Zone1 Focusing the LGBTQ debate

[Seymour Flops]

Trans people want to exercise THEIR rights, their opponents want to limit the rights of OTHER people. The onus is on the opponents to concretely demonstrate what harm will be prevented. Their 'feelings' are irrelevant.

Transwomen want to exercise the right to enter the bathrooms and sports teams of the sex that they identify as.

What you would likely call “ciswomen” would like to exercise the right to participate in sports that are not dominated by males and to enter public bathrooms where they will not encounter males.

These are conflicting rights. it is not productive to debate for either side to pretend that the other is claiming a nonexistent right

When rights conflict, often the government must settle the conflict. We have a democratic form of government in which the overwhelming majority of voters believe that the rights of biological women should take precedence in the case of bathrooms and sports teams over the rights of males who identify as women.

We can debate and try to persuade people to change their mind, but right now that is where we stand, and that is the answer.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Question for forkup : should there be such a thing as women’s sports or should we only have basketball teams, football teams and volleyball teams with no sex designation at all?

 

[forkup]

If you would like to redirect a question ... In regard to an individual's choice to engage in sociopathic behavior ...
In attempts to alter whatever social constructs they would prefer not to abide by ... Please do.

I think you use the word "sociopathic" colloquially here. If not, please tell me how being trans is sociopathic.

So let me engage that premise as I understand it. Again, feel free to correct me if I'm straw manning you. I assure you it's not on purpose.

You are stating that society as a whole has no obligation to respect, treat, or even abide behavior it deems outside of its accepted norms. And as such it has the right to treat trans people as social pariah's.

I'm of the opinion that it's much more sociopathic used in the actual sense of the word. To assert that a society carries no responsibility for the well-being of its citizens simply because their behavior falls out of the norm. I'm not saying this to be mean. At least not in a social Democracy.

To really bring it home and directly address your request. America was founded by people who rebelled against the social norms that were imposed on them. The right to freedom of expression as an individual for redress of grievances is an established and well endorsed concept. Yet you seem to claim that this right somehow shouldn't apply. Again, correct me if I'm wrong about that.

 

[Zincwarrior]

You just described an advancement. You know that, right?

Thats fair. At the time, at least in NYC, it was specifically designed to protect women and children given the teeming tenements with no code control and communal bathrooms. I have no issue with gender specific restrooms.

 

[Foxfyre]

After a few months absence I finally feel motivated/masochistic enough to post again on this board. I have decided however for my own sanity to clearly state what I hope to achieve here and how I will go about achieving this.

My goal is to have an honest, good faith debate with people who disagree with me.

In order to achieve this I will try my utmost of not following those that are not interested in the slightest to do the same, down every rabbit hole.

I wanted to preface the OP with this.


Now for the actual meat of the OP.

In order to focus the debate I think it's important to clearly define the terms sex and gender. Since they are often conflated, purposefully by some, but most often out of ignorance by those that listen to those "some".

Sex are the biological traits that are used to define gender. Gender is the social construct with which peoples identity is defined.

This is a distinction that is at the heart of the discussion in my opinion, and one that is denied to exist at all, by those on the right.
It's the common trope. "Leftist can't tell you what a man or woman is." The implication of course being that the distinction is so clear that it's ridiculous to not be able to define a gender clearly.

So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female? I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

This brings me to the social aspect of the question. I've yet to see any rational reason for opposing/hating the trans community that doesn't boil down to the argument that since they feel harmed (using that term very broadly) by the way people define THEMSELVES, therefore any harm (again used broadly) I cause them is justified.

So this is my second question. Can anybody give me a rational reason to assert that their rights supersede those of others?



Questions are encouraged and will be answered without deflection providing those that choose to respond engage with the 2 questions I just posed. I hope this OP to be a 2-way street of people actually talking TOO each other instead of past one another

A biological male is male regardless of what gender he claims to be.
A biological female is female regardless of what gender she claims to be.

He or she has complete right to claim to be whatever gender he/she wants. His/her family, friends and such have every right to address him/her by whatever gender he/she wants to be addressed. But other than in situations in which he/she has authority such as a classroom or business office, he/she has no right to dictate to me what pronouns I must use.

He/she has no right to demand that a biological male be allowed to use the women's public restrooms, locker rooms or other private spaces any more than I have the right to use the restrooms, elevators or whatever reserved for staff in any place. Boys and girls and men and women have been separated in private spaces--restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, sleeping quarters etc. etc. for generations for very good reason, i.e. to protect the females from the generally much stronger and more predatory males.

As for pronouns, I can claim to be royalty but I have no right that you or anybody else address me as 'your majesty. I can claim to be a genius or a mathematical expert or a great surgeon, but I have no right to demand that you acknowledge that.

As an adult I have the right to my life choices that require no contribution or participation by others. I do not have any right to demand that anybody else accommodate the life choices I make, most especially when those are neither mainstream nor accepted as normal by the general population.

 

[forkup]

Like trans women in prison raping and impregnating real women?

Who do you think is more at risk of rape. A woman coinhabiting a prison with a trans woman? Or a trans woman in a male jail?

 

[alang1216]

Oh, we have many times. Having trans women in woman’s only sports harms many more women then it does trans for one example. One trans woman in the locker room can adversely effect every woman in that locker room.

Want more? Like trans women in prison raping and impregnating real women?

Concrete enough chum?

Even assuming all that is true (some links might make it more convincing), why does the Federal government have to get involved and can't leave it to the people that run the locker room or prison?

 

[alang1216]

Transwomen want to exercise the right to enter the bathrooms and sports teams of the sex that they identify as.

What you would likely call “ciswomen” would like to exercise the right to participate in sports that are not dominated by males and to enter public bathrooms where they will not encounter males.

These are conflicting rights. it is not productive to debate for either side to pretend that the other is claiming a nonexistent right

When rights conflict, often the government must settle the conflict. We have a democratic form of government in which the overwhelming majority of voters believe that the rights of biological women should take precedence in the case of bathrooms and sports teams over the rights of males who identify as women.

We can debate and try to persuade people to change their mind, but right now that is where we stand, and that is the answer.

Why not let the girls in a high school make the decision as to whether they want to allow trans girls into the bathrooms and locker rooms? Why should I get to vote on something that will not ever effect me?

 

[TNHarley]

Trans people want to exercise THEIR rights, their opponents want to limit the rights of OTHER people. The onus is on the opponents to concretely demonstrate what harm will be prevented. Their 'feelings' are irrelevant.

So them having special rights is fine. Their feelings are fine. The rest of the country, not so much. Right?
What a load of bigoted BS

 

[forkup]

There is such a thing as left-handed and right-handed people, I would hope you agree?

I deliberately avoided doing any research on handedness, how soon it manifest, what percentage of people are left or right handed etc. Because that’s not relevant. The point is we know there is such a thing as right handed and left-handed people.

They’re also a percentage of ambidextrous people. That fact does not change the fact that there are right- handed people and left-hande people.

Some right handed people may deliberately act as left-handed people, and vice versa, such as baseball players or boxers. But they did not change their dominant hand. They increased their use of the other hand.

forkup

Do you disagree with any of that?

Yes, I agree.

Funny you should give this particular example. There was a time that left-handedness was actively beaten out of people for religious reasons since the left hand was considered unclean. Just like this whole anti-trans movement I suspect is rooted in the religious right recognizing that being gay is no longer as culturally accepted to rail against as it was say... twenty years ago, using trans as a substitute. Society has since recognized that limiting people's use of the dominant hand is morally wrong. Trying to marginalize gay people is wrong, (although looking on this board the concept is certainly not dead.)

And much of the same arguments are simply recycled from those kinds of things.

 

[forkup]

Question for forkup : should there be such a thing as women’s sports or should we only have basketball teams, football teams and volleyball teams with no sex designation at all?

In principle sure. In practice since competitive sports is performance based it would self-sort for certain sports automatically. There are already plenty of sports by the way that have mixed versions of it.

Let me put it more practical. Let's say in football, probably the most physical sport there's a woman that can kick the ball better than her male counterparts, what would be your objection?

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Leave the children alone
sickos

 

[alang1216]

So them having special rights is fine. Their feelings are fine. The rest of the country, not so much. Right?
What a load of bigoted BS

There is nothing special about trans rights in my mind. Everyone should be able to live as they wish and go where they please. If what they do adversely affects others it is on those others to show how they are affected. If they can't show harm, STFU.

 

[TNHarley]

There is nothing special about trans rights in my mind. Everyone should be able to live as they wish and go where they please. If what they do adversely affects others it is on those others to show how they are affected. If they can't show harm, STFU.

So a grown man using a restroom based on SEX, and its the girls that have to come up with a reason why he shouldnt be in there?
Really?

What harm is it for the male to use the male restroom?
They are special rights no matter how you mentally ill cosplayers try to spin it.

 

[forkup]

What do you think that study shows? It seems to show that after two years of hormone treatment males - even non athletic males- continue to have a physical advantage over what the study calls “ciswomen.”

It shows that the physical advantages are marginal at best, and it shows that the detrimental effects of limiting access to sport for trans-people further marginalizes an already marginalized group.

How would be manager of a public swimming pool, or a restaurant, be able to know how an obvious male entering a female space feels?

This is actually a good point. My honest answer is that I don't know, and we probably should be skeptical of people who claim to be trans who have taken no actual steps to transition walking into female spaces.

This is not me saying they are lying but I'm not naive either.

 

[TNHarley]

The left hates females. Whether little girls have to tinkle by mentally ill grown men taking shits 2 feet from there, or its them getting their fu$%ing head bashed in by a male.
Its sad.

 

[BlackSand]

I think you use the word "sociopathic" colloquially here. If not, please tell me how being trans is sociopathic.
So let me engage that premise as I understand it. Again, feel free to correct me if I'm straw manning you. I assure you it's not on purpose.

.

A sociopath ... Is someone who suffers from an anti-social personality disorder.
It becomes more grievous ... In circumstances where it results in harm or bodily injury ...
To oneself or others.

When an individual attempts to deny or manipulate society ... Through deceit and rebellion against society ...
They are a sociopath ... And it doesn't even matter where they are from.

That doesn't change ... If the individual just wants to pretend, they are an alternate gender ... That's denial and deceit.
That doesn't change ... If the individual wants to deny social constructs ... In attempts to manipulate society ...
That's anti-social behavior and rebellion against society.

Sorry if they may not like understanding that ... They probably need to stop doing it.

.​

You are stating that society as a whole has no obligation to respect, treat, or even abide behavior it deems outside of its accepted norms. And as such it has the right to treat trans people as social pariah's.

.

You're not really creating a strawman ... Because that would require straw ...
And you don't even have any of that.

"Respect, treat, abide" ... Forget all that ... Society isn't even required to 'entertain' the individual's desires ...
Or their desire to be anti-social in their behavior.

Society is not responsible for the decisions the individual makes ...
They don't even have to assign a value to the individual's desires ... It's the individual's problem.
A transgender person can be a social pariah ... If that's the way they choose to view themselves ...
Society is not required to.

.​

I'm of the opinion that it's much more sociopathic used in the actual sense of the word. To assert that a society carries no responsibility for the well-being of its citizens simply because their behavior falls out of the norm. I'm not saying this to be mean. At least not in a social Democracy.

.

Society need not be concerned about the individual's desires ... Nor conform to them.
Society's interests are to serve society ... And the individual's Responsibility is their own well-being ...
If they intend to ever enjoy Freedom.

Society is not required to accept an individual's definitions ...
And no one has granted them the power or authority to make society accept their desires ...
Much less consider whatever the individual wants ... As being healthy and improving their wellbeing.

.​

To really bring it home and directly address your request. America was founded by people who rebelled against the social norms that were imposed on them. The right to freedom of expression as an individual for redress of grievances is an established and well endorsed concept. Yet you seem to claim that this right somehow shouldn't apply. Again, correct me if I'm wrong about that.

.

I am not telling individuals who create grievances ... That they cannot do so ...
Nor protest their obvious problems when doing so ...
Nor that I will lock them up using the power of the government ... If they care to continue.

Those individuals will never be able to deceive me ... Or manipulate interpretations of Our Founders ...
In attempts to further support their anti-social behavior and rebellion against society.

Those individuals can be a sociopath if they so choose to be ... But neither I nor society ...
Is required to even entertain any of that nonsense.

They should take some Responsibility for their own problems ... Well-being
And seek qualified help ... That won't just try to blame someone else of 'not being nice'.

Because that's just poppycock ... And will never help the individual ... Or set them Free ...
From the social constructs ... They so desperately want to escape ...

.​

 

[Seymour Flops]

Why not let the girls in a high school make the decision as to whether they want to allow trans girls into the bathrooms and locker rooms? Why should I get to vote on something that will not ever effect me?

An interesting idea.

One of my biggest peeves with this whole deal is that we who are not on the fringe have allowed this to go on and haven’t protested it more strongly. Every time it happened, school board should’ve lost the next election.

In other words adults have a duty to protect these kids from their locker rooms being taken over by males and to protect them from even having to express their opinion about it.

If we did, I believe the majority of girls would say no. Of course I don’t want to dress in front of boys in the locker room. But, I could be wrong. Social media and even mainstream media has conditioned them to believe that boys dressing up as girls and going into a women’s sports team is normal or at least widely accepted. They have been taught that it is evil and bigoted to express discomfort being required to undress under the male gaze as a condition of playing sports.

We need our schools to unteach that lesson. We need to vote for school board members who believe the same thing. Adults make decisions for children all the time. It is our duty, in fact.

 

[forkup]

When I ask this

if not, please tell me how being trans is sociopathic?

And you answer this.

A sociopath ... Is someone who suffers from an anti-social personality disorder.

You really haven't answered anything. You simply have repeated your original statement as fact. It's called begging the question and is a fallacious argument.

So, answer the question if you wish me to respond further.

I will not follow you down a rabbit hole like that.

 

[forkup]

An interesting idea.

One of my biggest peeves with this whole deal is that we who are not on the fringe have allowed this to go on and haven’t protested it more strongly. Every time it happened, school board should’ve lost the next election.

In other words adults have a duty to protect these kids from their locker rooms being taken over by males and to protect them from even having to express their opinion about it.

If we did, I believe the majority of girls would say no. Of course I don’t want to dress in front of boys in the locker room. But, I could be wrong. Social media and even mainstream media has conditioned them to believe that boys dressing up as girls and going into a women’s sports team is normal or at least widely accepted. They have been taught that it is evil and bigoted to express discomfort being required to undress under the male gaze as a condition of playing sports.

We need our schools to unteach that lesson. We need to vote for school board members who believe the same thing. Adults make decisions for children all the time. It is our duty, in fact.

The reverse is also true. Aren't you claiming that being trans is wrong and should not be accepted? And are in fact saying this should be taught to children as fact?

So, acceptance of differences is to be discouraged, and demanding conformity should be encouraged. This is not bigotry how?