CDZ Fear and guns....a discussion.

[ChrisL]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Carrying a gun when going into a situation that could be dangerous is rational. Carrying a gun every moment you are outside your door... that is fear.

And the woman who was raped in the college parking lot, 50 ft. from the campus police station. She had to leave her gun at home that night because the campus was a gun free zone....except for the rapist....he brought his gun there....

Do you think she was dumb to want to carry her gun on campus that night?

And the rapist.....raped 3 other women after that woman, and murdered the 3rd...........so the gun free zone very likely contributed to several rapes and one murder....

I am very familiar with this case. You and I went over this before. You did not mentioned here that she was caught by surprised from behind to fit your agenda....... A rapist or thugs will NEVER make an announcement I'm going to rape you in 15 minutes..... I think you don't know that.....
Even if she carried her gun with her. Where do you think her gun was tucked or carry with her? In her vagina? Walking around with a gun in her hand? Have you seen anyone walking to parking lot with a gun in their hand? For you to make this kind of example to fit your propaganda is pathetic.
I also told you maybe this is the third time that I got rob by 2 thugs in Atlantic city casino parking lots.
If I had my gun with me in my waist. My chances of pulling my gun unlock the safety then fire..... is zero.... none...... no chance........ But 100% they could have killed me.

What's pathetic is you wanting to leave women unarmed and defenseless because you are afraid of guns. THAT is pathetic.

What in the world are you talking about woman?
Read my hips...... Where in the world I say women should stop protecting themselves? You are way off and pathetic and dumb.

Read your hips?

My point stands, you have no say in my decision. It's a personal decision that each person makes, as is their right to do so.

Bringing up criminals does not a point make. Criminals do not follow laws. That is why they are criminals. The fact that this has to be explained over and over again is very tiresome.

 

[ChrisL]

I completely agree with you Emily....Law Enforcement,The Military and some Proper Gun Clubs should have the ability to carry a Gun......but NO ONE else,steve but I can't see it happening in the US,so many folk think it's safer to carry a Gun.........Which is Totally Mental when you think about it,just sayin

Hi theliq
What is wrong with training security guards and other citizens
using the same process, including screening, required of police and military?

That's like training more people to do CPR or use a defibrillator,
instead of only the professional EMS, doctors and nurses.

Anyone can take lifeguard training, but there ARE certain steps you do and don't do.
The safety precautions HAVE to be followed, such as not letting a drowning person take you under.
Same with CPR and other first aid / first response procedures that have to be followed,
such as not moving a person with a possible head/spinal injury.

It doesn't make the training any less rigorous just because the person isn't a paid professional.
Why can the training, oath and screening required of officers and militaries
be offered to (or required of) ALL citizens who want this same responsibility for using arms for defense?

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.

Obviously not. When you plan and commit murder, you are not law abiding. You are a criminal and a murderer.

 

[2aguy]

To the other side....can you answer this question...

The real world example.....

The woman who was raped on her college campus, 50 feet from the campus police station...who had to leave her gun at home because the campus was a gun free zone...and raped at gun point because the rapist brought a gun into the gun free zone....

Was she paranoid because she wanted to bring her gun with her to the campus that night?

And Suzanah Gratia Hupp......who left her gun in her truck when she went to dinner at Luby's Cafe...because it was a felony to carry a gun in her purse.....

Was she paranoid to want to carry her gun into the restauarant........even after the guy drove his truck into the restaurant and murdered her parents and a bunch of other people....

Were these women paranoid for wanting to carry a gun on them?

Not really on the other side but I would like to tackle this issue. First of all I'm saddened by these events. The girl at the campus, was she also not allowed to carry mace or pepper spray? I have heard these have adverted attackers in the past. Also somebody who is very paranoid carrying a weapon might discharge at someone who was just about to ask for directions or an individual pulling a stupid prank by trying to scare here. Anyone who approaches a scared woman in the dark could run the risk of accidentally getting shot. This has also happened in the past. Also the rapist might have killed her when he noticed she had a gun.

As for Suzanah Gratia Hupp, I do not know for sure if things would have worked out better is she had a gun. Maybe her parents would be alive today if she had it with her or maybe she would have died also. I understand the desire to protect yourself. I'm all for it except in these incidents of "accidents". Too many stories of people taking or stealing their parents/friends guns and causing more death and violence. If I knew for sure that her bringing the gun in would have prevented those deaths then yes I would support her right to carry.

Those are a lot of maybes.....considering that Americans actually use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack. Have you ever actually researched the topic? Your post points to you not having actaully looked at gun self defense.

There were 11.1 million people carrying guns in 2013....and in 2013 there were only 505 accidental gun deaths....

Can you see how you are wrong in your concept?

How many accidental gun deaths would there be if there were zero people carrying guns in 2013. Also your stat about stopping violent attacks. How could any of these stats show that the violent attack would have ended up in a death.

And if no one drove cars there would be 35,000 more people alive.......

11.1 million people carrying guns, over 320 million guns in private hands..... vs. ..... 505 accidental gun deaths.

Did you actually think about those numbers before you posted.....the fact, the truth the reality that that is an amazing rate of low accidental death with so many guns in private hands....it actually means that normal American gun owners are incredibly, amazingly responsible with their guns.....

And keep in mind what Stranger said over at Extranosalley.....some of those 505 are suicides without notes.....so the number is even smaller.....

 

[ChrisL]

Some people are going to abuse their rights. That is what happens when you have rights. That is not a logical reason for anyone else to give up anything. Nope, we aren't going to budge.

 

[Tuatara]

Emily....Well I was being somewhat Sarcastic in as much that comparing preparedness of rain boots or fire extinguishers to people carrying and potentially using a Gun(because they are frightened of a shadow or frightened of their own shadow) of this there is no comparison at all.steve

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

 

[ChrisL]

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

It's really not any of your business though! Not only that, but you wouldn't understand what it is to be an American. K? Your opinions are really quite irrelevant and hold no power here.

 

[ChrisL]

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

BTW, have you read that poster's postings? Just curious. What point do you think he made that should be taken seriously? Please elaborate. Thanks.

 

[ChrisL]

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

Show me one of his posts addressed to me that should be taken seriously, and then I will CONSIDER taking you seriously.

But in reality, nobody really cares what you think about our rights. You don't really understand, so it's to be expected.

 

[ChrisL]

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

You're from Canada? I'm sure your country has plenty of issues for you to be concerned about. Like crack smoking politicians!!!

 

[Tuatara]

Hi theliq
What is wrong with training security guards and other citizens
using the same process, including screening, required of police and military?

That's like training more people to do CPR or use a defibrillator,
instead of only the professional EMS, doctors and nurses.

Anyone can take lifeguard training, but there ARE certain steps you do and don't do.
The safety precautions HAVE to be followed, such as not letting a drowning person take you under.
Same with CPR and other first aid / first response procedures that have to be followed,
such as not moving a person with a possible head/spinal injury.

It doesn't make the training any less rigorous just because the person isn't a paid professional.
Why can the training, oath and screening required of officers and militaries
be offered to (or required of) ALL citizens who want this same responsibility for using arms for defense?

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.

Obviously not. When you plan and commit murder, you are not law abiding. You are a criminal and a murderer.

I'm speaking about just before they did the shooting. Many people who have killed someone were a law abiding citizen before they pulled the trigger.

 

[ChrisL]

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.

Obviously not. When you plan and commit murder, you are not law abiding. You are a criminal and a murderer.

I'm speaking about just before they did the shooting. Many people who have killed someone were a law abiding citizen before they pulled the trigger.

And? What's your point? That the gun made them kill?

 

[2aguy]

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.

Obviously not. When you plan and commit murder, you are not law abiding. You are a criminal and a murderer.

I'm speaking about just before they did the shooting. Many people who have killed someone were a law abiding citizen before they pulled the trigger.

Actually, that is not true.....90% of gun murderers have long criminal records.....it is a myth that normal people use guns to commit crimes. And the other interesting fact...the majority of victims of gun crime also have long histories of crime and violence.

 

[ChrisL]

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.

Obviously not. When you plan and commit murder, you are not law abiding. You are a criminal and a murderer.

I'm speaking about just before they did the shooting. Many people who have killed someone were a law abiding citizen before they pulled the trigger.

We had a woman who recently ran her car into a crowd of people, killing some. Did the car make her do it? What's your point?

 

[ChrisL]

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.

Obviously not. When you plan and commit murder, you are not law abiding. You are a criminal and a murderer.

I'm speaking about just before they did the shooting. Many people who have killed someone were a law abiding citizen before they pulled the trigger.

Do have statistics to back up your claims?

 

[Tuatara]

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

It's really not any of your business though! Not only that, but you wouldn't understand what it is to be an American. K? Your opinions are really quite irrelevant and hold no power here.

It is my business. As a Canadian who has friends and relatives in the US and who has travelled to the US, the safety of the country as a whole is my business. Also as a decent human being stopping other people from being killed regardless of what country they live in is called compassion. Telling people their opinions don't matter because they live in another country is not.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

It's really not any of your business though! Not only that, but you wouldn't understand what it is to be an American. K? Your opinions are really quite irrelevant and hold no power here.

It is my business. As a Canadian who has friends and relatives in the US and who has travelled to the US, the safety of the country as a whole is my business. Also as a decent human being stopping other people from being killed regardless of what country they live in is called compassion. Telling people their opinions don't matter because they live in another country is not.

They don't matter. Sorry about that.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

It's really not any of your business though! Not only that, but you wouldn't understand what it is to be an American. K? Your opinions are really quite irrelevant and hold no power here.

It is my business. As a Canadian who has friends and relatives in the US and who has travelled to the US, the safety of the country as a whole is my business. Also as a decent human being stopping other people from being killed regardless of what country they live in is called compassion. Telling people their opinions don't matter because they live in another country is not.

You can have your opinions, but they don't matter here. Also, they are wrong. Lol. We don't really care about what you do up there in Canada either. We would rather you leave us alone instead of sticking your nose into citizen rights. Thanks.

 

[2aguy]

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.

Obviously not. When you plan and commit murder, you are not law abiding. You are a criminal and a murderer.

I'm speaking about just before they did the shooting. Many people who have killed someone were a law abiding citizen before they pulled the trigger.

Many people who have killed someone were a law abiding citizen before they pulled the trigger.

Actual research into criminal behavior points out that you and many other people who are against gun ownership are wrong. Normal people do not murder other people simply because they own a gun....the people who use a gun, or any other tool, to commit murder are abnormal...and have long histories of violence and long criminal records.....

The Kate and Mauser study.......

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I. VIOLENCE: THE DECISIVENESS OF SOCIAL FACTORS

One reason the extent of gun ownership in a society does not spur the murder rate is that murderers are not spread evenly throughout the population.

Analysis of perpetrator studies shows that violent criminals—especially murderers—“almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behav‐ ior.”37

So it would not appreciably raise violence if all law‐ abiding, responsible people had firearms because they are not the ones who rape, rob, or murder.38 By the same token, violent crime would not fall if guns were totally banned to civilians. As the respective examples of Luxembourg and Russia suggest,39 individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use. 40

--------------------------

III. DO ORDINARY PEOPLE MURDER?

The “more guns equal more death” mantra seems plausible only when viewed through the rubric that murders mostly in‐ volve ordinary people who kill because they have access to a firearm when they get angry. If this were true, murder might well increase where people have ready access to firearms, but the available data provides no such correlation.

Nations and areas with more guns per capita do not have higher murder rates than those with fewer guns per capita.53

Nevertheless, critics of gun ownership often argue that a “gun in the closet to protect against burglars will most likely be used to shoot a spouse in a moment of rage . . . . The problem is you and me—law‐abiding folks;”54

that banning handgun posses‐ sion only for those with criminal records will “fail to protect us from the most likely source of handgun murder: ordinary citi‐ zens;”55 that “most gun‐related homicides . . . are the result of impulsive actions taken by individuals who have little or no criminal background or who are known to the victims;”56 that “the majority of firearm homicide[s occur] . . . not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other;”57 that each year there are thousands of gun murders “by law‐abiding citizens who might have stayed law‐abiding if they had not possessed firearms.”58

These comments appear to rest on no evidence and actually con‐ tradict facts that have so uniformly been established by homicide studies dating back to the 1890s that they have become “crimino‐ logical axioms.”59 Insofar as studies focus on perpetrators, they show that neither a majority, nor many, nor virtually any murder‐ ers are ordinary “law‐abiding citizens.”60

Rather, almost all mur‐ derers are extremely aberrant individuals with life histories of violence, psychopathology, substance abuse, and other dangerous behaviors. “The vast majority of persons involved in life‐ threatening violence have a long criminal record with many prior contacts with the justice system.”61 “Thus homicide—[whether] of a stranger or [of] someone known to the offender—‘is usually part of a pattern of violence, engaged in by people who are known . . . as violence prone.’”62



Though only 15% of Americans over the age of 15 have arrest records,63 approximately 90 percent of “adult mur‐ derers have adult records, with an average adult criminal career [involving crimes committed as an adult rather than a child] of six or more years, including four major adult felony arrests.”64

These national statistics dovetail with data from local nineteenth and twentieth century studies. For example: victims as well as offenders [in 1950s and 1960s Philadelphia murders] . . . tended to be people with prior police records, usually for violent crimes such as as‐ sault.”65


“The great majority of both perpetrators and victims of [1970s Harlem] assaults and murders had previous [adult] arrests, probably over 80% or more.”66 Boston police and probation officers in the 1990s agreed that of those juvenile‐perpetrated murders where all the facts were known, virtually all were committed by gang members, though the killing was not necessarily gang‐ directed. 67 One example would be a gang member who stabs his girlfriend to death in a fit of anger.68 Regardless of their arrests for other crimes, 80% of 1997 Atlanta murder arrestees had at least one earlier drug offense with 70% having 3 or more prior drug of‐ fenses.69

A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders committed in that city in the years 2003–2005 found that “[m]ore than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.”70 Baltimore police figures show that “92 percent of murder suspects had [prior] criminal records in 2006.”71 Several of the more recent homicide studies just reviewed

 

[ChrisL]

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

It's really not any of your business though! Not only that, but you wouldn't understand what it is to be an American. K? Your opinions are really quite irrelevant and hold no power here.

It is my business. As a Canadian who has friends and relatives in the US and who has travelled to the US, the safety of the country as a whole is my business. Also as a decent human being stopping other people from being killed regardless of what country they live in is called compassion. Telling people their opinions don't matter because they live in another country is not.

None of your friends or relatives are forced to be here. If they don't like our constitutional rights, they are free to leave at any time.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

Quite serious. Dismissing someone's opinion because they are from a different country is ridiculous. Counter their argument by all means but to dismisss it because they are from another country shows you're not open to debate the actual issue.

It's really not any of your business though! Not only that, but you wouldn't understand what it is to be an American. K? Your opinions are really quite irrelevant and hold no power here.

It is my business. As a Canadian who has friends and relatives in the US and who has travelled to the US, the safety of the country as a whole is my business. Also as a decent human being stopping other people from being killed regardless of what country they live in is called compassion. Telling people their opinions don't matter because they live in another country is not.

So, your argument is that we should give up our constitutionally guaranteed second amendment right to bear arms because you fear for your relatives and friends? Is that your argument? Well, let me just tell you, unless your friends and relatives are involved in criminal activity, they have just as good a chance of being struck by lightning as being shot. K? Feel better now?