F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Manonthestreet]

We've produced around 300 of them and none have been used.....stuff like that would cause a thinking person to go...hhhmmmm eh

F-22 entered service in 2005, and was "used" in 12 years later. F-35 was declared combat ready two years ago.

A thinking man would have considered that before posting something so stupid.

*crickets*

Boy that sure was tough predicting that Manonthestreet would ignore for at least the 5th time the reason his constant harping about F-35 top speed makes no sense.

This time was beautiful because you actually responded to the post, just put the blinders on for the part that dumps you in the toilet.

Chirp... chirp..

Propaganda.....none of first three runs can be used in combat,,,only version 4 has complete computer package.....
Hundreds of F-35s may now never be made combat-ready due to budget constraints | SOFREP

 

[Manonthestreet]

You keep saying things I didnt say to try to make yourself look smart

Come on dude, nobody needs to make any effort to look smart when responding to "All combat loaded aircraft fly at their listed max speed" guy who brags he posts the most links.

......nobody wants to address fact they aren't ordering the last batch as planned.....First nation to use it in "combat" or operationally and this would seem to point to them being underwhelmed with it.

Okay let's look at your conclusion that their combat experience with F-35 was the reason they are buying more F-15s.

From May 17: Israel to link fleet upgrade with follow-on F-15I buy
Israel has proposed a deal to purchase additional Boeing F-15s, in a package that would also include upgrading the Israeli air force's existing I-model examples of the strike aircraft. Worth almost $4 billion, the potential purchase would include 25 twin-engined F-15Is in an advanced configuration. The new version's airframe would have an extended lifespan and enhanced features including a large-area cockpit display. The purchase of additional F-15s has recently gained priority for the Israeli air force's high command over ordering aircraft for a third squadron of Lockheed Martin F-35Is. The rationale for this decision is that while the F-35's stealth features are essential at the start of a conflict, the type will need be flown during later combat sorties in conjunction with assets capable of carrying a heavier weapons load.



They are going with a F-35/F-15 mix because they need a platform that can haul 5,000lb class weapons really far, hello Iran. If this news was coming out in May 17 they were making the analysis and proposal for F-15s well before F-35 was used in combat, so you have a serious logic fail.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-israelis-want-larger-more-modern-f-15-fleet
The decision to embark on this upgrade program was made two years ago, in spite of the nation’s planned purchase of the Lockheed Martin F-35. An Israeli source says the air force is looking as far ahead as 40 years. “The F-15 has a lot of advantages. It can be equipped with Israeli-developed systems, an upgrade that can be performed on the F-35 to a clear limit,” says the source. Israel regards its F-15 fleet to be the backbone of its attacking capability. As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s..

Too expesive to risk in ground support where stealth matters not.

Yet another logic fail, an F-35A costs significantly less than a brand new F-15I.

Like I said by time those F-15 are delivered it will be yrs down the road...….virtual cancellation without saying cancelled

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Aaaaaaand Israel suspends its last batch of 25 Brewster Buffalos for Super Eagles.....

You seem to step in it all the time. Israel has a large number of birds, both 16s and 15s from the 70s that badly need replacement in order to stay on top in the Middle East. They aren't buying new F-16s. They are buying new F-15Is that can do the job of both the 16 and the 15. It's not about money. If it were, they would also be buying the newest upgraded F-16 as well. They aren't slowing down on their F-35A purchases though. They are looking for buyers for the F-16C/Ds and use that money to buy new F-15Is. There are a number of countries standing in line to purchase those used F-16s. What comes out of it is Israel as one of the most sophisticated Air Forces in the World second to none. Even more than the US maybe except for numbers and the F-22. Not a bad plan.

Your buddies in Iran should be crapping their baggy pants right about now.

Better check bottom of your shoe.....last 25 on hold......

You left out the real facts on this one. The Israelis are looking at replacing their old 1970 series F-15 and 16 birds that are a bit tired. Like the US, they have early birds that need replacement. What they are thinking of doing is selling off the old F-16C/D models, using that money to help buy new F-15I 2040C models and still by 25 F-35As. Now, that makes a lot of sense. Using the F-35A and the F-15 together is an unbeatable matchup. This way, they can have a F-35A flying forward while a F-15 2040C flies lag with it's 16 missiles ready to feed the F-35 as it identifies hostiles. Plus, the F-15 can be loaded with a huge amount of standoff ground attack weapons for the same purpose. The F-15 2040C is about the only Fighter with a really decent payload that will have the range of the Israeli F-35A with it's conformal fuel tanks. This means it can easily operate anywhere over Iran it wishes to operate at. The F-15 2040C is built off the F-15SE with all the extra bells and whistles. It's a hard combo to go up against.

Once again, boyunderthetarmac, you lose again.

And yet the buy is on old ...all your bs doesn't negate that. By time they get done replacing F-15s that'll be several yrs down the road ....order may as well be cancelled. Big article in real clear defense today arguing against cancelling US F35 buy ....very curious .....wouldn't ya say ...post it later

Yet, the F-35 continues to be purchased. You just can't win no matter what, can you.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You got it, I just saw an article where an F-15 pilot was discussing the top speeds:

Cold War Eagle Driver: F-15 pilot reveals all

“Dirty, which is to say in normal training or combat configuration, I doubt anyone has gotten an Eagle much over Mach 1.8 in level flight.”

So all these posts MoronOnTheStreet has made lamenting the F-35 as being too slow to be effective, but it's top speed in a combat configuration of mach 1.6 is only barely slower than a combat configured F-15, and surely faster than combat loaded F-16 or F-18. MoronOnTheStreet thinks puddle deep about things, he sees the top speed of a stripped down air show fighter and figures that is a useful practical barometer.

To take that farther, mach 1.6 is the minimum program requirement for F-35 speed, which means an F-35C can fly at mach 1.6. Given that a F-35A is more aerodynamically efficient and weights 5,500 pounds less than an F-35C who really thinks an F-35A can only fly mach 1.6?

It's troubling how we all use "mach" as a measure of speed, even though it is, it is every misleading. At sea level Mach 1.8 is 1360 mph, at 30,000 feet is only 1220. A big difference. Of course all speeds I used are approximate.

To add, it's a real bear to even run Mach at near sea level. The air is thick, the drag is high and the leading edges heat up quick. Let me paint a Fictitious Scenario that never happened (wink, wink)

You need to get close up pictures of a military installation on the Kamchatka Peninsula but your sat is out of place. The SR-71 is not available. What do you do. You fly in a RC-135 Camera version with the new engines TDY into Elmendorf with replacement engines. You speed is slightly less than 600 mph advertised. But it can be done as sealevel. But that's the advertised top speed. So you come in low and fast. You start out low and slow, conserving fuel. You are trying to be as quiet as possible at this point.

Meanwhile, you have already launched an EC-130 that is on station just outside of international waters. They are tracking it. It appears to be flying from Fairbanks to Japan much like a Cargo Plane. No real threat.

As you approach with your RC, you turn on the speed. you hit it up to right around 500 mph and will be over your target in a matter of minutes, you slow down, hit the cameras, turn the bird back over the water and hit the water injection. For the next 15 minutes, you blow black smoke out your tail pipes and keep it below 200 feet off the caps.

The enemy picked you up right after you crossed the 12 mile line coming in. They launched their alert birds. Mig-31s. These things are going to be hitting Mach 2 in a matter of a few minutes. They are going to be passing 20K feet about the time you are making your turn back back towards the water after bagging the pics. The EC-130 goes to work. The enemy now has trouble with communications and radar. So do you but who really cares at this point. The EC can't stay on station but only a couple of minutes. Your RC is now hitting his top speed of 580 mph. The Mig can't really use his radar missiles. You drop your RC down to 50 feet above the caps which disables any long ranged heat seekers. Now, the Mig has to get up close, low and personal. The RC is burning gas fast but he is loaded with it so it's not a concern since he's also a full blown tanker. The Mig now has drop down low and he runs into a real problem. He has to slow down considerably. He is running into a heat problem and he is cobbling fuel like a bandit. The Tanker goes well past his 580mph top speed and enters into transonic at Mach .95. He is buffeting and shaking all over the place. This is an area he was never designed to fly at. In fact, it's not an area ANY aircraft is designed to fly at. The Mig has to overtake him and has to expend a lot of gas and keep at full AB to do it at sea level. He has about 15 minutes of total flight time to do it from the time he launched. That means he has only about 2 minutes of real pursuit time. He is pursuing at Mach 1.2. He fires his heat seakers but they can't lock on. He gets one short burst from his guns but he can't do enough damage to bring the tanker down. The Mig's hail mary fails. The RC makes it out barely. The EC has already left. And the Growlers are waiting to make sure nothing else can get close to the RC later on.

The RC slows down. He's now down to 3 engines and only able to make about 350 mph. He lands back at Elmendorf. All 4 engines are smoked, the entire airframe has been shaken to pieces. There are bits and pieces that are just plain missing. After a full engine swap, the bird is scheduled for a full Depot overhaul. But the pictures are good. Mission accomplished.

Just remember, this never happened. The names of the Aircraft have been changed to protect the Guilty. But at sea level, even a Cargo Plane has a chance of outrunning a fighter. It just might get down to who has the most gas. And if you fighter is loaded to the gills and has trouble maintaining over Mach 1, he can't really fly at subsonic. He will have to go below it and the Tanker type will be on equal footing if he is willing to sacrifice and engine. But he has 4 and can afford it. Your fighter has 2 and can't afford it. Sea Level makes everything pretty much equal at this point.

Why would the fighter go down low to where he has to fight air density instead of staying high, advancing ahead of the target, and then split essing to drop down on the target from above? No muss, no fuss. Come in on a flank attack where the radar cross section is HUGE and the AA-9, even though a shit missile, shouldn't have a problem acquiring the target. And if the missiles don't work (I agree the AA-11 has a very remote chance of acquiring) then you have 260 rounds of 23mm that you can rake the '135 with from stem to stern. Yes, it may survive that, but it's doubtful.

For your hit and run camera mission to work i would want to see a couple of F-15s as escort.

It's an EC and RC game. You know he's out there somewhere. But it's going to require visual to do it. Flying high won't cut it. You lost the GAC that the Russians rely on so heavily. This is actually an old scenario from the 80s that was presented. The only fighter that had any chance of success of intercepting was the Mig-25. All others didn't have the speed from ground launch. Plus, the Mig-25 was the only Soviet Fighter with the possible radar to pull it off. I would say that there was as much a chance of failure as there was as of success.

Flying high gives you the best chance to visually spot the aircraft. Low and fast and you are viewing a very small swath of ocean. High and low speed and you get to scan far more ocean for your target. You already have a target area, you simply do a time/distance eventual homeplate calculation, and you KNOW the target has to be along a certain vector. All you have to do is intercept it. The EC-130 actually helps the MiG because you automatically know the target MUST be within the region of coverage.

That's why if you don't have a MiGcap, you are in deep trouble.

The original model had a Recce RC-135 in the mix. It only had to switch on for a few minutes and then exit. Never coming outside international waters. The Recces played havoc with the Soviets in the early 70s. You might see them but you also might miss something else like a camera ship or a bomber or two.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

We've produced around 300 of them and none have been used.....stuff like that would cause a thinking person to go...hhhmmmm eh

F-22 entered service in 2005, and was "used" in 12 years later. F-35 was declared combat ready two years ago.

A thinking man would have considered that before posting something so stupid.

*crickets*

Boy that sure was tough predicting that Manonthestreet would ignore for at least the 5th time the reason his constant harping about F-35 top speed makes no sense.

This time was beautiful because you actually responded to the post, just put the blinders on for the part that dumps you in the toilet.

Chirp... chirp..

Propaganda.....none of first three runs can be used in combat,,,only version 4 has complete computer package.....
Hundreds of F-35s may now never be made combat-ready due to budget constraints | SOFREP

You mean the first 103 which were all test birds. They are still being used as either test birds or parts. Certainly not "Hundreds". Just stop making shit up.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You keep saying things I didnt say to try to make yourself look smart

Come on dude, nobody needs to make any effort to look smart when responding to "All combat loaded aircraft fly at their listed max speed" guy who brags he posts the most links.

......nobody wants to address fact they aren't ordering the last batch as planned.....First nation to use it in "combat" or operationally and this would seem to point to them being underwhelmed with it.

Okay let's look at your conclusion that their combat experience with F-35 was the reason they are buying more F-15s.

From May 17: Israel to link fleet upgrade with follow-on F-15I buy
Israel has proposed a deal to purchase additional Boeing F-15s, in a package that would also include upgrading the Israeli air force's existing I-model examples of the strike aircraft. Worth almost $4 billion, the potential purchase would include 25 twin-engined F-15Is in an advanced configuration. The new version's airframe would have an extended lifespan and enhanced features including a large-area cockpit display. The purchase of additional F-15s has recently gained priority for the Israeli air force's high command over ordering aircraft for a third squadron of Lockheed Martin F-35Is. The rationale for this decision is that while the F-35's stealth features are essential at the start of a conflict, the type will need be flown during later combat sorties in conjunction with assets capable of carrying a heavier weapons load.



They are going with a F-35/F-15 mix because they need a platform that can haul 5,000lb class weapons really far, hello Iran. If this news was coming out in May 17 they were making the analysis and proposal for F-15s well before F-35 was used in combat, so you have a serious logic fail.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-israelis-want-larger-more-modern-f-15-fleet
The decision to embark on this upgrade program was made two years ago, in spite of the nation’s planned purchase of the Lockheed Martin F-35. An Israeli source says the air force is looking as far ahead as 40 years. “The F-15 has a lot of advantages. It can be equipped with Israeli-developed systems, an upgrade that can be performed on the F-35 to a clear limit,” says the source. Israel regards its F-15 fleet to be the backbone of its attacking capability. As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s..

Too expesive to risk in ground support where stealth matters not.

Yet another logic fail, an F-35A costs significantly less than a brand new F-15I.

Like I said by time those F-15 are delivered it will be yrs down the road...….virtual cancellation without saying cancelled

Years, as in a couple of years. War is a long plan when spending billions of dollars. Otherwise, anyone could do it.

 

[DrainBamage]

Like I said by time those F-15 are delivered it will be yrs down the road...….virtual cancellation without saying cancelled

Like I tried to explain but you can't wrap your head around, there is no "this or that" issue but in your own little pea brain. F-15 complements F-35, they have different capabilities. Ordering one doesn't indicate canceling the other.

Oh yeah, we all notice that you continue to go crickets chirping on addressing the "F-35 to slow" logic fail. That's embarrassing for you ain't it?

 

[DrainBamage]

Propaganda.....none of first three runs can be used in combat,,,only version 4 has complete computer package.....
Hundreds of F-35s may now never be made combat-ready due to budget constraints | SOFREP

Claiming this doesn't help your case in implying since USA hasn't used them they are no good. You're basically arguing against yourself.

So... you never answered Mr. "I've got the most links"... what about the F-22? How long did they take to use that?

Oh yeah, we all notice that you continue to go crickets chirping on addressing the "F-35 to slow" logic fail. That's embarrassing for you ain't it?

 

[DrainBamage]

Yet, the F-35 continues to be purchased. You just can't win no matter what, can you.

Every time he puts his toe in this thread he gets made a fool of by contradicting himself and proving himself unable to respond to anything counter to his narrative. It's pretty damn funny.

 

[DrainBamage]

Su 35 su 30 fly higher, faster, farther than f-35 carry more missles have better jamming capability against missles fired at them......really is no contest

Pop quiz... what is the max speed and altitude of an SU-30/35 in combat configuration, specifically while carrying those big Russian "more missiles" that you're talking about?

You have no idea do you? We know this because you think Russian jets fly in Manonthestreet's magic fantasy land where the combat configured top speed and max altitude is exactly the same as a clean bird with hardly any fuel that would achieve that max speed. F-15 pilot says he can't get past mach 1.8 (versus F-15 stated max mach 2.5) so how do you translate that into SU-30/35 performance?

To take your foolishness farther, did you know that the overwhelming majority of combat kills in the modern era have been at transonic speed and medium (30kish) altitude? Once you know that (look it up if you don't believe me) why do you think superior max altitude and speed are a panacea in regards to measuring combat effectiveness?

Manonthestreet = *crickets* chirp chirp....

 

[DrainBamage]

very limited weapons capability....perhaps limiting them to say twice your F117 would make more sense. To buy F35 bs you have to believe in the one missile one kill mantra...which never happens in real world.

Let's have more fun with this ignorance. F-35 currently can carry 4 AAMs internally, and will carry 6 AAMs internally with scheduled block 4 upgrade.

So when you criticize it by saying one must believe a one missile one kill mantra, do you really think that makes sense given common air-to-air loadouts of most combat aircraft? You don't have to answer that, and really we know you won't since you're really good at saying something stupid but not usually interested in standing up for what you post.


Let's count the missiles on an F-16... hey it's four! According to Manonthestreet this plane is fatally flawed since one must believe in one missile one kill mantra.

Dang it someone tell these planes that Manonthestreet says it doesn't make sense to be intercepting that Bear with only those missiles.

Yikes 4 AAMs for this F-18, clearly he's not as smart as Manonthestreet since air combat is ineffective with 4 missiles.

Even the Russians are running afoul of Manonthestreet's wisdom

Bottom line = 6 AAMs is plenty for most air-to-air combat loads, and if they are running offensive counter-air they could always use a combination of stealthy F-35s carrying internally and missile trucks carrying 14 AIM-120Ds by using the wing pylons.

 

[Suasponte]

Super duck

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Super duck

As compare to what?

 

[DrainBamage]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

Hi! Here we are 18 months later.

F-35 inventory soars in new Pentagon spending bill

"Beyond the 77 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters authorized by the 2019 defense policy bill, congressional appropriators are adding another 16 for a total of 93"

Sure sounds like the opposite of the program death spiral you keep on predicting.

 

[DrainBamage]

We've produced around 300 of them and none have been used.....stuff like that would cause a thinking person to go...hhhmmmm eh

by the time this thing gets combat qualled

Not four before it hits combat

Gee didnt they declare it combat rdy yet they cant even send on a gravy run against isis

USMC just used F-35B for air strikes in Afghanistan, just three years after IOC. To put that in perspective F-22 which I've seen posts in this forum saying "at least it's seen combat" was IOC in 2005 and flew it's first combat mission in 2014.

It's a new capability for USMC's amphibs, AV-8B has a combat radius of only 300 miles with drop tanks which would not have allowed them to perform air strikes Afghanistan from Essex without refueling, but F-35B combat radius is slightly over 500 miles on internal fuel. USMC can now use aircraft from amphibs to strike farther, strike faster, and perform missions like air superiority, SEAD/DEAD, precision bombing and ISR in heavily contested airspace, electronic attack, etc. that they couldn't do before.

 

[DrainBamage]

Love the F-22...it works and has 15-1 kill ratio on f-15 instead of losing everytime to f-16

You know what's hilarious about this statement? That 15-1 kill ratio was in exercises like Red Flag, since F-22 has never seen air combat.

Yet what happened when F-35 put up similarly gaudy 20-1 kill ratio numbers in exercises? You dismiss it as propaganda, despite pilots from various services and various countries saying it outright dominates.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

The F-4 was adequate for its time, but its exhaust was it's main downfall. No one wants to fly a combat aircraft with a big black line leading to it.

The F-4 was a serious contender all the way up till it was retired. In the hands of a capable pilot it could match nearly aircraft out there. I watched one wax TWO F-18s in a fight over Owens Valley back in the day.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The F-4 was adequate for its time, but its exhaust was it's main downfall. No one wants to fly a combat aircraft with a big black line leading to it.

The F-4 was a serious contender all the way up till it was retired. In the hands of a capable pilot it could match nearly aircraft out there. I watched one wax TWO F-18s in a fight over Owens Valley back in the day.

View attachment 218927 View attachment 218928

The later upgrades to the F-4 got rid of the smoking trails it was famous for. Plus, the slatted E made it into a great turn and burn fighter. Until the F-15 was ironed out, there really wasn't anything out there as good as the F-4 as a multirole fighter or an interceptor. Thinkof this, it took 2 Fighters to take over the jobs that the F-4 was doing. That says loads just how good the F-4 was in the 70s. But by 1980, the F-15 and the F-16 came into their own and the F-4s day was done. I was heartbroken when they turned them into Target Drones. Not the way for such a proud bird to go out.

Now, it's the F-16s day that will end sooner than later. When they get the number of F-35s in service, I suspect that the F-16s will meet the same fate. The F-15 will make it a bit longer as there is nothing out there in enough numbers to replace them as of this time. But it's going to happen. We just don't know what that will be yet.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

The F-4 was adequate for its time, but its exhaust was it's main downfall. No one wants to fly a combat aircraft with a big black line leading to it.

The F-4 was a serious contender all the way up till it was retired. In the hands of a capable pilot it could match nearly aircraft out there. I watched one wax TWO F-18s in a fight over Owens Valley back in the day.

View attachment 218927 View attachment 218928

The later upgrades to the F-4 got rid of the smoking trails it was famous for. Plus, the slatted E made it into a great turn and burn fighter. Until the F-15 was ironed out, there really wasn't anything out there as good as the F-4 as a multirole fighter or an interceptor. Thinkof this, it took 2 Fighters to take over the jobs that the F-4 was doing. That says loads just how good the F-4 was in the 70s. But by 1980, the F-15 and the F-16 came into their own and the F-4s day was done. I was heartbroken when they turned them into Target Drones. Not the way for such a proud bird to go out.

Now, it's the F-16s day that will end sooner than later. When they get the number of F-35s in service, I suspect that the F-16s will meet the same fate. The F-15 will make it a bit longer as there is nothing out there in enough numbers to replace them as of this time. But it's going to happen. We just don't know what that will be yet.

I thought the venerable F-4 made it into the 1990s in the Wild Weasel role?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The F-4 was adequate for its time, but its exhaust was it's main downfall. No one wants to fly a combat aircraft with a big black line leading to it.

The F-4 was a serious contender all the way up till it was retired. In the hands of a capable pilot it could match nearly aircraft out there. I watched one wax TWO F-18s in a fight over Owens Valley back in the day.

View attachment 218927 View attachment 218928

The later upgrades to the F-4 got rid of the smoking trails it was famous for. Plus, the slatted E made it into a great turn and burn fighter. Until the F-15 was ironed out, there really wasn't anything out there as good as the F-4 as a multirole fighter or an interceptor. Thinkof this, it took 2 Fighters to take over the jobs that the F-4 was doing. That says loads just how good the F-4 was in the 70s. But by 1980, the F-15 and the F-16 came into their own and the F-4s day was done. I was heartbroken when they turned them into Target Drones. Not the way for such a proud bird to go out.

Now, it's the F-16s day that will end sooner than later. When they get the number of F-35s in service, I suspect that the F-16s will meet the same fate. The F-15 will make it a bit longer as there is nothing out there in enough numbers to replace them as of this time. But it's going to happen. We just don't know what that will be yet.

I thought the venerable F-4 made it into the 1990s in the Wild Weasel role?

The F-4G was introduced in the 70s replacing the Raven. It was still being used into the early 90s but was being slowly replaced by the F-16 version starting in the 80s.