Zone1 For Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution, question

[Donald H]

No, that's not quite right. I said the meaning of the account was probably lost but the account itself was likely intact. The account in question is an allegorical account of an historical event, the creation of existence. In that allegorical account they sequenced matter and energy being created before light. Which I found amazing. That account also said that everything wasn't created all at once. That what they saw was the result of a process. And lastly the account tells us that man arose from that creation. All in allegorical fashion mind you.

To the degree that we humans are capable of understanding, it all must have been created at the same time.

or

It always existed.

 

[ding]

This is true. So please provide evidence that doesn't rely on circular reasoning like this?

There's nothing circular here. For you to be right would be practically impossible. There are an infinite number of combinations for matter to produce lifeless universes. There's only one combination for matter to produce universes hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

 

[ding]

I never would claim I looked at all the evidence. I can only judge the evidence that is presented to me or that I find. This is the whole point of atheism. I don't claim God doesn't exist. I simply claim I haven't seen any evidence of God. And until I do, I will go with likely explanations that don't involve a God. Especially a God that is described in old books without any scientific bases I can discern.

You never made an effort to find any evidence. I did. It's not going to be brought to you. You have to go find it.

 

[forkup]

There's nothing circular here. For you to be right would be practically impossible. There are an infinite number of combinations for matter to produce lifeless universes. There's only one combination for matter to produce universes hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

Again, what makes you say that? Is it your word? Lack of imagination? Scientific studies?... what?

 

[ding]

Simple question. Do you believe life began within the timespan of human existence?

Ummmm.... no.

Do you believe evolution is limited to biological evolution?

 

[ding]

Again, what makes you say that? Is it your word? Lack of imagination? Scientific studies?... what?

I told you, George Wald was the first to bring this up. He's also the one who brought up that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

 

[forkup]

You never made an effort to find any evidence. I did. It's not going to be brought to you. You have to go find it.

That is funny. Seems to me you are in a position to bring me evidence. Why do I have to go find it?

I looked. I was raised Roman Catholic. I once spend a few months on this board talking to a new earth creationist. I watched dozens of debates between people far more knowledgeable than me. So far, I haven't seen a single theist giving a convincing argument for the existence of God let alone a scientifically sound one.

In the end, every single one of the arguments theists give, is one version of another of just accepting the existence of God on faith.

 

[ding]

I'll have to start from a position that the bibles are all rhetoric until you present something that can be taken literally.

I'll accept your turn to it being allegorical in meaning if you can explain the meaning, or the intent of the meaning.

So for example, is there a message in the whale story that I'm missing? You can take that question in good faith.

Surprised? Don't be, I'm trying to expand this discussion into something worthy of this section of the forum.

Those are all your mistakes to make. It's not my job to save you from yourself.

 

[forkup]

Ummmm.... no.

View attachment 745052

Do you believe evolution is limited to biological evolution?

Nope, I know for a fact that evolution can be replicated within computer programs for instance.

 

[ding]

That's more like what I was asking for. I can now accept the bibles to be allegory and rhetoric, but still containing no literal word of your god.

I'm as content with that as any atheist could be.

I'm glad you are happy. Good luck getting through the storm.

 

[BackAgain]

What would prevent the Almighty Creator of All from putting evolution into motion?

 

[ding]

That's not a message of peace, it's of frustration and anger.

A true story for you: I've been through *storms that made people seasick and trembling with fear. I didn't see Christians bearing up any better than atheists. The weak were made strong through *experience.

*literal

Incorrect, but if it makes you happy to believe that, good for you. I couldn't be happier for you.

 

[ding]

What would prevent the Almighty Creator of All from putting evolution into motion?

He did. The laws of nature predestined it.

 

[ding]

That is funny. Seems to me you are in a position to bring me evidence. Why do I have to go find it?

I looked. I was raised Roman Catholic. I once spend a few months on this board talking to a new earth creationist. I watch dozens of debates between people far more knowledgeable than me. So far, I haven't seen a single theist giving a convincing argument for the existence of God let alone a scientifically sound one.

In the end, every single one of the arguments theists give, is one version of another of just accepting the existence of God on faith.

It's not my job. No one did it for me.

Don't believe, do believe. I couldn't care less. But you seem to care a great deal because here you are asking for it.

 

[forkup]

I told you, George Wald was the first to bring this up. He's also the one who brought up that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

This is philosophical. Something that I don't like. Not just that, I don't believe it. Even if there is no consciousness a physical world can exist. A universe without any conscious life would still exist it simply would not be recognised..

 

[BackAgain]

He did. The laws of nature predestined it.

Or, He Predestined the laws of nature.

 

[Flash]

Does that mean that you believe that God had absolutely no hand in the propagation of millions of species of plant, fungus, and animal life on Earth?

Did God just watch it all unfold for billions of years, and then when humans evolved, decide that they are so sinful that he must take human form to suffer and die for those sins?

I believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth. This universe has intelligent design to it. It wasn't magically created out of nothing.

Science is telling us how He did it.

I don't believe that the earth is only 6K years old as determined by some medieval biblical scholar counting the generations mentioned in the Bible.

 

[ding]

Nope, I know for a fact that evolution can be replicated within computer programs for instance.

Evolution is anything which moves from a lower state to a higher state; a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. There have been 5 stages of evolution of space and time; cosmic evolution, stellar evolution, chemical evolution, biological evolution and evolution of consciousness.

 

[forkup]

It's not my job. No one did it for me.

Don't believe, do believe. I couldn't care less. But you seem to care a great deal because here you are asking for it.

It is your job if you are the one making the claim. I'm not the one making a claim God does or doesn't exist, you are.

 

[ding]

Or, He Predestined the laws of nature.

Yes, that's the assumption because science tells us the laws of nature were in place before space and time were created from nothing.