1:2-3
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

When I read these verses, I ask, "what do they mean by beginning?". What constitutes, "the beginning"? Why is this verse clarifying that things made by Jesus were made things? Are there things that are not made? Are there eternal things other than God himself? Maybe the beginning was when God himself started out his kingdom as a God. Maybe Jesus was the beginning of all the creations of God.

Revelation 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Basically there was a beginning to the creations of God. To me this does not mean that nothing else existed prior to that first creation but that there is eternal matter and intelligence and to create does not mean ex nihilo creation but to organize from existing intelligence and matter. Jesus was the first of all the creations of God and was the Firstborn spirit child of the Father. Through his firstborn son, he created from chaotic self-existing matter things that were made. From the beginning of God's kingdom as a God, Jesus was the first of all the creations of God. After being born of the Father, Jesus was selected to be with him as part of the godhead. Thus Jesus was with God from the beginning of his kingdom. I don't believe God was a God for all eternity past nor do I believe that Jesus was either. Eternity is a state of being and not just a measure of infinite time. Once God became a God, he was a perfect and unchangeable being. He would forever after be who he is as an eternal being. Eternity is a state of existence. For example, God lives in eternity as opposed to mankind on earth who live in a temporal existence that will eventually come to an end and transform into eternal existence. When God says he was God from everlasting to everlasting or from eternity to all eternity, I believe that he is saying that He was God before this temporal earth and will be God after this temporal earth existence. He is from eternity to all eternity. I don't think he is saying that he has existed as God for an infinite past. He is an eternal God because he exists as God in the state of eternity. Not that he was God for an infinite past.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Some turn away from religion/faith because they cannot reconcile their own understanding of the Bible with the holiness of God. They prefer no belief to a belief that God destroys.

Huh?

That doesn't sound anything like me.

It's kind of like saying I have no religion because I don't understand the Bible in YOUR WAY.

I understand the Bible. It's contradictory and people will make it say whatever they want it to say.

 

[zaangalewa]

I don't feel the need to convince anyone of anything. ...

What do you prefer? A cruise missile directly onto the toilet seat of Kim Jong-Un before he will fire an intercontinental nuke onto the USA?

 

[zaangalewa]

You've been novus ordo-ized.

There is only one true religion and if you don't TELL people that and lead them to God through Christ ("no one comes to the Father except through Me") you are leading them (allowing them to be led) to Hell.

I'm sure you don't want that on your conscience... forever?

Wrong argument. You don't know how many Buddhists - for example - Jesus brought to his Father although they never believed in him because they did not know that they also had a Father in heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

It's kind of like saying I have no religion because I don't understand the Bible in YOUR WAY.

It is noting is that that over all these years because of the different cultures and different languages, the author's intent may no longer be as clear as it was to his original audience.

 

[zaangalewa]

Do you see the Father and Jesus as two God's or two persons who are one God?

As three persons who are one god

Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut ... ah sorry ... "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

source: Athanasian Creed - Wikipedia

 

[zaangalewa]

True. I don't think God has found it necessary at this juncture to reveal the history of all eternity past to us. My guess would be that there was a first God or Gods but that is just my guess.

We say "god made everything out of nothing".

I heard once a very intelligent academic philosopher - who had also studied physics - a so called "double-Dr." - saying a very stupid sentence about this. It was "'Everything is made out of nothing' - 'nothing is made out of everything' - do you feel anything when someone says so? I not". Today I know that people - independent how intelligent they are and what they studied - are wrong when they say such a nonsense with such a pathos. They like to manipulate. That's why they do so. I guess vanity is the reason behind such manipulations.

Indeed are the vacuum in physics and the big bang in physics two of the most interesting natural and mathematical phenomenons. I call in such a context "mathematics" often "the spirituality of physics" because physics without mathematics is not very impressing. And in case of the big bang theory we know only one thing very sure in pure physics: the universe started because it expands. And we know only one thing about this start in pure mathematics and/or philosophy and this is: We are only able to say nothing about what was "before" including that there was nothing what we could call "before". Augustinus said about 1700 years ago "the mighty creating word of god is a timeless word". And as far as I can see we still do not know more now. Fascinating! But I am sure one day we will find out more - if the superstupid Russians will not start a new world war.

 

[BS Filter]

So is it your opinion that Jesus was, for an infinite past, God the Son? One of the problems I have with the concept of God being God for an infinite past is that most who believe this also believe that God created all things from nothing. So at some point in the infinite past, nothing existed except God. This would mean that before God's very first creation, God existed for an infinite past before he created that first creation. So He, and as you are probably suggesting Jesus also, existed for an infinite past with nothing else in existence and not creating anything up until after eons and eons He finally creates that first creation. That to me seems extremely unbelievable. What a boring existence that must have been. So, no I don't believe that was the case.

Scripture tells us that the Father, through Jesus, create all things that were made.

John 1:2-3
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

When I read these verses, I ask, "what do they mean by beginning?". What constitutes, "the beginning"? Why is this verse clarifying that things made by Jesus were made things? Are there things that are not made? Are there eternal things other than God himself? Maybe the beginning was when God himself started out his kingdom as a God. Maybe Jesus was the beginning of all the creations of God.

Revelation 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Basically there was a beginning to the creations of God. To me this does not mean that nothing else existed prior to that first creation but that there is eternal matter and intelligence and to create does not mean ex nihilo creation but to organize from existing intelligence and matter. Jesus was the first of all the creations of God and was the Firstborn spirit child of the Father. Through his firstborn son, he created from chaotic self-existing matter things that were made. From the beginning of God's kingdom as a God, Jesus was the first of all the creations of God. After being born of the Father, Jesus was selected to be with him as part of the godhead. Thus Jesus was with God from the beginning of his kingdom. I don't believe God was a God for all eternity past nor do I believe that Jesus was either. Eternity is a state of being and not just a measure of infinite time. Once God became a God, he was a perfect and unchangeable being. He would forever after be who he is as an eternal being. Eternity is a state of existence. For example, God lives in eternity as opposed to mankind on earth who live in a temporal existence that will eventually come to an end and transform into eternal existence. When God says he was God from everlasting to everlasting or from eternity to all eternity, I believe that he is saying that He was God before this temporal earth and will be God after this temporal earth existence. He is from eternity to all eternity. I don't think he is saying that he has existed as God for an infinite past. He is an eternal God because he exists as God in the state of eternity. Not that he was God for an infinite past.

Interesting. David was also called God's Firstborn. The term "Firstborn" means preeminence. Superiority, highest. David wasn't the Firstborn in his family. When the Bible speaks of Firstborn it means preeminence. Jesus is the Firstborn of creation, but that doesn't mean He was God's first creation. It means He is superior.

 

[onefour1]

Do you see the Father and Jesus as two God's or two persons who are one God?

I see the Father and Jesus as two Gods who represent the one true God (the Father). They are two separate persons who work in unison to accomplish what the will of the Father is in truth and righteousness.

John 5:19-20
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

 

[BreezeWood]

It is noting is that that over all these years because of the different cultures and different languages, the author's intent may no longer be as clear as it was to his original audience.

though the statement above makes little religious sense - that was the purpose for the c-bible, an intent to persuade its audience than compelling the true events and purpose, liberation theology - self determination of the 1st century.

 

[onefour1]

You said, you see a hierarchy within the godhead where the Father is the head god and the Son and Holy Ghost are subordinate to the Father. Catholics believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are equal in glory, and coeternal majesty.

But putting that aside, the Trinity is still not an analog to your belief of many different, separate and distinct gods even if the Trinity had a hierarchy.

Jesus is subordinate to the Father as shown in my previous post:

John 5:19-20
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

This to me shows an hierarchy of the Son subordinating himself to the will of the Father. I am not claiming that God is an analog to my beliefs any more than you or anyone else does.

 

[BS Filter]

I see the Father and Jesus as two Gods who represent the one true God (the Father). They are two separate persons who work in unison to accomplish what the will of the Father is in truth and righteousness.

John 5:19-20
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

We're gonna disagree on that. I believe Scripture is clear, one God. Your belief is polytheism.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus is subordinate to the Father as shown in my previous post:

Most see this as Jesus, in his human nature, would be subordinate. Our different view of the Trinity (God as Creator, as Word, as Inspirational Guide and Protector of Creation) does not allow for subordination. Each is an essential part of One being.

Creation (mind of God) was done through the Word, which was spread and inspired through the Holy Spirit.

If you had no words, who would you be? If your word could not be carried to others, what good would it be? We are tiny renditions of our Father, the Almighty. If we try to be Him, we will miss out on being who we are. God has a purpose. We have a purpose. And that purpose is not to be God, not to be who we are not and were never meant to be.

 

[ding]

Jesus is subordinate to the Father as shown in my previous post:

John 5:19-20
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

This to me shows an hierarchy of the Son subordinating himself to the will of the Father. I am not claiming that God is an analog to my beliefs any more than you or anyone else does.

I understand that's what you believe. That's not what I believe. But my point was that even if there is a hierarchy - which I don't believe there is - it still wouldn't be an analogy for your belief that there are many different, distinct and separate gods who started out as creatures.

 

[onefour1]

We say "god made everything out of nothing".

I heard once a very intelligent academic philosopher - who had also studied physics - a so called "double-Dr." - saying a very stupid sentence about this. It was "'Everything is made out of nothing' - 'nothing is made out of everything' - do you feel anything when someone says so? I not". Today I know that people - independent how intelligent they are and what they studied - are wrong when they say such a nonsense with such a pathos. They like to manipulate. That's why they do so. I guess vanity is the reason behind such manipulations.

Indeed are the vacuum in physics and the big bang in physics two of the most interesting natural and mathematical phenomenons. I call in such a context "mathematics" often "the spirituality of physics" because physics without mathematics is not very impressing. And in case of the big bang theory we know only one thing very sure in pure physics: the universe started because it expands. And we know only one thing about this start in pure mathematics and/or philosophy and this is: We are only able to say nothing about what was "before" including that there was nothing what we could call "before". Augustinus said about 1700 years ago "the mighty creating word of god is a timeless word". And as far as I can see we still do not know more now. Fascinating! But I am sure one day we will find out more - if the superstupid Russians will not start a new world war.

From Latter-day scriptures, it is my opinion that there is a vast amount of intelligence in the universe that vary from a very low amount of intellectual capacity to a very high amount of intellectual capacity. I believe that God has combined most matter with intelligence. He has then given things a law by which they obey. The laws of physics are such laws that are given by God to the elements of the universe to obey. So I believe there is intelligence in man, animals, plants, and even rocks and dirt and in all things, etc. These intelligences are very obedient to God and abide by the laws that they are given. However, if God should decide to give the elements another law to obey, then the waters of the Red Sea might stand up on its own or water may change to wine or the illnesses of the sick may be cured, etc., etc. Simply by the word of God, the elements obey. God can, at times, give these powers unto his servants and they too can command the elements. I believe that when the two witnesses come on scene as mentioned in the eleventh chapter of Revelation, we will again see man given the power to command the elements. To me, it is nothing more than obedient intelligence.

Jacob 4:6
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

 

[onefour1]

Interesting. David was also called God's Firstborn. The term "Firstborn" means preeminence. Superiority, highest. David wasn't the Firstborn in his family. When the Bible speaks of Firstborn it means preeminence. Jesus is the Firstborn of creation, but that doesn't mean He was God's first creation. It means He is superior.

True, the birthright has gone to those who were not the firstborn of their parents, but in the case of Jesus Christ, we know that he was the beginning of the creation of God. He did have the preeminence from the beginning and it was through him that God created all things that were made in his kingdom. Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[BS Filter]

True, the birthright has gone to those who were not the firstborn of their parents, but in the case of Jesus Christ, we know that he was the beginning of the creation of God. He did have the preeminence from the beginning and it was through him that God created all things that were made in his kingdom. Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

True, the birthright has gone to those who were not the firstborn of their parents, but in the case of Jesus Christ, we know that he was the beginning of the creation of God. He did have the preeminence from the beginning and it was through him that God created all things that were made in his kingdom. Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

No, Jesus was not created. Firstborn doesn't mean created. Jehovah's Witnesses make the same mistake.