Zone1 Focusing the LGBTQ debate

[HeyNorm]

Even assuming all that is true (some links might make it more convincing), why does the Federal government have to get involved and can't leave it to the people that run the locker room or prison?

Do you really want private businesses to dictate men being able to inhabit locker rooms with girls?

Seriously?

 

[forkup]

Of getting pregnant?

Gosh, ya got me.

Ah the lets deflect answer. Since you obviously like to play games more than honesty let me reply for you.

The risk of a trans-woman being raped in a men's prison is basically a hundred percent. The risk of a trans-woman raping a woman in a women's prison is an order of magnitude less.

 

[dblack]

.So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female?

A male has a penis. A female, a vagina. Them there's the chromosome thing.

I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

I'm sure you can. There are exceptions, but they are very rare.

So this is my second question. Can anybody give me a rational reason to assert that their rights supersede those of others?

Nope.

 

[forkup]

I'm sure you can. There are exceptions, but they are very rare.

So are transgenders. So does the rareness of something have an influence on whether or not it's right to discriminate. Or is discrimination wrong regardless?

 

[HeyNorm]

Ah the lets deflect answer. Since you obviously like to play games more than honesty let me reply for you.

The risk of a trans-woman being raped in a men's prison is basically a hundred percent. The risk of a trans-woman raping a woman in a women's prison is an order of magnitude less.

The goal here is to protect women in prison, not make it incredible more likely.

Adulting is tough.

 

[forkup]

The goal here is to protect women in prison, not make it incredible more likely.

Adulting is tough.

But the trans woman can be raped with near certainty to protect against the possibility that the trans woman would rape the biological woman.

Your "goal" seems to heavily favor one side. Again, confirming that only one side has rights in this debate according to right wingers when pressed.

 

[HeyNorm]

But the trans woman can be raped with near certainty to protect against the possibility that the trans woman would rape the biological woman.

Your "goal" seems to heavily favor one side. Again, confirming that only one side has rights in this debate according to right wingers when pressed.

You make your bed, deal with it. Wanna look and act like a woman when you’re not. Your problem, not mine.

In other words, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[forkup]

You make your bed, deal with it. Wanna look and act like a woman when you’re not. Your problem, not mine.

In other words, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Being trans is no more a choice than it is being gay. Simply because you don't feel like they do, that don't make their feelings any less legitimate. It's this complete lack of empathy that just shows the bigotry underneath the entire argument.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Rape in prison or a horrible human rights violation that we should be put in a stop to in every way we can.

Male Ex-cons have said over and over that rape is a fact of life in prison. Female inmates have reported raped by male guards. It is disgraceful that that is allowed to go on in the United States.

Allowing biological males to request and be granted the “right” to be in prison with females is the exact opposite of trying to stop rapes.

 

[forkup]

Rape in prison or a horrible human rights violation that we should be put in a stop to in every way we can.

Male Ex-cons have said over and over that rape is a fact of life in prison. Female inmates have reported raped by male guards. It is disgraceful that that is allowed to go on in the United States.

Allowing biological males to request and be granted the “right” to be in prison with females is the exact opposite of trying to stop rapes.

Who do you think is more at risk of rape. A woman coinhabiting a prison with a trans woman? Or a trans woman in a male jail?

This one you should answer.

 

[dblack]

So are transgenders. So does the rareness of something have an influence on whether or not it's right to discriminate. Or is discrimination wrong regardless?

It depends. In any case, I think it's a mistake to try to make discrimination illegal. Equal rights under the law should be the goal of government. The rest is up to society.

 

[fncceo]

None of those other "hobbies" you mentioned are claimed to be not just wrong but to be actively legislated against and marginalized.

To what legislation do you refer? Are you not able to own property or travel freely in the country? Are you prohibited from working where you choose?

I believe you’re feeling of “marginalization” stems from your confusing being marginalzed with not being the center of everyone’s attention all the time.

I would implore you not to be overly dramatic, but I realize that drama is an essential part of your condition.

 

[forkup]

It depends.

On what? Can you give an example of a circumstance where discrimination is morally right?

 

[forkup]

To what legislation do you refer? Are you not able to own property or travel freely in the country? Are you prohibited from working where you choose?

I believe you’re feeling of “marginalization” stems from your confusing being marginalzed with not being the center of everyone’s attention all the time.

I would implore you not to be overly dramatic, but I realize that drama is an essential part of your condition.

For starters.

MSN

 

[Seymour Flops]

Who do you think is more at risk of rape. A woman coinhabiting a prison with a trans woman? Or a trans woman in a male jail?

Were you left speechless by my comments and unable to respond to them?

Since there are so few trans women who are put into women’s prison, each individual woman is less at risk than a male in a male prison. And it is not guaranteed that every biological male put into a women’s prison will commit rapes.

Does that answer your question? then please answer mine

Rape is extremely pervasive and most ex-cons report being raped multiple times even during short sentences. this is not a “what if” or a chance that we’re talking about.

A trans woman, man who likes to dress up as a woman, has virtually a 100% chance of being raped in prison. As does a straight male who has no feelings of being a woman whatsoever. The trans woman should be protected from being raped. But so should every straight “cis” male who goes to prison.

You choose to miss the point that putting a biological male in with a group of women adds to the danger of rape. Why would you insist on adding to that danger, when human rights advocates believe that we should look for ways to reduce it?

I thought this was a thread with you intended to have honest debate?

 

[dblack]

On what? Can you give an example of a circumstance where discrimination is morally right?

Nazis are trying to take over the country. I refuse to serve their brownshirts at my restaurant.

But I don't see much point in getting into the weeds over examples. I think discrimination, for or against other people, for any reason one my dream up, is a basic human right, one we really can't live without. It's also worth noting that modern civil rights doesn't ban all discrimination. It's just an attempt to suppress a handful of unpopular biases (see: "protected classes").

 

[forkup]

Were you left speechless by my comments and unable to respond to them?

Since there are so few trans women who are put into women’s prison, each individual woman is less at risk than a male in a male prison. And it is not guaranteed that every biological male put into a women’s prison will commit rapes.

Does that answer your question? then please answer mine

Rape is extremely pervasive and most ex-cons report being raped multiple times even during short sentences. this is not a “what if” or a chance that we’re talking about.

A trans woman, man who likes to dress up as a woman, has virtually a 100% chance of being raped in prison. As does a straight male who has no feelings of being a woman whatsoever. The trans woman should be protected from being raped. But so should every straight “cis” male who goes to prison.

You choose to miss the point that putting a biological male in with a group of women adds to the danger of rape. Why would you insist on adding to that danger, when human rights advocates believe that we should look for ways to reduce it?

I thought this was a thread with you intended to have honest debate?

Dude, every time you have tried to accuse me of dishonesty, hypocrisy or deflections almost every single time, over several posts, in the course of a couple of years, you have failed. Most of the time while being caught doing the exact thing you try to accuse me off. I count at least 2 posts today, I gave in answer to a question you posed me, which I answered that you simply didn't engage with. One of which you accused me off not answering at all. while I showed you I did. Another one you simply gaslighted me.

I do not deflect, refuse to answer or try any of the dozens of tricks one uses when being intellectually dishonest. At least not on purpose. It simply isn't my style since I consider it the debate form of cheating.

When I ask to tell me who's at the biggest risk for rape. A trans woman in a male prison or a biological woman being raped by a trans woman? "Everybody gets raped in a male prison", is a deflection of the point made, not an answer.

I find this conversation hilarious, frustrating, and a pretty harsh reminder why I quit this board for months. It simply isn't fun when you try to play chess and you play someone who uses stockfish to move, or poker in our cases, when you know the other side deals from the bottom all the time.

 

[alang1216]

But the other way around is fine GTFO
And the "restroom" issue isnt just about restrooms. It includes locker rooms and such. Stop being do disingenuous.

Not true. I don't think anyone would have to explain to a child why someone dressed as a woman was in the ladies room or someone dressed as a man was in the men's room.

If there is an issue with a locker room let the gym or school decide how to handle it. The Federal gov't doesn't need to get involved. And people on the right don't understand how the Federal gov't got so big?

 

[dblack]

If there is an issue with a locker room let the gym or school decide how to handle it. The Federal gov't doesn't need to get involved. And people on the right don't understand how the Federal gov't got so big?

This argument might have gained some traction in the past. But Republicans have culture war to win, and they are all in on using the government to make it happen. Regardless of how big or intrusive it needs to be.

 

[alang1216]

It’s a fair question, but it is easily answered.

I having a person of the same sex be attracted to you as part of life. A girl is in no more danger from a lesbian in the locker room then from a straight girl who just doesn’t particularly like her.

A woman or a girl Having a female-attracted male watching her Undress is a completely different thing. It’s ridiculous for anyone to pretend they don’t see the danger in that.

So it is OK for trans people to use a girl's locker room if they are NOT female-attracted?

Hey I get it, I just don't think the Federal government needs to make the decision for every gym or school district. Do we need a new Federal Department of Gyms and Locker Rooms? Elon would love that.