F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Manonthestreet]

Aaaaaaand Israel suspends its last batch of 25 Brewster Buffalos for Super Eagles.....

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Aaaaaaand Israel suspends its last batch of 25 Brewster Buffalos for Super Eagles.....

You seem to step in it all the time. Israel has a large number of birds, both 16s and 15s from the 70s that badly need replacement in order to stay on top in the Middle East. They aren't buying new F-16s. They are buying new F-15Is that can do the job of both the 16 and the 15. It's not about money. If it were, they would also be buying the newest upgraded F-16 as well. They aren't slowing down on their F-35A purchases though. They are looking for buyers for the F-16C/Ds and use that money to buy new F-15Is. There are a number of countries standing in line to purchase those used F-16s. What comes out of it is Israel as one of the most sophisticated Air Forces in the World second to none. Even more than the US maybe except for numbers and the F-22. Not a bad plan.

Your buddies in Iran should be crapping their baggy pants right about now.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Aaaaaaand Israel suspends its last batch of 25 Brewster Buffalos for Super Eagles.....

You seem to step in it all the time. Israel has a large number of birds, both 16s and 15s from the 70s that badly need replacement in order to stay on top in the Middle East. They aren't buying new F-16s. They are buying new F-15Is that can do the job of both the 16 and the 15. It's not about money. If it were, they would also be buying the newest upgraded F-16 as well. They aren't slowing down on their F-35A purchases though. They are looking for buyers for the F-16C/Ds and use that money to buy new F-15Is. There are a number of countries standing in line to purchase those used F-16s. What comes out of it is Israel as one of the most sophisticated Air Forces in the World second to none. Even more than the US maybe except for numbers and the F-22. Not a bad plan.

Your buddies in Iran should be crapping their baggy pants right about now.

Better check bottom of your shoe.....last 25 on hold......

 

[DrainBamage]

Brewster Buffalos

It takes a small man to spend so much effort trying to avoid admitting they were wrong. Every prediction you've made on F-35 has failed, yet here you are stubbornly making an even bigger fool of yourself. I love it.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Israel Prefers Old F-15s to F-35s

 

[Manonthestreet]

Brewster Buffalos

It takes a small man to spend so much effort trying to avoid admitting they were wrong. Every prediction you've made on F-35 has failed, yet here you are stubbornly making an even bigger fool of yourself. I love it.

I'm the one with links all you 2 have is hot air

 

[DrainBamage]

I'm the one with links all you 2 have is hot air

And that sums you up pretty nicely... one who can regurgitate links to amateur blogs but has little taste for actually being able to discuss or back up any assertions being made. You post a link, someone points out a flaw in the logic of the blogger, and *poof* Manonthestreet is never heard from again.

You're the guy who said F-35 couldn't fight, and when it started putting up all the 20-1 type kill ratios you had nothing to say.

You're the guy who said SU-35 is better because it flies higher and faster, but can't answer how it does that with a combat load.

You're the guy who said entire F-35C was in serious trouble because of CATOBAR issue, which they fixed with a minor tweak to tension bar.

You're the guy who said intl customers are fleeing, yet you are uninterested in every headline about them signing on.

But we know you won't actually discuss any of those, because you're just the guy with more links. You don't actually understand anything, if you are asked to back up your argument *poof* he's gone. In Manonthestreet's world every fighter flies at full afterburner on every sortie to achieve max speed, and is at airshow stripdown no combat load. In Manonthestreet's world every pilot saying F-35 dominates is a liar even though they actually fly, but his armchair bloggers are the true experts.

Links indeed.

 

[DrainBamage]

As an added bonus, Manonthestreet assures us he knows the RCS of an F-35, since it's "published specs"

When asked to source these specs (DoD doesn't publish any RCS specs we all know this) our village idiot does the self-reference.... he did it somewhere else in this 100+ page so it's up to us to find it. In other words, talking out of his ass.

So Manonthestreet, since you're suddenly reengaged in the thread, exactly where does DoD list their official specs for F-35 RCS?

*crickets*

Links indeed.

 

[westwall]

The only bird that is in the US Inventory that can run with the F-35 with two drop tanks and a full missile loadout (not counting the F-22) is the F-15 which could probably run the F-35 down.

You got it, I just saw an article where an F-15 pilot was discussing the top speeds:

Cold War Eagle Driver: F-15 pilot reveals all

“Dirty, which is to say in normal training or combat configuration, I doubt anyone has gotten an Eagle much over Mach 1.8 in level flight.”

So all these posts MoronOnTheStreet has made lamenting the F-35 as being too slow to be effective, but it's top speed in a combat configuration of mach 1.6 is only barely slower than a combat configured F-15, and surely faster than combat loaded F-16 or F-18. MoronOnTheStreet thinks puddle deep about things, he sees the top speed of a stripped down air show fighter and figures that is a useful practical barometer.

To take that farther, mach 1.6 is the minimum program requirement for F-35 speed, which means an F-35C can fly at mach 1.6. Given that a F-35A is more aerodynamically efficient and weights 5,500 pounds less than an F-35C who really thinks an F-35A can only fly mach 1.6?

It's troubling how we all use "mach" as a measure of speed, even though it is, it is every misleading. At sea level Mach 1.8 is 1360 mph, at 30,000 feet is only 1220. A big difference. Of course all speeds I used are approximate.

To add, it's a real bear to even run Mach at near sea level. The air is thick, the drag is high and the leading edges heat up quick. Let me paint a Fictitious Scenario that never happened (wink, wink)

You need to get close up pictures of a military installation on the Kamchatka Peninsula but your sat is out of place. The SR-71 is not available. What do you do. You fly in a RC-135 Camera version with the new engines TDY into Elmendorf with replacement engines. You speed is slightly less than 600 mph advertised. But it can be done as sealevel. But that's the advertised top speed. So you come in low and fast. You start out low and slow, conserving fuel. You are trying to be as quiet as possible at this point.

Meanwhile, you have already launched an EC-130 that is on station just outside of international waters. They are tracking it. It appears to be flying from Fairbanks to Japan much like a Cargo Plane. No real threat.

As you approach with your RC, you turn on the speed. you hit it up to right around 500 mph and will be over your target in a matter of minutes, you slow down, hit the cameras, turn the bird back over the water and hit the water injection. For the next 15 minutes, you blow black smoke out your tail pipes and keep it below 200 feet off the caps.

The enemy picked you up right after you crossed the 12 mile line coming in. They launched their alert birds. Mig-31s. These things are going to be hitting Mach 2 in a matter of a few minutes. They are going to be passing 20K feet about the time you are making your turn back back towards the water after bagging the pics. The EC-130 goes to work. The enemy now has trouble with communications and radar. So do you but who really cares at this point. The EC can't stay on station but only a couple of minutes. Your RC is now hitting his top speed of 580 mph. The Mig can't really use his radar missiles. You drop your RC down to 50 feet above the caps which disables any long ranged heat seekers. Now, the Mig has to get up close, low and personal. The RC is burning gas fast but he is loaded with it so it's not a concern since he's also a full blown tanker. The Mig now has drop down low and he runs into a real problem. He has to slow down considerably. He is running into a heat problem and he is cobbling fuel like a bandit. The Tanker goes well past his 580mph top speed and enters into transonic at Mach .95. He is buffeting and shaking all over the place. This is an area he was never designed to fly at. In fact, it's not an area ANY aircraft is designed to fly at. The Mig has to overtake him and has to expend a lot of gas and keep at full AB to do it at sea level. He has about 15 minutes of total flight time to do it from the time he launched. That means he has only about 2 minutes of real pursuit time. He is pursuing at Mach 1.2. He fires his heat seakers but they can't lock on. He gets one short burst from his guns but he can't do enough damage to bring the tanker down. The Mig's hail mary fails. The RC makes it out barely. The EC has already left. And the Growlers are waiting to make sure nothing else can get close to the RC later on.

The RC slows down. He's now down to 3 engines and only able to make about 350 mph. He lands back at Elmendorf. All 4 engines are smoked, the entire airframe has been shaken to pieces. There are bits and pieces that are just plain missing. After a full engine swap, the bird is scheduled for a full Depot overhaul. But the pictures are good. Mission accomplished.

Just remember, this never happened. The names of the Aircraft have been changed to protect the Guilty. But at sea level, even a Cargo Plane has a chance of outrunning a fighter. It just might get down to who has the most gas. And if you fighter is loaded to the gills and has trouble maintaining over Mach 1, he can't really fly at subsonic. He will have to go below it and the Tanker type will be on equal footing if he is willing to sacrifice and engine. But he has 4 and can afford it. Your fighter has 2 and can't afford it. Sea Level makes everything pretty much equal at this point.

Why would the fighter go down low to where he has to fight air density instead of staying high, advancing ahead of the target, and then split essing to drop down on the target from above? No muss, no fuss. Come in on a flank attack where the radar cross section is HUGE and the AA-9, even though a shit missile, shouldn't have a problem acquiring the target. And if the missiles don't work (I agree the AA-11 has a very remote chance of acquiring) then you have 260 rounds of 23mm that you can rake the '135 with from stem to stern. Yes, it may survive that, but it's doubtful.

For your hit and run camera mission to work i would want to see a couple of F-15s as escort.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Aaaaaaand Israel suspends its last batch of 25 Brewster Buffalos for Super Eagles.....

You seem to step in it all the time. Israel has a large number of birds, both 16s and 15s from the 70s that badly need replacement in order to stay on top in the Middle East. They aren't buying new F-16s. They are buying new F-15Is that can do the job of both the 16 and the 15. It's not about money. If it were, they would also be buying the newest upgraded F-16 as well. They aren't slowing down on their F-35A purchases though. They are looking for buyers for the F-16C/Ds and use that money to buy new F-15Is. There are a number of countries standing in line to purchase those used F-16s. What comes out of it is Israel as one of the most sophisticated Air Forces in the World second to none. Even more than the US maybe except for numbers and the F-22. Not a bad plan.

Your buddies in Iran should be crapping their baggy pants right about now.

Better check bottom of your shoe.....last 25 on hold......

You left out the real facts on this one. The Israelis are looking at replacing their old 1970 series F-15 and 16 birds that are a bit tired. Like the US, they have early birds that need replacement. What they are thinking of doing is selling off the old F-16C/D models, using that money to help buy new F-15I 2040C models and still by 25 F-35As. Now, that makes a lot of sense. Using the F-35A and the F-15 together is an unbeatable matchup. This way, they can have a F-35A flying forward while a F-15 2040C flies lag with it's 16 missiles ready to feed the F-35 as it identifies hostiles. Plus, the F-15 can be loaded with a huge amount of standoff ground attack weapons for the same purpose. The F-15 2040C is about the only Fighter with a really decent payload that will have the range of the Israeli F-35A with it's conformal fuel tanks. This means it can easily operate anywhere over Iran it wishes to operate at. The F-15 2040C is built off the F-15SE with all the extra bells and whistles. It's a hard combo to go up against.

Once again, boyunderthetarmac, you lose again.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The only bird that is in the US Inventory that can run with the F-35 with two drop tanks and a full missile loadout (not counting the F-22) is the F-15 which could probably run the F-35 down.

You got it, I just saw an article where an F-15 pilot was discussing the top speeds:

Cold War Eagle Driver: F-15 pilot reveals all

“Dirty, which is to say in normal training or combat configuration, I doubt anyone has gotten an Eagle much over Mach 1.8 in level flight.”

So all these posts MoronOnTheStreet has made lamenting the F-35 as being too slow to be effective, but it's top speed in a combat configuration of mach 1.6 is only barely slower than a combat configured F-15, and surely faster than combat loaded F-16 or F-18. MoronOnTheStreet thinks puddle deep about things, he sees the top speed of a stripped down air show fighter and figures that is a useful practical barometer.

To take that farther, mach 1.6 is the minimum program requirement for F-35 speed, which means an F-35C can fly at mach 1.6. Given that a F-35A is more aerodynamically efficient and weights 5,500 pounds less than an F-35C who really thinks an F-35A can only fly mach 1.6?

It's troubling how we all use "mach" as a measure of speed, even though it is, it is every misleading. At sea level Mach 1.8 is 1360 mph, at 30,000 feet is only 1220. A big difference. Of course all speeds I used are approximate.

To add, it's a real bear to even run Mach at near sea level. The air is thick, the drag is high and the leading edges heat up quick. Let me paint a Fictitious Scenario that never happened (wink, wink)

You need to get close up pictures of a military installation on the Kamchatka Peninsula but your sat is out of place. The SR-71 is not available. What do you do. You fly in a RC-135 Camera version with the new engines TDY into Elmendorf with replacement engines. You speed is slightly less than 600 mph advertised. But it can be done as sealevel. But that's the advertised top speed. So you come in low and fast. You start out low and slow, conserving fuel. You are trying to be as quiet as possible at this point.

Meanwhile, you have already launched an EC-130 that is on station just outside of international waters. They are tracking it. It appears to be flying from Fairbanks to Japan much like a Cargo Plane. No real threat.

As you approach with your RC, you turn on the speed. you hit it up to right around 500 mph and will be over your target in a matter of minutes, you slow down, hit the cameras, turn the bird back over the water and hit the water injection. For the next 15 minutes, you blow black smoke out your tail pipes and keep it below 200 feet off the caps.

The enemy picked you up right after you crossed the 12 mile line coming in. They launched their alert birds. Mig-31s. These things are going to be hitting Mach 2 in a matter of a few minutes. They are going to be passing 20K feet about the time you are making your turn back back towards the water after bagging the pics. The EC-130 goes to work. The enemy now has trouble with communications and radar. So do you but who really cares at this point. The EC can't stay on station but only a couple of minutes. Your RC is now hitting his top speed of 580 mph. The Mig can't really use his radar missiles. You drop your RC down to 50 feet above the caps which disables any long ranged heat seekers. Now, the Mig has to get up close, low and personal. The RC is burning gas fast but he is loaded with it so it's not a concern since he's also a full blown tanker. The Mig now has drop down low and he runs into a real problem. He has to slow down considerably. He is running into a heat problem and he is cobbling fuel like a bandit. The Tanker goes well past his 580mph top speed and enters into transonic at Mach .95. He is buffeting and shaking all over the place. This is an area he was never designed to fly at. In fact, it's not an area ANY aircraft is designed to fly at. The Mig has to overtake him and has to expend a lot of gas and keep at full AB to do it at sea level. He has about 15 minutes of total flight time to do it from the time he launched. That means he has only about 2 minutes of real pursuit time. He is pursuing at Mach 1.2. He fires his heat seakers but they can't lock on. He gets one short burst from his guns but he can't do enough damage to bring the tanker down. The Mig's hail mary fails. The RC makes it out barely. The EC has already left. And the Growlers are waiting to make sure nothing else can get close to the RC later on.

The RC slows down. He's now down to 3 engines and only able to make about 350 mph. He lands back at Elmendorf. All 4 engines are smoked, the entire airframe has been shaken to pieces. There are bits and pieces that are just plain missing. After a full engine swap, the bird is scheduled for a full Depot overhaul. But the pictures are good. Mission accomplished.

Just remember, this never happened. The names of the Aircraft have been changed to protect the Guilty. But at sea level, even a Cargo Plane has a chance of outrunning a fighter. It just might get down to who has the most gas. And if you fighter is loaded to the gills and has trouble maintaining over Mach 1, he can't really fly at subsonic. He will have to go below it and the Tanker type will be on equal footing if he is willing to sacrifice and engine. But he has 4 and can afford it. Your fighter has 2 and can't afford it. Sea Level makes everything pretty much equal at this point.

Why would the fighter go down low to where he has to fight air density instead of staying high, advancing ahead of the target, and then split essing to drop down on the target from above? No muss, no fuss. Come in on a flank attack where the radar cross section is HUGE and the AA-9, even though a shit missile, shouldn't have a problem acquiring the target. And if the missiles don't work (I agree the AA-11 has a very remote chance of acquiring) then you have 260 rounds of 23mm that you can rake the '135 with from stem to stern. Yes, it may survive that, but it's doubtful.

For your hit and run camera mission to work i would want to see a couple of F-15s as escort.

It's an EC and RC game. You know he's out there somewhere. But it's going to require visual to do it. Flying high won't cut it. You lost the GAC that the Russians rely on so heavily. This is actually an old scenario from the 80s that was presented. The only fighter that had any chance of success of intercepting was the Mig-25. All others didn't have the speed from ground launch. Plus, the Mig-25 was the only Soviet Fighter with the possible radar to pull it off. I would say that there was as much a chance of failure as there was as of success.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Aaaaaaand Israel suspends its last batch of 25 Brewster Buffalos for Super Eagles.....

You seem to step in it all the time. Israel has a large number of birds, both 16s and 15s from the 70s that badly need replacement in order to stay on top in the Middle East. They aren't buying new F-16s. They are buying new F-15Is that can do the job of both the 16 and the 15. It's not about money. If it were, they would also be buying the newest upgraded F-16 as well. They aren't slowing down on their F-35A purchases though. They are looking for buyers for the F-16C/Ds and use that money to buy new F-15Is. There are a number of countries standing in line to purchase those used F-16s. What comes out of it is Israel as one of the most sophisticated Air Forces in the World second to none. Even more than the US maybe except for numbers and the F-22. Not a bad plan.

Your buddies in Iran should be crapping their baggy pants right about now.

Better check bottom of your shoe.....last 25 on hold......

You left out the real facts on this one. The Israelis are looking at replacing their old 1970 series F-15 and 16 birds that are a bit tired. Like the US, they have early birds that need replacement. What they are thinking of doing is selling off the old F-16C/D models, using that money to help buy new F-15I 2040C models and still by 25 F-35As. Now, that makes a lot of sense. Using the F-35A and the F-15 together is an unbeatable matchup. This way, they can have a F-35A flying forward while a F-15 2040C flies lag with it's 16 missiles ready to feed the F-35 as it identifies hostiles. Plus, the F-15 can be loaded with a huge amount of standoff ground attack weapons for the same purpose. The F-15 2040C is about the only Fighter with a really decent payload that will have the range of the Israeli F-35A with it's conformal fuel tanks. This means it can easily operate anywhere over Iran it wishes to operate at. The F-15 2040C is built off the F-15SE with all the extra bells and whistles. It's a hard combo to go up against.

Once again, boyunderthetarmac, you lose again.

And yet the buy is on old ...all your bs doesn't negate that. By time they get done replacing F-15s that'll be several yrs down the road ....order may as well be cancelled. Big article in real clear defense today arguing against cancelling US F35 buy ....very curious .....wouldn't ya say ...post it later

 

[westwall]

The only bird that is in the US Inventory that can run with the F-35 with two drop tanks and a full missile loadout (not counting the F-22) is the F-15 which could probably run the F-35 down.

You got it, I just saw an article where an F-15 pilot was discussing the top speeds:

Cold War Eagle Driver: F-15 pilot reveals all

“Dirty, which is to say in normal training or combat configuration, I doubt anyone has gotten an Eagle much over Mach 1.8 in level flight.”

So all these posts MoronOnTheStreet has made lamenting the F-35 as being too slow to be effective, but it's top speed in a combat configuration of mach 1.6 is only barely slower than a combat configured F-15, and surely faster than combat loaded F-16 or F-18. MoronOnTheStreet thinks puddle deep about things, he sees the top speed of a stripped down air show fighter and figures that is a useful practical barometer.

To take that farther, mach 1.6 is the minimum program requirement for F-35 speed, which means an F-35C can fly at mach 1.6. Given that a F-35A is more aerodynamically efficient and weights 5,500 pounds less than an F-35C who really thinks an F-35A can only fly mach 1.6?

It's troubling how we all use "mach" as a measure of speed, even though it is, it is every misleading. At sea level Mach 1.8 is 1360 mph, at 30,000 feet is only 1220. A big difference. Of course all speeds I used are approximate.

To add, it's a real bear to even run Mach at near sea level. The air is thick, the drag is high and the leading edges heat up quick. Let me paint a Fictitious Scenario that never happened (wink, wink)

You need to get close up pictures of a military installation on the Kamchatka Peninsula but your sat is out of place. The SR-71 is not available. What do you do. You fly in a RC-135 Camera version with the new engines TDY into Elmendorf with replacement engines. You speed is slightly less than 600 mph advertised. But it can be done as sealevel. But that's the advertised top speed. So you come in low and fast. You start out low and slow, conserving fuel. You are trying to be as quiet as possible at this point.

Meanwhile, you have already launched an EC-130 that is on station just outside of international waters. They are tracking it. It appears to be flying from Fairbanks to Japan much like a Cargo Plane. No real threat.

As you approach with your RC, you turn on the speed. you hit it up to right around 500 mph and will be over your target in a matter of minutes, you slow down, hit the cameras, turn the bird back over the water and hit the water injection. For the next 15 minutes, you blow black smoke out your tail pipes and keep it below 200 feet off the caps.

The enemy picked you up right after you crossed the 12 mile line coming in. They launched their alert birds. Mig-31s. These things are going to be hitting Mach 2 in a matter of a few minutes. They are going to be passing 20K feet about the time you are making your turn back back towards the water after bagging the pics. The EC-130 goes to work. The enemy now has trouble with communications and radar. So do you but who really cares at this point. The EC can't stay on station but only a couple of minutes. Your RC is now hitting his top speed of 580 mph. The Mig can't really use his radar missiles. You drop your RC down to 50 feet above the caps which disables any long ranged heat seekers. Now, the Mig has to get up close, low and personal. The RC is burning gas fast but he is loaded with it so it's not a concern since he's also a full blown tanker. The Mig now has drop down low and he runs into a real problem. He has to slow down considerably. He is running into a heat problem and he is cobbling fuel like a bandit. The Tanker goes well past his 580mph top speed and enters into transonic at Mach .95. He is buffeting and shaking all over the place. This is an area he was never designed to fly at. In fact, it's not an area ANY aircraft is designed to fly at. The Mig has to overtake him and has to expend a lot of gas and keep at full AB to do it at sea level. He has about 15 minutes of total flight time to do it from the time he launched. That means he has only about 2 minutes of real pursuit time. He is pursuing at Mach 1.2. He fires his heat seakers but they can't lock on. He gets one short burst from his guns but he can't do enough damage to bring the tanker down. The Mig's hail mary fails. The RC makes it out barely. The EC has already left. And the Growlers are waiting to make sure nothing else can get close to the RC later on.

The RC slows down. He's now down to 3 engines and only able to make about 350 mph. He lands back at Elmendorf. All 4 engines are smoked, the entire airframe has been shaken to pieces. There are bits and pieces that are just plain missing. After a full engine swap, the bird is scheduled for a full Depot overhaul. But the pictures are good. Mission accomplished.

Just remember, this never happened. The names of the Aircraft have been changed to protect the Guilty. But at sea level, even a Cargo Plane has a chance of outrunning a fighter. It just might get down to who has the most gas. And if you fighter is loaded to the gills and has trouble maintaining over Mach 1, he can't really fly at subsonic. He will have to go below it and the Tanker type will be on equal footing if he is willing to sacrifice and engine. But he has 4 and can afford it. Your fighter has 2 and can't afford it. Sea Level makes everything pretty much equal at this point.

Why would the fighter go down low to where he has to fight air density instead of staying high, advancing ahead of the target, and then split essing to drop down on the target from above? No muss, no fuss. Come in on a flank attack where the radar cross section is HUGE and the AA-9, even though a shit missile, shouldn't have a problem acquiring the target. And if the missiles don't work (I agree the AA-11 has a very remote chance of acquiring) then you have 260 rounds of 23mm that you can rake the '135 with from stem to stern. Yes, it may survive that, but it's doubtful.

For your hit and run camera mission to work i would want to see a couple of F-15s as escort.

It's an EC and RC game. You know he's out there somewhere. But it's going to require visual to do it. Flying high won't cut it. You lost the GAC that the Russians rely on so heavily. This is actually an old scenario from the 80s that was presented. The only fighter that had any chance of success of intercepting was the Mig-25. All others didn't have the speed from ground launch. Plus, the Mig-25 was the only Soviet Fighter with the possible radar to pull it off. I would say that there was as much a chance of failure as there was as of success.

Flying high gives you the best chance to visually spot the aircraft. Low and fast and you are viewing a very small swath of ocean. High and low speed and you get to scan far more ocean for your target. You already have a target area, you simply do a time/distance eventual homeplate calculation, and you KNOW the target has to be along a certain vector. All you have to do is intercept it. The EC-130 actually helps the MiG because you automatically know the target MUST be within the region of coverage.

That's why if you don't have a MiGcap, you are in deep trouble.

 

[Manonthestreet]

https://www.realcleardefense.com/ar...ir_superiority_they_need_the_f-35_113685.html
Could the US buy be in jeopardy...what have the Israelis learned that made them "postpone final buy? Great sensor platform but very limited weapons capability....perhaps limiting them to say twice your F117 would make more sense. To buy F35 bs you have to believe in the one missile one kill mantra...which never happens in real world. Once in a dogfight it has no way to exit until someone is dead or out of ammo because its too slow.Its a specialty platform, not backbone fighter they bill it as.

 

[DrainBamage]

And yet the buy is on old ...all your bs doesn't negate that. By time they get done replacing F-15s that'll be several yrs down the road ....order may as well be cancelled.

You continue to post things that scream "clueless" in this thread, it's free entertainment.

They are using F-15s and F-35s for different roles, they aren't going to replace F-15s with F-35s down the road. They would replace the F-16Is with F-35s.

 

[DrainBamage]

https://www.realcleardefense.com/ar...ir_superiority_they_need_the_f-35_113685.html

So let me get this straight, Mr. "I've got the most links" who measures his knowledge in ability to regurgitate is posting an article where a veteran pilot says:

"If we want to fight, win, and live to fly another day, we need the F-35"

Sounds like you've got a serious case of selective sourcing Mr. Links.

Great sensor platform but very limited weapons capability....perhaps limiting them to say twice your F117 would make more sense. To buy F35 bs you have to believe in the one missile one kill mantra...which never happens in real world.

They will carry six AAMs internally in AA role, which is actually quite comparable to other modern fighters. You really should read up on things before you post about them.

Once in a dogfight it has no way to exit until someone is dead or out of ammo because its too slow.I

And here he is again not understand the speed thing, so let's try the same question:

Article was posted where F-15 pilot says his F-15 (top speed clean mach 2.5) maxed out at mach 1.8 in combat load, because of increased drag.
An SU-35 has a clean top speed of mach 2.25, so using same function would probably be about mach 1.55 in combat configuration.
An F-16s top speed is about mach 2 clean, can you guess how fast it flies in combat configuration? I'm not sure, maybe mach 1.2?
An F-18's top speed is mach 1.8 clean, same question. Take a guess.

An F-35's top speed is mach 1.6, and with internal weapons it's top speed in combat configuration is exactly the same at mach 1.6. Are you really so dense you can't figure out how stupid you sound when you constantly focus on F-35's top speed? You don't have to answer that.

Odds of Manonthestreet actually responding to this point and explaining what magic universe he lives in where Russian planes all fly around with those large Russian AAMs and gas bags yet suffer no kinematic penalty like US planes do... ZERO.

 

[Manonthestreet]

And yet the buy is on old ...all your bs doesn't negate that. By time they get done replacing F-15s that'll be several yrs down the road ....order may as well be cancelled.

You continue to post things that scream "clueless" in this thread, it's free entertainment.

They are using F-15s and F-35s for different roles, they aren't going to replace F-15s with F-35s down the road. They would replace the F-16Is with F-35s.

You keep saying things I didnt say to try to make yourself look smart......nobody wants to address fact they aren't ordering the last batch as planned.....First nation to use it in "combat" or operationally and this would seem to point to them being underwhelmed with it. Too expesive to risk in ground support where stealth matters not.....and point defense fighter at best. Team it with flock of drones ya may have something.....

 

[Manonthestreet]

https://www.realcleardefense.com/ar...ir_superiority_they_need_the_f-35_113685.html

So let me get this straight, Mr. "I've got the most links" who measures his knowledge in ability to regurgitate is posting an article where a veteran pilot says:

"If we want to fight, win, and live to fly another day, we need the F-35"

Sounds like you've got a serious case of selective sourcing Mr. Links.

Great sensor platform but very limited weapons capability....perhaps limiting them to say twice your F117 would make more sense. To buy F35 bs you have to believe in the one missile one kill mantra...which never happens in real world.

They will carry six AAMs internally in AA role, which is actually quite comparable to other modern fighters. You really should read up on things before you post about them.

Once in a dogfight it has no way to exit until someone is dead or out of ammo because its too slow.I

And here he is again not understand the speed thing, so let's try the same question:

Article was posted where F-15 pilot says his F-15 (top speed clean mach 2.5) maxed out at mach 1.8 in combat load, because of increased drag.
An SU-35 has a clean top speed of mach 2.25, so using same function would probably be about mach 1.55 in combat configuration.
An F-16s top speed is about mach 2 clean, can you guess how fast it flies in combat configuration? I'm not sure, maybe mach 1.2?
An F-18's top speed is mach 1.8 clean, same question. Take a guess.

An F-35's top speed is mach 1.6, and with internal weapons it's top speed in combat configuration is exactly the same at mach 1.6. Are you really so dense you can't figure out how stupid you sound when you constantly focus on F-35's top speed? You don't have to answer that.

Odds of Manonthestreet actually responding to this point and explaining what magic universe he lives in where Russian planes all fly around with those large Russian AAMs and gas bags yet suffer no kinematic penalty like US planes do... ZERO.

Again you miss the point....why does such an article need to written at this juncture.....I would guess the Israelis have learned some unpleasant truth about it and shared those with US counterparts. We've produced around 300 of them and none have been used.....stuff like that would cause a thinking person to go...hhhmmmm eh.....but keep regurgitating corp line and dont be surprised when its learned we have a flying version of LCS ie totally worthless except for menial tasks

 

[DrainBamage]

You keep saying things I didnt say to try to make yourself look smart

Come on dude, nobody needs to make any effort to look smart when responding to "All combat loaded aircraft fly at their listed max speed" guy who brags he posts the most links.

......nobody wants to address fact they aren't ordering the last batch as planned.....First nation to use it in "combat" or operationally and this would seem to point to them being underwhelmed with it.

Okay let's look at your conclusion that their combat experience with F-35 was the reason they are buying more F-15s.

From May 17: Israel to link fleet upgrade with follow-on F-15I buy
Israel has proposed a deal to purchase additional Boeing F-15s, in a package that would also include upgrading the Israeli air force's existing I-model examples of the strike aircraft. Worth almost $4 billion, the potential purchase would include 25 twin-engined F-15Is in an advanced configuration. The new version's airframe would have an extended lifespan and enhanced features including a large-area cockpit display. The purchase of additional F-15s has recently gained priority for the Israeli air force's high command over ordering aircraft for a third squadron of Lockheed Martin F-35Is. The rationale for this decision is that while the F-35's stealth features are essential at the start of a conflict, the type will need be flown during later combat sorties in conjunction with assets capable of carrying a heavier weapons load.



They are going with a F-35/F-15 mix because they need a platform that can haul 5,000lb class weapons really far, hello Iran. If this news was coming out in May 17 they were making the analysis and proposal for F-15s well before F-35 was used in combat, so you have a serious logic fail.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-israelis-want-larger-more-modern-f-15-fleet
The decision to embark on this upgrade program was made two years ago, in spite of the nation’s planned purchase of the Lockheed Martin F-35. An Israeli source says the air force is looking as far ahead as 40 years. “The F-15 has a lot of advantages. It can be equipped with Israeli-developed systems, an upgrade that can be performed on the F-35 to a clear limit,” says the source. Israel regards its F-15 fleet to be the backbone of its attacking capability. As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s..

Too expesive to risk in ground support where stealth matters not.

Yet another logic fail, an F-35A costs significantly less than a brand new F-15I.

 

[DrainBamage]

We've produced around 300 of them and none have been used.....stuff like that would cause a thinking person to go...hhhmmmm eh

F-22 entered service in 2005, and was "used" in 12 years later. F-35 was declared combat ready two years ago.

A thinking man would have considered that before posting something so stupid.

*crickets*

Boy that sure was tough predicting that Manonthestreet would ignore for at least the 5th time the reason his constant harping about F-35 top speed makes no sense.

This time was beautiful because you actually responded to the post, just put the blinders on for the part that dumps you in the toilet.

Chirp... chirp..