F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[rylah]

The F-35's already visited Iran unnoticed.
As far as I understand the real deal is the F-22,
and what the Israelis developed until US forced closure.

That was one of the sore spots on Iran trying to put in S-300 missile batteries in Syria. They wanted to put them exactly where the F-35 has to refuel on the way in and on the way out of Iran. In this respect, the Israelis have no sense of humor. Iran has to build an Air Base to hit Israel with an Aircraft because it really doesn't have much of an inflight refueling fleet. Israel has one of the best in the world. Okay, not up to par with the US but who is. Even Britain needed the US refuelers for the Falklands.

The analysis might be correct,
if not for a false assumption regarding refueling and launching points.
Much of middle eastern skies are open for the IAF, and much more is opening.

The stealth of the craft is also a compatible function of the political alliance, everyone knows who, but no group of members can know for sure where, or be concretely linked to the mission itself or a particular action.

It did cause Russians to fly by them over Lebanon at night to the opposite direction completely unnoticed, making it seem seem as if they were starting approach from the Mediterranean, when already at the western border of Syria.

Please expand on this. You are a bit confusing or maybe I am a bit confused.

How much do You think can be said?

Israeli fighters are stationed not only in Israel.
And the F-35 is much more than a single machine, it's a component of a huge system, including cyber warfare that for the last several years has been calibrated in practice and coordination with the US and several other allies in the region. Its stealth only ends with the construction and materials.

No Arab country will be able to point a finger at another, because most already opened their bases and skies for the IAF operations, and none have the capability to actually track the craft.

Everyone knows who, everyone knows the direction of the targets, no one knows exactly where from.
As long as it's a guess game - all the allied Arab countries have an alibi so to speak.

A truly magnificent machine from both the strategic and political standpoints.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The F-35's already visited Iran unnoticed.
As far as I understand the real deal is the F-22,
and what the Israelis developed until US forced closure.

That was one of the sore spots on Iran trying to put in S-300 missile batteries in Syria. They wanted to put them exactly where the F-35 has to refuel on the way in and on the way out of Iran. In this respect, the Israelis have no sense of humor. Iran has to build an Air Base to hit Israel with an Aircraft because it really doesn't have much of an inflight refueling fleet. Israel has one of the best in the world. Okay, not up to par with the US but who is. Even Britain needed the US refuelers for the Falklands.

The analysis might be correct,
if not for a false assumption regarding refueling and launching points.
Much of middle eastern skies are open for the IAF, and much more is opening.

The stealth of the craft is also a compatible function of the political alliance, everyone knows who, but no group of members can know for sure where, or be concretely linked to the mission itself or a particular action.

It did cause Russians to fly by them over Lebanon at night to the opposite direction completely unnoticed, making it seem seem as if they were starting approach from the Mediterranean, when already at the western border of Syria.

Please expand on this. You are a bit confusing or maybe I am a bit confused.

How much do You think can be said?

Israeli fighters are stationed not only in Israel.
And the F-35 is much more than a single machine, it's a component of a huge system, including cyber warfare that for the last several years has been calibrated in practice and coordination with the US and several other allies in the region. Its stealth only ends with the construction and materials.

No Arab country will be able to point a finger at another, because most already opened their bases and skies for the IAF operations, and none have the capability to actually track the craft.

Everyone knows who, everyone knows the direction of the targets, no one knows exactly where from.
As long as it's a guess game - all the allied Arab countries have an alibi so to speak.

A truly magnificent machine from both the strategic and political standpoints.

It still lacks the unrefueled range to make it that far into Iran so they need to refuel over Syria. Iran wanted to put in SA sites right about where the F-35 would have to refuel. You don't have to stop the F-35. You can just stop the refueling birds. Israel had other thoughts on that one and no Iranian SA sites are there. If Iran puts them in, Israel takes them out. And all Syria does is lodge complaint after complaint and Russia might do a small grumble but that's about it.

 

[Bleipriester]

I new era of air war?

Meet the new mini version of the F-35 stealth jet

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The cost of the F-35A ends up being a bargain in today's standard and even when compared to other years. It's now equal to the cost of a F-18E/F per unit and equal to the F-15X. There have been enough made to pay for it's R&D and it's price has dropped considerably. The price was kept so high because of the B model. And the B model kept the A from being introduced and has lead to the delay and the cost of the C.

The two most expensive weapons systems in history when adjusted is the B-29 and the Manhattan Program in that order. Closely followed by the B-2 and then the F-22 program. The F-35 program has since dropped from this list.

Here is a chart showing the purchase cost of aircraft not adjusted to today's dollars.

It's a little bit misleading. The F-15E is now the F-15SA and has gone up to about 110 mil a copy while the F35A has dropped below 90 mil a copy and will probably end up right around 80 when a few years.

The F-16E Block 60 is running about 80 mil a copy. The price you see here is for the old F-16C/D Block 40 which is out of production.

This is just for fighters. The B-2 goes off the scale at about 2 billion a copy. And with so few made, it dwarfs the program costs of the F-35.

 

[rylah]

The F-35's already visited Iran unnoticed.
As far as I understand the real deal is the F-22,
and what the Israelis developed until US forced closure.

That was one of the sore spots on Iran trying to put in S-300 missile batteries in Syria. They wanted to put them exactly where the F-35 has to refuel on the way in and on the way out of Iran. In this respect, the Israelis have no sense of humor. Iran has to build an Air Base to hit Israel with an Aircraft because it really doesn't have much of an inflight refueling fleet. Israel has one of the best in the world. Okay, not up to par with the US but who is. Even Britain needed the US refuelers for the Falklands.

The analysis might be correct,
if not for a false assumption regarding refueling and launching points.
Much of middle eastern skies are open for the IAF, and much more is opening.

The stealth of the craft is also a compatible function of the political alliance, everyone knows who, but no group of members can know for sure where, or be concretely linked to the mission itself or a particular action.

It did cause Russians to fly by them over Lebanon at night to the opposite direction completely unnoticed, making it seem seem as if they were starting approach from the Mediterranean, when already at the western border of Syria.

Please expand on this. You are a bit confusing or maybe I am a bit confused.

How much do You think can be said?

Israeli fighters are stationed not only in Israel.
And the F-35 is much more than a single machine, it's a component of a huge system, including cyber warfare that for the last several years has been calibrated in practice and coordination with the US and several other allies in the region. Its stealth only ends with the construction and materials.

No Arab country will be able to point a finger at another, because most already opened their bases and skies for the IAF operations, and none have the capability to actually track the craft.

Everyone knows who, everyone knows the direction of the targets, no one knows exactly where from.
As long as it's a guess game - all the allied Arab countries have an alibi so to speak.

A truly magnificent machine from both the strategic and political standpoints.

It still lacks the unrefueled range to make it that far into Iran so they need to refuel over Syria. Iran wanted to put in SA sites right about where the F-35 would have to refuel. You don't have to stop the F-35. You can just stop the refueling birds. Israel had other thoughts on that one and no Iranian SA sites are there. If Iran puts them in, Israel takes them out. And all Syria does is lodge complaint after complaint and Russia might do a small grumble but that's about it.

The path You're describing is one of the longest and probably most saturated.
Do You assume the refueling range is about the distance between Riyadh and Tehran?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That was one of the sore spots on Iran trying to put in S-300 missile batteries in Syria. They wanted to put them exactly where the F-35 has to refuel on the way in and on the way out of Iran. In this respect, the Israelis have no sense of humor. Iran has to build an Air Base to hit Israel with an Aircraft because it really doesn't have much of an inflight refueling fleet. Israel has one of the best in the world. Okay, not up to par with the US but who is. Even Britain needed the US refuelers for the Falklands.

The analysis might be correct,
if not for a false assumption regarding refueling and launching points.
Much of middle eastern skies are open for the IAF, and much more is opening.

The stealth of the craft is also a compatible function of the political alliance, everyone knows who, but no group of members can know for sure where, or be concretely linked to the mission itself or a particular action.

It did cause Russians to fly by them over Lebanon at night to the opposite direction completely unnoticed, making it seem seem as if they were starting approach from the Mediterranean, when already at the western border of Syria.

Please expand on this. You are a bit confusing or maybe I am a bit confused.

How much do You think can be said?

Israeli fighters are stationed not only in Israel.
And the F-35 is much more than a single machine, it's a component of a huge system, including cyber warfare that for the last several years has been calibrated in practice and coordination with the US and several other allies in the region. Its stealth only ends with the construction and materials.

No Arab country will be able to point a finger at another, because most already opened their bases and skies for the IAF operations, and none have the capability to actually track the craft.

Everyone knows who, everyone knows the direction of the targets, no one knows exactly where from.
As long as it's a guess game - all the allied Arab countries have an alibi so to speak.

A truly magnificent machine from both the strategic and political standpoints.

It still lacks the unrefueled range to make it that far into Iran so they need to refuel over Syria. Iran wanted to put in SA sites right about where the F-35 would have to refuel. You don't have to stop the F-35. You can just stop the refueling birds. Israel had other thoughts on that one and no Iranian SA sites are there. If Iran puts them in, Israel takes them out. And all Syria does is lodge complaint after complaint and Russia might do a small grumble but that's about it.

The path You're describing is one of the longest and probably most saturated.
Do You assume the refueling range is about the distance between Riyadh and Tehran?

You are assuming that SA and Jordan will give them permission for the overflight. And yes, the unrefueled flight you are suggesting is actually longer for much of Iran. The Israelis probably won't bother asking the Syrians nor the Iraqis for the overflight. They'll just go ahead and do it. But in order to do it, they will have to refuel somewhere over Syria both ways. Same goes for going via SA Jordan. Chances are, if they need to, they may do it both ways or are already doing it both ways already.

 

[DrainBamage]

USS Wasp was seen rolling through Taiwan Straits configured as pocket carrier, ten F-35Bs and four Ospreys were on the deck. It'll be participating in amphibious assault exercises with Philippine military. USS Essex was the LHD being used to perform hundreds of sorties in the Middle East as part of 13th MEU. That's a lot of F-35s deployed and seeing action despite ManOnTheStreet's assurances that F-35s would never do anything but sit in hangars.

 

[Manonthestreet]

At a Senate Armed Services Committee on the Air Force’s fiscal 2020 budget request, the service’s top official said the decision to seek eight F-15X aircraft is a short-term patch, as 800 fewer F-35s are operational than planned. US Air Force defends F-15X buy to skeptical Inhofe, Reed
Wow how many yrs of production is that.....Gotta be at least a decade

 

[Daryl Hunt]

At a Senate Armed Services Committee on the Air Force’s fiscal 2020 budget request, the service’s top official said the decision to seek eight F-15X aircraft is a short-term patch, as 800 fewer F-35s are operational than planned. US Air Force defends F-15X buy to skeptical Inhofe, Reed
Wow how many yrs of production is that.....Gotta be at least a decade

The fact remains that there aren't enough manufacturing lines for the F-35. The ones that were supposed to done overseas never happened so all production falls on Lockheed Martin USA. And all of a sudden, there are tons of countries that want the F-35. The F-35A was never supposed to replace the F-15. The F-22 was supposed to do that and that just didn't quite work out. So we have a choice of running the old updated F-15A models into the ground(they already have an extremely high operating cost) or get replacements for it. Boeing has a perfectly good manufacturing line ready to go and can produce them for just about 78K a copy and they can use the supply lines from the E and recent C and Ds. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

And the F-35 needs another line started up to make it's quota. We can't depend on the ones that may or may not happen overseas. Besides, I feel a little uneasy teaching them how to do the type of stealth that the F-35 has become. I don't think it's a good idea. Maybe the Generals don't think so either.

 

[Manonthestreet]

At a Senate Armed Services Committee on the Air Force’s fiscal 2020 budget request, the service’s top official said the decision to seek eight F-15X aircraft is a short-term patch, as 800 fewer F-35s are operational than planned. US Air Force defends F-15X buy to skeptical Inhofe, Reed
Wow how many yrs of production is that.....Gotta be at least a decade

The fact remains that there aren't enough manufacturing lines for the F-35. The ones that were supposed to done overseas never happened so all production falls on Lockheed Martin USA. And all of a sudden, there are tons of countries that want the F-35. The F-35A was never supposed to replace the F-15. The F-22 was supposed to do that and that just didn't quite work out. So we have a choice of running the old updated F-15A models into the ground(they already have an extremely high operating cost) or get replacements for it. Boeing has a perfectly good manufacturing line ready to go and can produce them for just about 78K a copy and they can use the supply lines from the E and recent C and Ds. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

And the F-35 needs another line started up to make it's quota. We can't depend on the ones that may or may not happen overseas. Besides, I feel a little uneasy teaching them how to do the type of stealth that the F-35 has become. I don't think it's a good idea. Maybe the Generals don't think so either.

Arent they turning them pout in Italy. I heard the the drive to disperse production all over the world was huge blunder....no control over quality

 

[Daryl Hunt]

At a Senate Armed Services Committee on the Air Force’s fiscal 2020 budget request, the service’s top official said the decision to seek eight F-15X aircraft is a short-term patch, as 800 fewer F-35s are operational than planned. US Air Force defends F-15X buy to skeptical Inhofe, Reed
Wow how many yrs of production is that.....Gotta be at least a decade

The fact remains that there aren't enough manufacturing lines for the F-35. The ones that were supposed to done overseas never happened so all production falls on Lockheed Martin USA. And all of a sudden, there are tons of countries that want the F-35. The F-35A was never supposed to replace the F-15. The F-22 was supposed to do that and that just didn't quite work out. So we have a choice of running the old updated F-15A models into the ground(they already have an extremely high operating cost) or get replacements for it. Boeing has a perfectly good manufacturing line ready to go and can produce them for just about 78K a copy and they can use the supply lines from the E and recent C and Ds. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

And the F-35 needs another line started up to make it's quota. We can't depend on the ones that may or may not happen overseas. Besides, I feel a little uneasy teaching them how to do the type of stealth that the F-35 has become. I don't think it's a good idea. Maybe the Generals don't think so either.

Arent they turning them pout in Italy. I heard the the drive to disperse production all over the world was huge blunder....no control over quality

They have turned out a few. But it's questionable how many others they will churn out. It seems the ones they already have in the Italian AF may be the only ones they purchase. But the Military of Defense for Italy is wafting on it right now since it would probably mean the loss of over 6000 jobs that Italy badly needs. USA can start another line and take up the slack if they do shut their plant down. The only thing Italy can do is lose either way on this one. Politics at it's worst.

 

[Manonthestreet]

The F-35 program brings together the world’s most experienced aerospace industry leaders, including Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, BAE Systems and Pratt & Whitney. The global team also includes more than 1,400 suppliers from domestic and international companies around the world. This landmark project combines team expertise with sophisticated manufacturing, engineering and technological capabilities. https://www.f35.com/about/life-cycle/production no date that I could see.

 

[DrainBamage]

At a Senate Armed Services Committee on the Air Force’s fiscal 2020 budget request, the service’s top official said the decision to seek eight F-15X aircraft is a short-term patch, as 800 fewer F-35s are operational than planned. US Air Force defends F-15X buy to skeptical Inhofe, Reed
Wow how many yrs of production is that.....Gotta be at least a decade

Congrats, you have FINALLY found a legit criticism of the F-35 program, it's way late.

After all your idiotic shit/lies about it can't fly high/fast enough, can't fight, isn't stealthy, has a higher IR signature, etc. you like the blind man in the woods stumbled upon something.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

At a Senate Armed Services Committee on the Air Force’s fiscal 2020 budget request, the service’s top official said the decision to seek eight F-15X aircraft is a short-term patch, as 800 fewer F-35s are operational than planned. US Air Force defends F-15X buy to skeptical Inhofe, Reed
Wow how many yrs of production is that.....Gotta be at least a decade

Congrats, you have FINALLY found a legit criticism of the F-35 program, it's way late.

After all your idiotic shit/lies about it can't fly high/fast enough, can't fight, isn't stealthy, has a higher IR signature, etc. you like the blind man in the woods stumbled upon something.

He didn't find a thing. What he found was that if they bring on the F-35 on the rate some no aero people want, they won't have enough asses to fill the seats. It's all about pilots. The training involved to bring a F-15 pilot to a full F-35 pilot is very long. That leaves a bunch of F-15Cs on the ground without pilots. By bringing in the X model, they can get a C or and E model pilot trained in a matter of days which keeps the ass seat filled. And they can go after other butts to fill the F-35.

 

[DrainBamage]

The F-35 program death spiral continues, Greece/Poland/Romania....

Greece to examine F-35 acquisition, says defense minister | Kathimerini
Greece will consider the possibility of acquiring the US-made F-35 fighter jets as part of its efforts to upgrade its Air Force fleet, Defense Minister Evangelos Apostolakis said on Friday, following remarks by a US official on expanding the sales of the aircraft. Media reported that a US Pentagon official told Congress on Thursday that the country is considering expanding sales of Lockheed Martin Corp-made F-35 fighter jets to five new nations including Romania, Greece and Poland. “Beyond the upgrade of the F-16 fighter jets, we are in the process of selecting a new plane for Greece, so we can gradually move to the new generation of aircraft,” he told journalists during a visit to Andravida Air Base, western Peloponnese.

 

[DrainBamage]

F35 rcs is larger than F-22 marginally smaller than f-18

Not even ...don't know where you got that ...F22 rcs much smaller than f35

Was reading a paper on RCS that reminded me of Manonthestreet's constant (and hilariously naive) bleating about how F-35 isn't stealthy and your complete inability to back this claim up with any facts other than because he says so.


Detection range of F-35 versus F-18 E/F, what you call "marginally" is 6 miles versus 60 miles. The F-35 in that graph could take out the IADS element with a JDAM, and that's exactly what they've been using for F-35 SEAD/DEAD in exercises. The F-18 is right on the margins of being able to deploy standoff glide weapons like JSOW and SDB. You'd have to be colossally stupid to claim the F-35 isn't stealthy or that it's advantage over previous gen is marginal.

Analysis of F-35 RCS, blue line is just the shape and green line is shape + radar absorbing materials. The F-35 in this illustration is facing to the left. Units are dBsm so 10*log(RCS in square meters) so 0 dBsm = 1 square meter RCS, -10=0.1 square meters, -20=0.01 square meters, 10=10, 20=100, etc. We'll note this also effectively puts to bed your claim F-35 is only stealthy frontal-aspect, obviously it's optimized frontal (like all stealth aircraft) but at worse angles it's still less than 0.01 sm RCS.

For comparison sake, here is F-35 and F-22 analysis of shape only. It's pretty close, F-35 is better frontal and quarters but F-22 looks better from sides and rear. Regardless it's close and clearly both are very stealthy aircraft. Also note stealth coating (not included in this image) is superior on F-35.

Finally for giggles here is RCS of F-15, like the others facing to the left. Total brick from the front due to intakes with exposed fans, brick from the side due to 90 degree tails. This would only get uglier carrying external ordnance, although the minor tweak of slightly canted tails on F-15SE would probably drastically reduce that side exposure. They would also use radar absorbing materials to mitigate all around and carry weapons internally.

 

[DrainBamage]

F35 has frontal stealth only

Hello! Still waiting on you to explain how a plane with an RCS less than 0.01 square meters at it's absolute worst angle has frontal stealth only.

Below image is RCS analysis of an F-35 facing to the left, blue is shape and green is with coating. Even without the stealth coating the plane is 0.1 sm for about 160 degrees frontal. Where were you getting this info that it's only stealthy from head-on?

 

[SandSquid]

F35 has frontal stealth only

Hello! Still waiting on you to explain how a plane with an RCS less than 0.01 square meters at it's absolute worst angle has frontal stealth only.

Below image is RCS analysis of an F-35 facing to the left, blue is shape and green is with coating. Even without the stealth coating the plane is 0.1 sm for about 160 degrees frontal. Where were you getting this info that it's only stealthy from head-on?

So from it's side the F35 has a .001 square meter radar cross section.

that is a 1.5 inch square. Basically the size of a watch face. And at worst after passing by shows up the size of a smartphone.

But he thinks that isn't stealth?

 

[DrainBamage]

The sidekick bumps internal AAM load to six: Lockheed Develops Rack to Make F-35A/C a Six-Shooter - Seapower

ARLINGTON, Va. — The builder of the F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter has designed a new weapons rack to enable the aircraft to carry two more missiles internally. The new rack, called Sidekick, enables each of the two weapons bays of the Air Force F-35A and Navy carrier-capable F-35C to carry three AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) instead of the current two, for a total of six internally carried AMRAAMs. Speaking May 1 to reporters at a Lockheed Martin media briefing, a company F-35 test pilot, Tony ‘Brick’ Wilson, said the rack was developed entirely with company internal research and development funds. The rack is not compatible with the vertical lift Marine Corps F-35B version, which has smaller weapons bay. The F-35 can carry more AMRAAMs on external pylons, but Wilson pointed out that carrying two more internally preserves the stealth characteristics of the F-35. “The extra missiles add a little weight but are not adding extra drag,” Wilson said.

 

[Bleipriester]

Grounded.

"The F-35A is only fully mission capable 34% of the time, and the F-35B is only fully mission capable 16% of the time. The F-35C, however, lags far behind even those low numbers, being fully capable of everything required of it on the battlefield only 2% of the time, according to the GAO."

F-35 fully mission capable 27 percent of the time: GOA