F-35 Fail

Manonthestreet

Diamond Member
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
41,067
Reaction score
33,129
Points
3,645
Co-Designer of F-16.

[ame=http://youtu.be/mxDSiwqM2nw]AAA THE F-35 IS A LEMON PIERRE SPREY (RUNAWAY FIGHTER) FIFTH ESTATE EXTENDED INTERVW - YouTube[/ame]

Dont know If I agree with ever contention but he nails F-35
 
"It shows you how long dumb ideas persist".

I recently spoke with a pilot whose career began as an F-4 pilot over Vietnam and concluded with missions in an F-117 in 1990 Iraq. He spoke favorably of the F35 but pointed out that individual systems testing is sorely lacking. They pile on the bling and expect it all to perform cohesively which of course it doesn't.
 
Funny how he leaves out the F-22 which IS a fantastic aircraft. I do agree though, the F-35 is a scam.
 
Funny how he leaves out the F-22 which IS a fantastic aircraft. I do agree though, the F-35 is a scam.

The F-22 is a huge disaster. It cant fly in the rain, can't communicate with other aircraft, the wing supports break, skin fails, canopy fails, is not stealth, not reliable, has never been able to fly in combat & likely never will, has a short life span, can't drop bombs, most parts are hand-fitted causing huge fits in maintenance because they are not interchangeable, cost a fortune to operate & even more the older it gets.

The Lockheed Martin F-22, requires more than 34 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $49,808, far higher figure than the warplane it replaces.

"It is a disgrace that you can fly the plane only 1.7 hours before it gets a critical failure" that jeopardizes success of the aircraft's mission, said a Defense Department official. Then if the plane flies that long, it needs at least 58 hours of maintenance & $85,000 to be able to fly again for up to 1.7 hours.

The aircraft's radar-absorbing metallic skin is the principal cause of its maintenance troubles, with unexpected shortcomings -- such as vulnerability to rain and other abrasion. While most aircraft fleets become easier and less costly to repair as they mature, key maintenance trends for the F-22 have been negative in recent years. The F-22 has never been flown over Iraq, Afghanistan or in any combat mission.

Its troubles have been detailed in dozens of Government Accountability Office reports and Pentagon audits. But Pierre Sprey, a key designer in the 1970s and 1980s of the F-16 and A-10 warplanes, said that from the beginning, the Air Force designed it to be "too big to fail, that is, to be cancellation-proof."

Lockheed farmed out more than 1,000 subcontracts to vendors in more than 40 states, and Sprey -- now a prominent critic of the plane -- said that by the time skeptics "could point out the failed tests, the combat flaws, and the exploding costs, most congressmen were already defending their subcontractors' " revenues.

John Hamre, the Pentagon's comptroller from 1993 to 1997, says the department approved the plane with a budget it knew was too low because projecting the real costs would have been politically unpalatable on Capitol Hill.

"We knew that the F-22 was going to cost more than the Air Force thought it was going to cost and we budgeted the lower number, and I was there," Hamre told the Senate Armed Services Committee in April. "I'm not proud of it," Hamre added in a recent interview.

When limited production began in 2001, the plane was "substantially behind its plan to achieve reliability goals," the GAO said in a report the following year. Structural problems that turned up in subsequent testing forced retrofits to the frame and changes in the fuel flow. Computer flaws, combined with defective software diagnostics, forced the frequent retesting of millions of lines of code, said two Defense officials with access to internal reports.

"When I got into this thing . . . I could not believe the compromises" made by Lockheed to meet the Air Force's request for quick results, said Olsen, who had a top-secret clearance. "I suggested we go to the Air Force and tell them we had some difficulties . . . and they would not do that. I was squashed. I knew from the get-go that this material was bad, that this correcting it in the field was never going to work."

In late 2005, Boeing learned of defects in titanium booms connecting the wings to the plane, which the company, in a subsequent lawsuit against its supplier, said posed the risk of "catastrophic loss of the aircraft." But rather than shut down the production line -- an act that would have incurred large Air Force penalties -- Boeing reached an accord with the Air Force to resolve the problem through increased inspections over the life of the fleet, with expenses to be mostly paid by the Air Force.

Sprey said engineers who worked on it told him that because of Lockheed's use of hundreds of subcontractors, quality control was so poor that workers had to create a "shim line" at the Georgia plant where they retooled badly designed or poorly manufactured components. "Each plane wound up with all these hand-fitted parts that caused huge fits in maintenance," he said. "They were not interchangeable."

"It flunked on suitability measures -- availability, reliability, and maintenance," said Christie about the first of those tests. "There was no consequence. It did not faze anybody who was in the decision loop" for approving the plane's full production. This outcome was hardly unique, Christie adds. During his tenure in the job from 2001 to 2005, "16 or 17 major weapons systems flunked" during initial operational tests, and "not one was stopped as a result."

"I don't accept that this is still early in the program," Christie said, explaining that he does not recall a plane with such a low capability to fulfill its mission due to maintenance problems at this point in its tenure as the F-22. The Pentagon said 64 percent of the fleet is currently "mission capable." After four years of rigorous testing and operations, "the trends are not good," he added.

When Gates decided this spring to spend $785 million on four more planes and then end production of the F-22, he also kept alive an $8 billion improvement effort. It will, among other things, give F-22 pilots the ability to communicate with other types of warplanes; it currently is the only such warplane to lack that capability.
 
Last edited:
Lots of high paying jobs created by that fiasco.
 
I wonder who on this thread thinks they're technically savvy enough to know the difference between failure and success here?

Presented an expert opinion.......you have anything to the contrary besides spokesperson for the company?

Speed, altitude, and turn ratio don't even match planes that have been in production for decades.
 
Funny how he leaves out the F-22 which IS a fantastic aircraft. I do agree though, the F-35 is a scam.

The F-22 is a huge disaster. It cant fly in the rain, can't communicate with other aircraft, the wing supports break, skin fails, canopy fails, is not stealth, not reliable, has never been able to fly in combat & likely never will, has a short life span, can't drop bombs, most parts are hand-fitted causing huge fits in maintenance because they are not interchangeable, cost a fortune to operate & even more the older it gets.

The Lockheed Martin F-22, requires more than 34 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $49,808, far higher figure than the warplane it replaces.

"It is a disgrace that you can fly the plane only 1.7 hours before it gets a critical failure" that jeopardizes success of the aircraft's mission, said a Defense Department official. Then if the plane flies that long, it needs at least 58 hours of maintenance & $85,000 to be able to fly again for up to 1.7 hours.

The aircraft's radar-absorbing metallic skin is the principal cause of its maintenance troubles, with unexpected shortcomings -- such as vulnerability to rain and other abrasion. While most aircraft fleets become easier and less costly to repair as they mature, key maintenance trends for the F-22 have been negative in recent years. The F-22 has never been flown over Iraq, Afghanistan or in any combat mission.

Its troubles have been detailed in dozens of Government Accountability Office reports and Pentagon audits. But Pierre Sprey, a key designer in the 1970s and 1980s of the F-16 and A-10 warplanes, said that from the beginning, the Air Force designed it to be "too big to fail, that is, to be cancellation-proof."

Lockheed farmed out more than 1,000 subcontracts to vendors in more than 40 states, and Sprey -- now a prominent critic of the plane -- said that by the time skeptics "could point out the failed tests, the combat flaws, and the exploding costs, most congressmen were already defending their subcontractors' " revenues.

John Hamre, the Pentagon's comptroller from 1993 to 1997, says the department approved the plane with a budget it knew was too low because projecting the real costs would have been politically unpalatable on Capitol Hill.

"We knew that the F-22 was going to cost more than the Air Force thought it was going to cost and we budgeted the lower number, and I was there," Hamre told the Senate Armed Services Committee in April. "I'm not proud of it," Hamre added in a recent interview.

When limited production began in 2001, the plane was "substantially behind its plan to achieve reliability goals," the GAO said in a report the following year. Structural problems that turned up in subsequent testing forced retrofits to the frame and changes in the fuel flow. Computer flaws, combined with defective software diagnostics, forced the frequent retesting of millions of lines of code, said two Defense officials with access to internal reports.

"When I got into this thing . . . I could not believe the compromises" made by Lockheed to meet the Air Force's request for quick results, said Olsen, who had a top-secret clearance. "I suggested we go to the Air Force and tell them we had some difficulties . . . and they would not do that. I was squashed. I knew from the get-go that this material was bad, that this correcting it in the field was never going to work."

In late 2005, Boeing learned of defects in titanium booms connecting the wings to the plane, which the company, in a subsequent lawsuit against its supplier, said posed the risk of "catastrophic loss of the aircraft." But rather than shut down the production line -- an act that would have incurred large Air Force penalties -- Boeing reached an accord with the Air Force to resolve the problem through increased inspections over the life of the fleet, with expenses to be mostly paid by the Air Force.

Sprey said engineers who worked on it told him that because of Lockheed's use of hundreds of subcontractors, quality control was so poor that workers had to create a "shim line" at the Georgia plant where they retooled badly designed or poorly manufactured components. "Each plane wound up with all these hand-fitted parts that caused huge fits in maintenance," he said. "They were not interchangeable."

"It flunked on suitability measures -- availability, reliability, and maintenance," said Christie about the first of those tests. "There was no consequence. It did not faze anybody who was in the decision loop" for approving the plane's full production. This outcome was hardly unique, Christie adds. During his tenure in the job from 2001 to 2005, "16 or 17 major weapons systems flunked" during initial operational tests, and "not one was stopped as a result."

"I don't accept that this is still early in the program," Christie said, explaining that he does not recall a plane with such a low capability to fulfill its mission due to maintenance problems at this point in its tenure as the F-22. The Pentagon said 64 percent of the fleet is currently "mission capable." After four years of rigorous testing and operations, "the trends are not good," he added.

When Gates decided this spring to spend $785 million on four more planes and then end production of the F-22, he also kept alive an $8 billion improvement effort. It will, among other things, give F-22 pilots the ability to communicate with other types of warplanes; it currently is the only such warplane to lack that capability.






Well, I have seen it fly in the rain in Hawaii. The CO poisoning the pilots was, and is, a major concern and why they haven't fully rectified that issue I have no idea. However, virtually every major aircraft program has hiccups. The B-17 had weaknesses that didn't become apparent till it was used in combat, likewise virtually every other bomber that was used to win WWII.

All of our Cold War fighters had teething problems. It's a fantasy to think you're going to come up with something a generation above all others and not have problems. That's the nature of the aerospace world.

The F-22 though, when it works, is a world beater. We have seen that. Now the only job is to get it working as close to 100% of the time as possible.
 
Funny how he leaves out the F-22 which IS a fantastic aircraft. I do agree though, the F-35 is a scam.

The F-22 is a huge disaster. It cant fly in the rain, can't communicate with other aircraft, the wing supports break, skin fails, canopy fails, is not stealth, not reliable, has never been able to fly in combat & likely never will, has a short life span, can't drop bombs, most parts are hand-fitted causing huge fits in maintenance because they are not interchangeable, cost a fortune to operate & even more the older it gets.

The Lockheed Martin F-22, requires more than 34 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $49,808, far higher figure than the warplane it replaces.

"It is a disgrace that you can fly the plane only 1.7 hours before it gets a critical failure" that jeopardizes success of the aircraft's mission, said a Defense Department official. Then if the plane flies that long, it needs at least 58 hours of maintenance & $85,000 to be able to fly again for up to 1.7 hours.

The aircraft's radar-absorbing metallic skin is the principal cause of its maintenance troubles, with unexpected shortcomings -- such as vulnerability to rain and other abrasion. While most aircraft fleets become easier and less costly to repair as they mature, key maintenance trends for the F-22 have been negative in recent years. The F-22 has never been flown over Iraq, Afghanistan or in any combat mission.

Its troubles have been detailed in dozens of Government Accountability Office reports and Pentagon audits. But Pierre Sprey, a key designer in the 1970s and 1980s of the F-16 and A-10 warplanes, said that from the beginning, the Air Force designed it to be "too big to fail, that is, to be cancellation-proof."

Lockheed farmed out more than 1,000 subcontracts to vendors in more than 40 states, and Sprey -- now a prominent critic of the plane -- said that by the time skeptics "could point out the failed tests, the combat flaws, and the exploding costs, most congressmen were already defending their subcontractors' " revenues.

John Hamre, the Pentagon's comptroller from 1993 to 1997, says the department approved the plane with a budget it knew was too low because projecting the real costs would have been politically unpalatable on Capitol Hill.

"We knew that the F-22 was going to cost more than the Air Force thought it was going to cost and we budgeted the lower number, and I was there," Hamre told the Senate Armed Services Committee in April. "I'm not proud of it," Hamre added in a recent interview.

When limited production began in 2001, the plane was "substantially behind its plan to achieve reliability goals," the GAO said in a report the following year. Structural problems that turned up in subsequent testing forced retrofits to the frame and changes in the fuel flow. Computer flaws, combined with defective software diagnostics, forced the frequent retesting of millions of lines of code, said two Defense officials with access to internal reports.

"When I got into this thing . . . I could not believe the compromises" made by Lockheed to meet the Air Force's request for quick results, said Olsen, who had a top-secret clearance. "I suggested we go to the Air Force and tell them we had some difficulties . . . and they would not do that. I was squashed. I knew from the get-go that this material was bad, that this correcting it in the field was never going to work."

In late 2005, Boeing learned of defects in titanium booms connecting the wings to the plane, which the company, in a subsequent lawsuit against its supplier, said posed the risk of "catastrophic loss of the aircraft." But rather than shut down the production line -- an act that would have incurred large Air Force penalties -- Boeing reached an accord with the Air Force to resolve the problem through increased inspections over the life of the fleet, with expenses to be mostly paid by the Air Force.

Sprey said engineers who worked on it told him that because of Lockheed's use of hundreds of subcontractors, quality control was so poor that workers had to create a "shim line" at the Georgia plant where they retooled badly designed or poorly manufactured components. "Each plane wound up with all these hand-fitted parts that caused huge fits in maintenance," he said. "They were not interchangeable."

"It flunked on suitability measures -- availability, reliability, and maintenance," said Christie about the first of those tests. "There was no consequence. It did not faze anybody who was in the decision loop" for approving the plane's full production. This outcome was hardly unique, Christie adds. During his tenure in the job from 2001 to 2005, "16 or 17 major weapons systems flunked" during initial operational tests, and "not one was stopped as a result."

"I don't accept that this is still early in the program," Christie said, explaining that he does not recall a plane with such a low capability to fulfill its mission due to maintenance problems at this point in its tenure as the F-22. The Pentagon said 64 percent of the fleet is currently "mission capable." After four years of rigorous testing and operations, "the trends are not good," he added.

When Gates decided this spring to spend $785 million on four more planes and then end production of the F-22, he also kept alive an $8 billion improvement effort. It will, among other things, give F-22 pilots the ability to communicate with other types of warplanes; it currently is the only such warplane to lack that capability.

Well, I have seen it fly in the rain in Hawaii. The CO poisoning the pilots was, and is, a major concern and why they haven't fully rectified that issue I have no idea. However, virtually every major aircraft program has hiccups. The B-17 had weaknesses that didn't become apparent till it was used in combat, likewise virtually every other bomber that was used to win WWII.

All of our Cold War fighters had teething problems. It's a fantasy to think you're going to come up with something a generation above all others and not have problems. That's the nature of the aerospace world.

The F-22 though, when it works, is a world beater. We have seen that. Now the only job is to get it working as close to 100% of the time as possible.

These are not hiccups, they are disasters that have not been overcome in the over 40 years of development, testing, production & use of the F-22. These are problems that should have been fixed in development & prototype phase. Now taxpayers were swindled out of $80 billion for a fleet of junk that are to unreliable & nonfunctional be useful in combat.

You idiots ***** about ethanol, wind & solar that actually function & work. Then turn & defend the F-35 & F-22 taxpayer fleecing scams.
 
Last edited:
Don't see anyone defending the F-35 nor have I seen a democratic admin move to kill it.....why is that.....its called sabotage. Going to destroy all 3 air arms at once.
 
F-22 has an 18-1 kill ratio vs F-15 in training.
 
The F-22 is a huge disaster. It cant fly in the rain, can't communicate with other aircraft, the wing supports break, skin fails, canopy fails, is not stealth, not reliable, has never been able to fly in combat & likely never will, has a short life span, can't drop bombs, most parts are hand-fitted causing huge fits in maintenance because they are not interchangeable, cost a fortune to operate & even more the older it gets.

The Lockheed Martin F-22, requires more than 34 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $49,808, far higher figure than the warplane it replaces.

"It is a disgrace that you can fly the plane only 1.7 hours before it gets a critical failure" that jeopardizes success of the aircraft's mission, said a Defense Department official. Then if the plane flies that long, it needs at least 58 hours of maintenance & $85,000 to be able to fly again for up to 1.7 hours.

The aircraft's radar-absorbing metallic skin is the principal cause of its maintenance troubles, with unexpected shortcomings -- such as vulnerability to rain and other abrasion. While most aircraft fleets become easier and less costly to repair as they mature, key maintenance trends for the F-22 have been negative in recent years. The F-22 has never been flown over Iraq, Afghanistan or in any combat mission.

Its troubles have been detailed in dozens of Government Accountability Office reports and Pentagon audits. But Pierre Sprey, a key designer in the 1970s and 1980s of the F-16 and A-10 warplanes, said that from the beginning, the Air Force designed it to be "too big to fail, that is, to be cancellation-proof."

Lockheed farmed out more than 1,000 subcontracts to vendors in more than 40 states, and Sprey -- now a prominent critic of the plane -- said that by the time skeptics "could point out the failed tests, the combat flaws, and the exploding costs, most congressmen were already defending their subcontractors' " revenues.

John Hamre, the Pentagon's comptroller from 1993 to 1997, says the department approved the plane with a budget it knew was too low because projecting the real costs would have been politically unpalatable on Capitol Hill.

"We knew that the F-22 was going to cost more than the Air Force thought it was going to cost and we budgeted the lower number, and I was there," Hamre told the Senate Armed Services Committee in April. "I'm not proud of it," Hamre added in a recent interview.

When limited production began in 2001, the plane was "substantially behind its plan to achieve reliability goals," the GAO said in a report the following year. Structural problems that turned up in subsequent testing forced retrofits to the frame and changes in the fuel flow. Computer flaws, combined with defective software diagnostics, forced the frequent retesting of millions of lines of code, said two Defense officials with access to internal reports.

"When I got into this thing . . . I could not believe the compromises" made by Lockheed to meet the Air Force's request for quick results, said Olsen, who had a top-secret clearance. "I suggested we go to the Air Force and tell them we had some difficulties . . . and they would not do that. I was squashed. I knew from the get-go that this material was bad, that this correcting it in the field was never going to work."

In late 2005, Boeing learned of defects in titanium booms connecting the wings to the plane, which the company, in a subsequent lawsuit against its supplier, said posed the risk of "catastrophic loss of the aircraft." But rather than shut down the production line -- an act that would have incurred large Air Force penalties -- Boeing reached an accord with the Air Force to resolve the problem through increased inspections over the life of the fleet, with expenses to be mostly paid by the Air Force.

Sprey said engineers who worked on it told him that because of Lockheed's use of hundreds of subcontractors, quality control was so poor that workers had to create a "shim line" at the Georgia plant where they retooled badly designed or poorly manufactured components. "Each plane wound up with all these hand-fitted parts that caused huge fits in maintenance," he said. "They were not interchangeable."

"It flunked on suitability measures -- availability, reliability, and maintenance," said Christie about the first of those tests. "There was no consequence. It did not faze anybody who was in the decision loop" for approving the plane's full production. This outcome was hardly unique, Christie adds. During his tenure in the job from 2001 to 2005, "16 or 17 major weapons systems flunked" during initial operational tests, and "not one was stopped as a result."

"I don't accept that this is still early in the program," Christie said, explaining that he does not recall a plane with such a low capability to fulfill its mission due to maintenance problems at this point in its tenure as the F-22. The Pentagon said 64 percent of the fleet is currently "mission capable." After four years of rigorous testing and operations, "the trends are not good," he added.

When Gates decided this spring to spend $785 million on four more planes and then end production of the F-22, he also kept alive an $8 billion improvement effort. It will, among other things, give F-22 pilots the ability to communicate with other types of warplanes; it currently is the only such warplane to lack that capability.

Well, I have seen it fly in the rain in Hawaii. The CO poisoning the pilots was, and is, a major concern and why they haven't fully rectified that issue I have no idea. However, virtually every major aircraft program has hiccups. The B-17 had weaknesses that didn't become apparent till it was used in combat, likewise virtually every other bomber that was used to win WWII.

All of our Cold War fighters had teething problems. It's a fantasy to think you're going to come up with something a generation above all others and not have problems. That's the nature of the aerospace world.

The F-22 though, when it works, is a world beater. We have seen that. Now the only job is to get it working as close to 100% of the time as possible.

These are not hiccups, they are disasters that have not been overcome in the over 40 years of development, testing, production & use of the F-22. These are problems that should have been fixed in development & prototype phase. Now taxpayers were swindled out of $70 billion for a fleet of junk that are to unreliable & nonfunctional be useful in combat.

You idiots ***** about ethanol, wind & solar that actually function & work. Then turn & defend the F-35 & F-22 taxpayer fleecing scams.





No, they are hiccups. New technologies take a long time to perfect. But those new technologies actually benefit the rest of industry as well as they get taken from the military realm to the civilian.

I ***** about inefficiencies, there's a huge difference between that and what you claim. If solar was efficient I wouldn't have a care in the world. But it's not. Same goes for wind power too. We pay far more for the energy they give us then we should, they DON'T reduce pollution, merely placing the footprint elsewhere, and don't generate useful technologies that can be used in other endeavors.
 
15th post
F-15 has proven itself as decent fighter. I would build more but upgrade them. Better engines, better electronics, thrust vectoring nozzles if they dont alrdy have them. What we should have done with F-14.

F-22 would smoke F-16. Altitude advantage and supercruise just insurmountable.
 
F-22 would smoke F-16. Altitude advantage and supercruise just insurmountable.

Only in theory. In reality the F-22 never enters the fight while the F-16's wipe out the entire F-22 fleet as they sit on the ground or fall out of the sky trying to get to the fight. :lol:

46% of the F-22's can't even fly. :lol: 100% of the F-22's have never made it to the combat because they are unreliable. :lol:

$80 billion for 187 F-22 planes that will never see combat, much less have any real world advantage in combat. :mad: Tax Payer!!!
 
Last edited:
When was the last time a new aircraft design didn't require a lengthy and expensive development process?
We can't continue to rely on forty year old designs, F-16s and F-15s are already outclassed by the latest Russian designs.
 
Back
Top Bottom