Fbi Report Ends Nra Nonsense About "good Guys With Guns"

[Rotagilla]

So, again, what you are saying as long as it's someone else's problem, that's fine with you.

Besides the fact you are outright making shit up when you claim 2.5 million DGU's, the fact is, if there are so few incidents when you have to use the gun tells me they aren't needed.

.....I've never used a fire extinguisher to put out a fire at my house, either...but I still have 2.

 

[JoeB131]

Or we can just ban all civilian gun ownership like every other civilized country has done. That works, too.

Ever heard of "Switzerland"? Mandatory gun ownership.

Only after training as part of a reserve army with strict monitoring and issuing by government.

Maybe you should read about Switzerland's laws, they are actually kind of restrictive.

Guns in Switzerland Firearms gun law and gun control

 

[JoeB131]

So, again, what you are saying as long as it's someone else's problem, that's fine with you.

Besides the fact you are outright making shit up when you claim 2.5 million DGU's, the fact is, if there are so few incidents when you have to use the gun tells me they aren't needed.

.....I've never used a fire extinguisher to put out a fire at my house, either...but I still have 2.

If fire extinguishers were 43 times more likely to start a fire than stop one, you wouldn't want them in your house.

 

[Rotagilla]

So, again, what you are saying as long as it's someone else's problem, that's fine with you.

Besides the fact you are outright making shit up when you claim 2.5 million DGU's, the fact is, if there are so few incidents when you have to use the gun tells me they aren't needed.

.....I've never used a fire extinguisher to put out a fire at my house, either...but I still have 2.

If fire extinguishers were 43 times more likely to start a fire than stop one, you wouldn't want them in your house.

IF


....invent all the fantasy scenarios you like...no one is distracted by that stale trick..


Tell ya what...put a gun on the table in front of you and sit there and don't move until it goes off by itself and kills someone....Let's see how long that takes.

 

[RKMBrown]

A

ccepting that there really are X number of DGUs that ended in no one being killed, (I don't), then that crook just goes down the block and victimizes someone else.

So really, on balance, no one was "Saved".

Well, the person who was smart enough to know that one day they might be a victim of a violent thug, and got a permit to carry a gun...they are saved 2.5 million times a year....the sap who decided it was dumb to get a gun and training...they are the ones who lose out...and get raped, robbed, brutally beaten, maimed and murdered....

So, again, what you are saying as long as it's someone else's problem, that's fine with you.

Besides the fact you are outright making shit up when you claim 2.5 million DGU's, the fact is, if there are so few incidents when you have to use the gun tells me they aren't needed.

ROFL too many incidents we have to get rid of them... not enough incidents they aren't needed. ROFL What is the right number of incidents to prove we should have a right to defend ourselves?

 

[2aguy]

I am not making up the 2.5 million gun uses. that comes from just one study done by Criminologist, Dr. Gary Kleck from his study in 1993....he did the study to correct errors in the methods of the other 13 studies he looked....2 of those,studies,put lives saved and crimes stopped at over 3 million.


I posted all of the studies...even obama's study through the CDC, which put the lives saved and crimes,stopped at between 500,000 to 3 million after examine 19 separate studies on the subject....

I will post those studies again so you can see the results....over a 40 year period, from 19 separate studies from both private and government sources....this topic is incredibly well researched....

banning guns from society only works in heterogous societies with voluntary compliance of the population to not commit crime and a police force that can search people at will, both as a person and their homes, and who can extract confessions from people with no consequences....that is how Japan does it....do you want those police powers here?

And the Swiss, they are lucky, but they have had their mass shootings,as,well, and they have all the ingredients to have the next one...

 

[2aguy]

the 43% number is a lie...the anti gun researcher used criminal relationships and already violent homes where police had intervened numerous times...the results were wrong...and the researcher was forced,to admit his stats were far lower you need to do more research...

 

[turtledude]

[
Hey panty soiler

everytime a crime is prevented by an armed citizen, its a win. It doesn't matter if the criminal is killed, wounded, or soils his pants, the citizen is saved

Uh, no.

Accepting that there really are X number of DGUs that ended in no one being killed, (I don't), then that crook just goes down the block and victimizes someone else.

So really, on balance, no one was "Saved".

that is sort of like cases where a background check prevents someone from buying a gun from a seller who does the BGC but then the buyer gets a gun from another source

nothing happened to help public safety.

I deal at an individual level. If the gun saves me from an assault that is good If the mope then assaults someone like you-that's your fault

Or we can just ban all civilian gun ownership like every other civilized country has done. That works, too.

then the citizens should use their guns to resist such idiocy. I advocate them targeting loud mouthed gun haters if the government engages in such fascism

 

[turtledude]

the 43% number is a lie...the anti gun researcher used criminal relationships and already violent homes where police had intervened numerous times...the results were wrong...and the researcher was forced,to admit his stats were far lower you need to do more research...

the asshole also counted homes that had no guns UNTIL a killer broke into the home with a gun and shot someone

 

[2aguy]

Here are the gun studies again...

Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Here are the numbers from the studies linked to in Dr. Kleck's study...the year the study was done and the number of times they found in their research that guns were used to save lives and stop violent crime...

Field...1976....3,052,717

Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")

Obama's CDC...
from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Kleck points out in his paper...

All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year. None of the surveys implied estimates even remotely like the 65,000 to 82,000 figures derived from the NCVS. To date, there has been no confirmation of even the most approximate sort of the NCVS estimates. Indeed, no survey has ever yielded an estimate which is of the same magnitude as those derived from the NCVS.​

Here are the actual tables from Dr. Kleck's research....the actual totals are the numbers above...for some reason they don't copy over from the paper...so I put them up top...match the name and year in the first part of the post and you can find it below...​

Table 1 FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS [80]
Survey:	Field	Bordua	Cambridge Reports	DMIa	DMIb	Hart	Ohio
Area:	California	Illinois	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	Ohio
Year of Interview	1976	1977	1978	1978	1978	1981	1982
Population Covered	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Registered voters	Registered voters	Registered voters	"Residents"
Gun Type Covered	Handguns	All guns	Handguns	All guns	All guns	Handguns	Handguns
Recall Period:	Ever/1, 2 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	No	No	No	Yes	Yes	No
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	No	No	Yes	Yes	Yes	No
Defensive question asked of:	All Rs	All Rs	Protection hgun owners	All Rs	All Rs	All Rs	Rs in hgun households
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Household	Household	Household	Respondent
% Who Used	1.4/3/8.6[a]	5.0	18	15	7	4	6.5
% Who Fired Gun	2.9	n.a.	12	6	n.a.	n.a.	2.6
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[Page 183]

Table 1 (continued) FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS
Survey:	Time/CNN	Mauser	Gallup	Gallup	L.A. Times	Tarrance
Area:	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.
Year of Interview	1989	1990	1991	1993	1994	1994
Population Covered	"Firearm owners"	Residents	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults
Gun Type Covered	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns
Recall Period:	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	Yes	No	No	No	Yes
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	Yes	No	Yes	Yes	Yes
Defensive question asked of:	Gun owners	All Rs	Rs in hgun hshlds	Gun owners	All	All
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Hshld.	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent/ Household
% Who Used	n.a.	3.79	8	11	8[c]	1/2[d]
% Who Fired Gun	9-16e	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Table 1, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.


So I'm not making numbers up...they are from this research...

 

[2aguy]

Okay, JoeB131...you have huge amounts of research that backs up the claim that at least, at least 760,000 times a year a gun is used to save lives and stop violent crime...and it could go as high as 3 million times a year....and that from obama's CDC....

I imagine you still don't believe it...

 

[turtledude]

its a waste of time arguing crime statistics with anti gun diaper wearing cowards like Joe. Its not about controlling crime. He just throws that crap out in an effort to convince the weak minded he has public safety at heart. when in reality, he hates the politics of gun owners and his jihad against gun ownership is to punish gun owners for not being teat sucking socialist assholes

 

[Vandalshandle]

commit acts of Genocide against Native Americans

Genocide was not comitted against the early Americans...

I've seen denial on a daily basis on this board, but never have I seen it this blatant before!

Hint: Hitler justified what he was doing to the Jews based on what we did not Native Americans.

 

[2aguy]

its a waste of time arguing crime statistics with anti gun diaper wearing cowards like Joe. Its not about controlling crime. He just throws that crap out in an effort to convince the weak minded he has public safety at heart. when in reality, he hates the politics of gun owners and his jihad against gun ownership is to punish gun owners for not being teat sucking socialist assholes

Excellent point...the reason I still do it...because they never quit...they won't stop until they get their bans...also, in trying to address each point they make I find new research and new ways to consolidate that research into these posts...they can deny all of it...which they will...but seeing the actual research...knowing that it is real and not made up and destroys their arguments....is a good thing...

 

[2aguy]

Hint: Hitler justified what he was doing to the Jews based on what we did not Native Americans.

Again...relocation was terrible, the interchange of diseases was what killed the Native Americans and it wasn't intentional...hitler was a monster who planned on killing them all on his own...as did stalin, mao, pol pot, fidel, mussolini and the Japanese government....all the socialists fullfilling their plans at creating utopia...

 

[2aguy]

And another thing...the early Americans did monstorous things as well...it was a two way street...ask the victims of the Aztecs, the Incas, the prisoners of any of the North American tribes and the victims of their massacres as well...people back then, all people, had a real capacity to commit atrocities against each other...both sides, not just the one...

 

[Vandalshandle]

Sand Creek massacre - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Vandalshandle]

Wounded Knee Massacre - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Vandalshandle]

Trail of Tears - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[2aguy]

And you have as many massacres of Europeans and Americans by early Americans...

Indian massacre of 1622 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And what about the Aztec altars...and the Inca...and the other massacres committed by the indians...against each other and the Europeans and Americans....?