F-22 or F-35? you decide!!

[Navy1960]

The debate is now heating up on this issue in congress and it's been interesting to watch the number of Sen. that are on one side or the other of killing the F-22. I cannot believe I actually find myself in agreement with Chris Dodd on this issue and his claims on the Senate floor tend to reflect my own when it comes to the F-22. The Air Force wants it, it's good for employment, and good for the nation, and the only people that don't want it are the Administration and it's appointee's. He makes a really good case that to use the F-35 as a substitute for the F-22 is a complete mistake and I agree with him.

 

[DiveCon]

The debate is now heating up on this issue in congress and it's been interesting to watch the number of Sen. that are on one side or the other of killing the F-22. I cannot believe I actually find myself in agreement with Chris Dodd on this issue and his claims on the Senate floor tend to reflect my own when it comes to the F-22. The Air Force wants it, it's good for employment, and good for the nation, and the only people that don't want it are the Administration and it's appointee's. He makes a really good case that to use the F-35 as a substitute for the F-22 is a complete mistake and I agree with him.

chalk it up to broken clock syndrome

 

[DiveCon]

washingtonpost.com

oh well

 

[Navy1960]

Dive my firm is in the process of writing an article for the one of our Aviation trade publications that hopefully will encourage congress to lift the ban on exports on this aircraft so that at least they can export it to Australia or Israel or perhaps Japan in order to keep this vital asset alive. If the DoD and the administration are intent on killing it for the Air Force and not listening to the warfighters and purchase more C-17's to add to an already over capacity of airlift capability and yet deny air to air capability at the expense of almost 95,000 jobs then they should listen to voices that insist that the export ban be lifted to take away the excuse that it will impact the deficit.

 

[DiveCon]

Dive my firm is in the process of writing an article for the one of our Aviation trade publications that hopefully will encourage congress to lift the ban on exports on this aircraft so that at least they can export it to Australia or Israel or perhaps Japan in order to keep this vital asset alive. If the DoD and the administration are intent on killing it for the Air Force and not listening to the warfighters and purchase more C-17's to add to an already over capacity of airlift capability and yet deny air to air capability at the expense of almost 95,000 jobs then they should listen to voices that insist that the export ban be lifted to take away the excuse that it will impact the deficit.

actually, i'm more pissed that we have a congress that is unfriendly to our military more than i'm worried about the manufacturers

 

[Navy1960]

Dive my firm is in the process of writing an article for the one of our Aviation trade publications that hopefully will encourage congress to lift the ban on exports on this aircraft so that at least they can export it to Australia or Israel or perhaps Japan in order to keep this vital asset alive. If the DoD and the administration are intent on killing it for the Air Force and not listening to the warfighters and purchase more C-17's to add to an already over capacity of airlift capability and yet deny air to air capability at the expense of almost 95,000 jobs then they should listen to voices that insist that the export ban be lifted to take away the excuse that it will impact the deficit.

actually, i'm more pissed that we have a congress that is unfriendly to our military more than i'm worried about the manufacturers

Dive, this is nothing new for congress and DoD who have shown little ability in the last 20 years to deliver weapons systems to the warfighter. They have shown a great abililty to spend money with no results, the landscape is littered with programs like the comanche, crusader cannon, Presidential helicopter, Air Force Tanker, A-12, etc etc. the list is endless of billions of dollars spent for nothing and a congress that NEVER listens to the actual warfighters that express the needs but would rather listen to appointees and run with it. In fact look at the US Navy and the debacle that the Litoral Combat Ship has turned into, and the recent penchant on the Navy's part for taking ships like the Spruance Class and sinking them all when the life cycle of half the ships was no where close to an end or selling off the Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigates to nations like Pakistan and others because the Navy has said those are not needed as well. This is just a small illustration of a congress that has no clue how to give the warfighter the tools needed to perform the job and a DoD thats more interested in kissing the current Administrations backside than listening to the needs of the warfighters. So as another suggestion what I believe the DoD should do is bring the F-117 out of mothballs that they retired 10 years to early in favor of the F-22 and use those to fill in the gaps that will be in place until the F-35 comes online. At least that will keep employee's on the line and provide defense needs for the time being.

 

[mightypeon]

Well, once Germany became relativly lax in its "who do we export our weapons to" regulations, quality of new developments significantly increased.
The Leopard 2 for example was, until the 2A6 version, slightly inferior (duel situation, this tanks never faced of in battles) to both the M1A2 and the T-90, however the continuing demands from the quite numerous countries using Leopards enabled the relativly small KMW arms company to catch up and even surpass current Russian or US technology on the ground.
Leopard 2 based advancements were also used in the construction of the PzH2000, the most modern SP Artillery Howitzer today.
As the only competitor coming close to it comes from Russia (bear in mind that the current state of the art Russian artillery system is also a generation or 2 ahead of the American M109, the Russians have a good system, but beeing Russian rules them out for most Nato countries), the PzH will propably become an other significant success like the Leopard 2.
I was an Artillery jock so I am propably biased, but in the case of a limited conventional conflict like in Georgia, Americas inferiority in Artillery may cost them a lot (well, a single PZH2000 has the firepower of 4 M109, moves faster, has to be hit directly to be destroyed, has MRSI and excellent shoot and scoot capacity... Well, it also weighs about as much as an MBT but you cant have everything), especially if modern and competently used ground based air defense systems hamper their aerial superiority.

 

[ekrem]

Well, once Germany became relativly lax in its "who do we export our weapons to" regulations, quality of new developments significantly increased.
The Leopard 2 for example was, until the 2A6 version, slightly inferior (duel situation, this tanks never faced of in battles) to both the M1A2 and the T-90, however the continuing demands from the quite numerous countries using Leopards enabled the relativly small KMW arms company to catch up and even surpass current Russian or US technology on the ground.
Leopard 2 based advancements were also used in the construction of the PzH2000, the most modern SP Artillery Howitzer today.
As the only competitor coming close to it comes from Russia (bear in mind that the current state of the art Russian artillery system is also a generation or 2 ahead of the American M109, the Russians have a good system, but beeing Russian rules them out for most Nato countries), the PzH will propably become an other significant success like the Leopard 2.
I was an Artillery jock so I am propably biased, but in the case of a limited conventional conflict like in Georgia, Americas inferiority in Artillery may cost them a lot (well, a single PZH2000 has the firepower of 4 M109, moves faster, has to be hit directly to be destroyed, has MRSI and excellent shoot and scoot capacity... Well, it also weighs about as much as an MBT but you cant have everything), especially if modern and competently used ground based air defense systems hamper their aerial superiority.

Turkey did order 116 F-35, with currently workshare of Turkish firms being somewhere at 6 Billion $. Very likely Turkey will order even more replaceing the F-4's in the inventory, they where modernized in the last years together with workshare by Israelian Aerospace Industries, but at 2020 this old airframe will be out of service.

The Turkish Armed Forces has initiated a $160 billion (excluding the yearly military budget) modernization program in 1997. $45 billion is earmarked to go to the overhaul of the Turkish Air Force.
Turkish Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the next decade, as orders currently stand:
116 F-35
240 F-16 CCIP
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator
104 F-4E Phantom II
39 RF-4E Phantom II
43 F-5 2000

The Turkish Airforce will not order any Eurofighter or any other aircraft except F-35.
Eurofighter offered Turkey 9 Billion $ workshare for Turkish Industry, if Turkey orders 120 Eurofighter.
Turkey Receives Final Offer for Eurofighter Typhoon
Economically, participating in Eurofighter project is better. So if Turkey does reject Eurofighter and goes for F-35 instead, it means F-35 is the best option available from view of Turkey, haveing the expertise of being one of the largest Airforces in the world. F-35 will be the workhrse of Turkish Airforce in the next decades.

Off course F-22 is better, but it is not available for export. F-35 is anyway good.

 

[DiveCon]

Well, once Germany became relativly lax in its "who do we export our weapons to" regulations, quality of new developments significantly increased.
The Leopard 2 for example was, until the 2A6 version, slightly inferior (duel situation, this tanks never faced of in battles) to both the M1A2 and the T-90, however the continuing demands from the quite numerous countries using Leopards enabled the relativly small KMW arms company to catch up and even surpass current Russian or US technology on the ground.
Leopard 2 based advancements were also used in the construction of the PzH2000, the most modern SP Artillery Howitzer today.
As the only competitor coming close to it comes from Russia (bear in mind that the current state of the art Russian artillery system is also a generation or 2 ahead of the American M109, the Russians have a good system, but beeing Russian rules them out for most Nato countries), the PzH will propably become an other significant success like the Leopard 2.
I was an Artillery jock so I am propably biased, but in the case of a limited conventional conflict like in Georgia, Americas inferiority in Artillery may cost them a lot (well, a single PZH2000 has the firepower of 4 M109, moves faster, has to be hit directly to be destroyed, has MRSI and excellent shoot and scoot capacity... Well, it also weighs about as much as an MBT but you cant have everything), especially if modern and competently used ground based air defense systems hamper their aerial superiority.

Turkey did order 116 F-35, with currently workshare of Turkish firms being somewhere at 6 Billion $. Very likely Turkey will order even more replaceing the F-4's in the inventory, they where modernized in the last years together with workshare by Israelian Aerospace Industries, but at 2020 this old airframe will be out of service.

The Turkish Armed Forces has initiated a $160 billion (excluding the yearly military budget) modernization program in 1997. $45 billion is earmarked to go to the overhaul of the Turkish Air Force.
Turkish Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the next decade, as orders currently stand:
116 F-35
240 F-16 CCIP
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator
104 F-4E Phantom II
39 RF-4E Phantom II
43 F-5 2000

The Turkish Airforce will not order any Eurofighter or any other aircraft except F-35.
Eurofighter offered Turkey 9 Billion $ workshare for Turkish Industry, if Turkey orders 120 Eurofighter.
Turkey Receives Final Offer for Eurofighter Typhoon
Economically, participating in Eurofighter project is better. So if Turkey does reject Eurofighter and goes for F-35 instead, it means F-35 is the best option available from view of Turkey, haveing the expertise of being one of the largest Airforces in the world. F-35 will be the workhrse of Turkish Airforce in the next decades.

Off course F-22 is better, but it is not available for export. F-35 is anyway good.

or Turkey wants better relations with the USA after stabbing us in the back over Iraq
it could be purely political

 

[ekrem]

or Turkey wants better relations with the USA after stabbing us in the back over Iraq
it could be purely political

The end-user is the Airforce. Who orders the aircrafts is the government. The government does not order something which the airforce does not want. You can be sure, that the Airforce makes decisions up on technical questions.

Turkish Airforce did already test 3 Eurofighter in Italy:
Turkey May Buy Eurofighters

The airforce prefers F-35. So F-35 must be good.

 

[DiveCon]

or Turkey wants better relations with the USA after stabbing us in the back over Iraq
it could be purely political

The end-user is the Airforce. Who orders the aircrafts is the government. The government does not order something which the airforce does not want. You can be sure, that the Airforce makes decisions up on technical questions.

Turkish Airforce did already test 3 Eurofighter in Italy:
Turkey May Buy Eurofighters

The airforce prefers F-35. So F-35 must be good.

that doesnt mean that politics had no part in it

 

[The T]

Dive my firm is in the process of writing an article for the one of our Aviation trade publications that hopefully will encourage congress to lift the ban on exports on this aircraft so that at least they can export it to Australia or Israel or perhaps Japan in order to keep this vital asset alive. If the DoD and the administration are intent on killing it for the Air Force and not listening to the warfighters and purchase more C-17's to add to an already over capacity of airlift capability and yet deny air to air capability at the expense of almost 95,000 jobs then they should listen to voices that insist that the export ban be lifted to take away the excuse that it will impact the deficit.

actually, i'm more pissed that we have a congress that is unfriendly to our military more than i'm worried about the manufacturers

(And A POTUS, I might add?)?

 

[BolshevikHunter]

How about scrapping both of them and use the money to provide homes, education and health for those that need it. Would that not be the logical thing to do in a bankrupt nation.

How about you remove your head from your behind you idiot. After Red China defeated us I am sure they would provide a home, education and health care for all you lazy bums. You people are clearly mentally ill. You have been standing on the shoulders of better Men since the beginning of time you gutless weak coward. Get off your lazy ass and provide for your families yourself. We will make sure that we have the means to defend ourselves because everything else comes after that you stoned idiot. Smoke up Johnny!

~BH

 

[BolshevikHunter]

This administration is lawless and out of control. This put's us all in danger. We need the F-22 for the future conflict with Red China. ~BH

 

[Luissa]

F 22, I think I had one buzz my tower while on my brother's ranch in Wyomning. They have war games or whatever around where he lived and would fly below radar as they say. Just say I could read the number on the bottom of the aircraft. I almost pissed my pants when he broke the sound barrier.

 

[DiveCon]

F 22, I think I had one buzz my tower while on my brother's ranch in Wyomning. They have war games or whatever around where he lived and would fly below radar as they say. Just say I could read the number on the bottom of the aircraft. I almost pissed my pants when he broke the sound barrier.

how long ago was this?

 

[Luissa]

F 22, I think I had one buzz my tower while on my brother's ranch in Wyomning. They have war games or whatever around where he lived and would fly below radar as they say. Just say I could read the number on the bottom of the aircraft. I almost pissed my pants when he broke the sound barrier.

how long ago was this?

about eight years ago. they still do it in wyomning where my brother lives because there is no one out there. I think they fly out of Rapid or something. It might not have been F 22's but I thought that was what they were.

 

[cunclusion]

I think we need to focus more on F35's the fact it can be used by various departments within our military. We need to use history as a basis for our possible future engagement with China:

In WWII the Germans had a more advance tanks than the Allies especially the Western allies but they were beat by sheer number of tanks on the battlefield. While on the Eastern front it was a combination of both technology and number. Now based on that we have to change the way we would approach any future engagments especially with China.

 

[namvet]

the 22 is scraped. its being sold to other countries

 

[Andrew2382]

i didn't hear anything about the 22 being sold... got a source for that?