End corporate welfare!

[Mr.Nick]

You'd have to be economically ignorant to use the term "corporate welfare."

In what universe does the government own all the wealth???

I see the communists are doing a fantastic job brainwashing people.

NOW, in reality - its the corporations who are generating wealth while giving the GOVERNMENT welfare

Now, can any of you prove me wrong??? because I can prove I'm right. All you gotta do is look up capitalism and free market economy..

Its all very clear.

Unbelievable .... Simply amazing!!!!

 

[bripat9643]

Sure. BF, no problem.

The social contract we live under is called the Consitutuion of the United States of America, and all the laws which flow from that founding document.

We modify this social contract every time we change a law or policy.

For a contract to be legal, both parties have to agree to it.

When did I agree to the Constitution?

 

[KissMy]

Corn based ethanol is a waste. If we took all the corn produced and used if for fuel only it would only cover like 5% of our total demand.

Ethanol is a waste. It takes more money and energy to produce less energy than what went into the production process all for a crisis that doesn't exist, while creating problems for the rest of the economy beyond that of mere wasted tax monies.

It will raise the cost of food, on many fronts. The majority of the corn grown in the USA is feed for livestock.

The US farmer produces over 12 billion bushel of #2 yellow field corn every year. Humans eat sweet corn. Humans do not eat this field corn. It is fed to livestock. Extracting Ethanol from this corn only uses the starch of the corn. All the protein remains as Distiller Dried Grains (DDG) animal feed. Protein is what builds muscles in animals. Muscles = Meat, Steak, Hamburger, etc. Corn starch created methane gas in farm animals. This is smelly & is 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than (CO2) Carbon Dioxide ever was.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it still leaves US & the World nearly all the animal feed value in the form of DDGs that we would have got from feeding corn directly to animals. We still export the DDG animal feed to China & the rest of the world the same way we did the corn.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

The Brazil ethanol tariff was only to offset their tariff on our ethanol going to their country. It did not cost us a dime & created no revenue. Brazil just dropped their tariff a few months ago & we may soon drop ours but Brazil heavily subsidizes their ethanol industry & would try to dump their subsidized ethanol onto our markets collapsing our ethanol industry. Brazil & many other countries now import our US Corn Ethanol into their countries.

E10 gasoline is what we all burn in our automobiles in the USA today. It is 10% ethanol. That 45 cent per gallon of 100% ethanol is divided by 10 for E10 gasoline. That equals a 4.5 cent tax break for oil companies who sell you E10 gasoline. If this tax break is taken away you will have to pay 4.5 cents per gallon more at the pump for regular E10 gasoline.

You pay ~12 cents per gallon credit/debit card transaction fee per gallon just so you don't have to mess with cash.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Good. Show me the amendment or codicil or enumerated power that allows government to take for a from one citizen and give to another. If the constitution is our social contract, you need to show the power.

I need to find you?

What am I your legal clerk?

Here, be my guest.

FindLaw: Cases and Codes

My copy of the constitution I have does not have any enumerated power in it giving any of the power you seem to think it has for wholesale taking like you desire. You're making the assertion. And providing no proof.

As for being a law-clerk, I wouldn't trust you to sit the right way on a toilet.

And poor Wry. Still won't answer the challenge, or shall I just start taking his avoidance as admission he's no interest in ending welfare, just hurting capitalism, corporations and productive people.

"Powers not delegated to the US, nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the States and to the people"

 

[Wry Catcher]

Ethanol is a waste. It takes more money and energy to produce less energy than what went into the production process all for a crisis that doesn't exist, while creating problems for the rest of the economy beyond that of mere wasted tax monies.

It will raise the cost of food, on many fronts. The majority of the corn grown in the USA is feed for livestock.

The US farmer produces over 12 billion bushel of #2 yellow field corn every year. Humans eat sweet corn. Humans do not eat this field corn. It is fed to livestock. Extracting Ethanol from this corn only uses the starch of the corn. All the protein remains as Distiller Dried Grains (DDG) animal feed. Protein is what builds muscles in animals. Muscles = Meat, Steak, Hamburger, etc. Corn starch created methane gas in farm animals. This is smelly & is 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than (CO2) Carbon Dioxide ever was.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it still leaves US & the World nearly all the animal feed value in the form of DDGs that we would have got from feeding corn directly to animals. We still export the DDG animal feed to China & the rest of the world the same way we did the corn.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

The Brazil ethanol tariff was only to offset their tariff on our ethanol going to their country. It did not cost us a dime & created no revenue. Brazil just dropped their tariff a few months ago & we will soon drop ours. Brazil & many other countries now import our US Corn Ethanol into their countries.

E10 gasoline is what we all burn in our automobiles in the USA today. It is 10% ethanol. That 45 cent per gallon of 100% ethanol is divided by 10 for E10 gasoline. That equals a 4.5 cent tax break for oil companies who sell you E10 gasoline. If this tax break is taken away you will have to pay 4.5 cents per gallon more at the pump for regular E10 gasoline.

You pay ~12 cents per gallon credit/debit card transaction fee per gallon just so you don't have to mess with cash.

Excellent post, please provide a source, I'd like to learn more.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Also, taxation is a violation of the Fourth Amendment...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Most taxes are illegal...

A product can be taxed but you cant tax an individual, nor can you tax a corporation thats treated as an individual..

Its illegal...

 

[KissMy]

The US farmer produces over 12 billion bushel of #2 yellow field corn every year. Humans eat sweet corn. Humans do not eat this field corn. It is fed to livestock. Extracting Ethanol from this corn only uses the starch of the corn. All the protein remains as Distiller Dried Grains (DDG) animal feed. Protein is what builds muscles in animals. Muscles = Meat, Steak, Hamburger, etc. Corn starch created methane gas in farm animals. This is smelly & is 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than (CO2) Carbon Dioxide ever was.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it still leaves US & the World nearly all the animal feed value in the form of DDGs that we would have got from feeding corn directly to animals. We still export the DDG animal feed to China & the rest of the world the same way we did the corn.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

The Brazil ethanol tariff was only to offset their tariff on our ethanol going to their country. It did not cost us a dime & created no revenue. Brazil just dropped their tariff a few months ago & we may soon drop ours but Brazil heavily subsidizes their ethanol industry & would try to dump their subsidized ethanol onto our markets collapsing our ethanol industry. Brazil & many other countries now import our US Corn Ethanol into their countries.

E10 gasoline is what we all burn in our automobiles in the USA today. It is 10% ethanol. That 45 cent per gallon of 100% ethanol is divided by 10 for E10 gasoline. That equals a 4.5 cent tax break for oil companies who sell you E10 gasoline. If this tax break is taken away you will have to pay 4.5 cents per gallon more at the pump for regular E10 gasoline.

You pay ~12 cents per gallon credit/debit card transaction fee per gallon just so you don't have to mess with cash.

Excellent post, please provide a source, I'd like to learn more.

This info is from many sources. You can start with these:

Ethanol Exports Continue to Surge: Anti-Dumping Investigation Reduces DDGS Exports to China

Methane is over 20 times more effective in trapping heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide (CO2)

MTBE in Gasoline: Clean Air and Drinking Water Issues

500,000 jobs created by U.S. ethanol industry

Brazil drops 20 percent ethanol tariff

 

[Mr. H.]

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

I'm sure that's Big Ag's goal.
But, as it now stands, we're diverting 30% of the corn crop to ethanol production already yet exporting 30% of the ethanol produced.

Why is this? It wasn't part of the plan that was shoved down our throats 30 years ago.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol pollutes groundwater too.
There was no need to outlaw MTBE. The whole issue was one of containment.
Big Ag saw to its demise.

 

[Big Fitz]

Ethanol is a waste. It takes more money and energy to produce less energy than what went into the production process all for a crisis that doesn't exist, while creating problems for the rest of the economy beyond that of mere wasted tax monies.

It will raise the cost of food, on many fronts. The majority of the corn grown in the USA is feed for livestock.

The US farmer produces over 12 billion bushel of #2 yellow field corn every year. Humans eat sweet corn. Humans do not eat this field corn. It is fed to livestock. Extracting Ethanol from this corn only uses the starch of the corn. All the protein remains as Distiller Dried Grains (DDG) animal feed. Protein is what builds muscles in animals. Muscles = Meat, Steak, Hamburger, etc. Corn starch created methane gas in farm animals. This is smelly & is 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than (CO2) Carbon Dioxide ever was.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it still leaves US & the World nearly all the animal feed value in the form of DDGs that we would have got from feeding corn directly to animals. We still export the DDG animal feed to China & the rest of the world the same way we did the corn.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

The Brazil ethanol tariff was only to offset their tariff on our ethanol going to their country. It did not cost us a dime & created no revenue. Brazil just dropped their tariff a few months ago & we may soon drop ours but Brazil heavily subsidizes their ethanol industry & would try to dump their subsidized ethanol onto our markets collapsing our ethanol industry. Brazil & many other countries now import our US Corn Ethanol into their countries.

E10 gasoline is what we all burn in our automobiles in the USA today. It is 10% ethanol. That 45 cent per gallon of 100% ethanol is divided by 10 for E10 gasoline. That equals a 4.5 cent tax break for oil companies who sell you E10 gasoline. If this tax break is taken away you will have to pay 4.5 cents per gallon more at the pump for regular E10 gasoline.

You pay ~12 cents per gallon credit/debit card transaction fee per gallon just so you don't have to mess with cash.

Too bad global warming is a fraud and greenhouse gas emissions is a non-event. Otherwise you'd possibly have something there.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

And receive half the power for that same replaced 25% of petroleum based fuel causing an increase of usage by 50% making for a net gain in the greenhouse gas theory you're pedaling as a (false) crisis.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Another chemical that should be removed from gasoline regardless.

The Brazil ethanol tariff was only to offset their tariff on our ethanol going to their country. It did not cost us a dime & created no revenue. Brazil just dropped their tariff a few months ago & we may soon drop ours but Brazil heavily subsidizes their ethanol industry & would try to dump their subsidized ethanol onto our markets collapsing our ethanol industry. Brazil & many other countries now import our US Corn Ethanol into their countries.

And we DON'T heavily subsidize ethanol? Oh mergatroid! You are gullible if you think that. From farmer to fuel station, they're getting subsidized to make the process worth a damn. Ethanol is an abject failure as a fuel save for desperation for energy... which we are not.

E10 gasoline is what we all burn in our automobiles in the USA today. It is 10% ethanol. That 45 cent per gallon of 100% ethanol is divided by 10 for E10 gasoline. That equals a 4.5 cent tax break for oil companies who sell you E10 gasoline. If this tax break is taken away you will have to pay 4.5 cents per gallon more at the pump for regular E10 gasoline.

And shouldn't be. End boutique blends and ethanol blending in general you will see an instant improvement in fuel efficiency, a drop in cost and increase in supply. Plus the ethanol will stop eating at our roads, the insides of our cars and generally being an unnecessary nuisance to the environment. The plants love it. Double the production of CO2? Well, sacrifices must be made.

You pay ~12 cents per gallon credit/debit card transaction fee per gallon just so you don't have to mess with cash.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The US farmer produces over 12 billion bushel of #2 yellow field corn every year. Humans eat sweet corn. Humans do not eat this field corn. It is fed to livestock. Extracting Ethanol from this corn only uses the starch of the corn. All the protein remains as Distiller Dried Grains (DDG) animal feed. Protein is what builds muscles in animals. Muscles = Meat, Steak, Hamburger, etc. Corn starch created methane gas in farm animals. This is smelly & is 15 times stronger of a greenhouse gas than (CO2) Carbon Dioxide ever was.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it still leaves US & the World nearly all the animal feed value in the form of DDGs that we would have got from feeding corn directly to animals. We still export the DDG animal feed to China & the rest of the world the same way we did the corn.

If you converted all the Corn grown in the USA into Ethanol it can replace 25% of the total US Gasoline demand 12% of the total US Crude Oil demand.

Mixing Ethanol into Gasoline prevents the need for refineries to add the ground water polluting MTBE into gasoline.

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

The Brazil ethanol tariff was only to offset their tariff on our ethanol going to their country. It did not cost us a dime & created no revenue. Brazil just dropped their tariff a few months ago & we may soon drop ours but Brazil heavily subsidizes their ethanol industry & would try to dump their subsidized ethanol onto our markets collapsing our ethanol industry. Brazil & many other countries now import our US Corn Ethanol into their countries.

E10 gasoline is what we all burn in our automobiles in the USA today. It is 10% ethanol. That 45 cent per gallon of 100% ethanol is divided by 10 for E10 gasoline. That equals a 4.5 cent tax break for oil companies who sell you E10 gasoline. If this tax break is taken away you will have to pay 4.5 cents per gallon more at the pump for regular E10 gasoline.

You pay ~12 cents per gallon credit/debit card transaction fee per gallon just so you don't have to mess with cash.

Excellent post, please provide a source, I'd like to learn more.

This info is from many sources. You can start with these:

Ethanol Exports Continue to Surge: Anti-Dumping Investigation Reduces DDGS Exports to China

Methane is over 20 times more effective in trapping heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide (CO2)

MTBE in Gasoline: Clean Air and Drinking Water Issues

500,000 jobs created by U.S. ethanol industry

Brazil drops 20 percent ethanol tariff

The links provided more questions than answers.

 

[Moving to USA]

I have diesel. I cant use E-10.
I could use Bio Diesel, but at this point it is not really clean enough and Im not willing to have to replace injectors every 50k miles just to use it. (injectors 398.00 each, 8 in the truck, 4 in the car)

 

[Oddball]

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

It damned well better, as heavily subsidized as it is.

So, what would those jobs (let alone any of the other fool "green" jobs) pay if the entire industry wasn't propped up by the taxpayer?....A lot less, if they even existed at all, I'd wager.

BTW, isn't this thread about ending corporate welfare, rather than rationalizing it?

 

[Oddball]

Sure. BF, no problem.

The social contract we live under is called the Consitutuion of the United States of America, and all the laws which flow from that founding document.

We modify this social contract every time we change a law or policy.

Wrong-o, Skeezix.

The Constitution fro the United States is the contract that POLITICIANS take an oath to protect, defend and adhere to, in order to protect the rights of We the People.

The "social contract" as it is invoked by the authoritarian Fabian/progressive liberoidal douchebag like Fly Catcher, is a mythical strawman that would end up being ruled an unenforceable contract of adhesion if it existed in actual reality.

I actually enjoy being lectured on political theory and practice as well as ConLaw by Odd-dude. The entire thrust of his argument is based on personally attacking anyone - and in particular Wry Catcher - who doesn't bleat the same tired and absurd dogma of the fringe.

Notice Odd-dude and BF and the rest of echo chamber members all bleat the same tune, usually thanking each other for insipid posts repeating the same tired theme based on an ideology of sand.

It's not in the Constitution, so it ain't legal buster earns high honors and positve reap from other fringers, most of whom seem to have never taken a HS course in Civics let alone studied law.

So, can't produce that unicorn of a "social contract" (speaking of insipid strawemen) for one and all to see, I notice.

You lose again, Vermin.

 

[Oddball]

The social contract we live under is called the Consitutuion of the United States of America, and all the laws which flow from that founding document.

We modify this social contract every time we change a law or policy.

Good. Show me the amendment or codicil or enumerated power that allows government to take for a from one citizen and give to another. If the constitution is our social contract, you need to show the power.

I need to find you?

What am I your legal clerk?

Here, be my guest.

FindLaw: Cases and Codes

That doesn't specifically answer the man's question.

You the one who is being called to account for the provision in the federal charter, that gives them the power to take resources from one person, in order to feather the nest of another....Fact remains that there isn't one.

 

[Big Fitz]

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

It damned well better, as heavily subsidized as it is.

So, what would those jobs (let alone any of the other fool "green" jobs) pay if the entire industry wasn't propped up by the taxpayer?....A lot less, if they even existed at all, I'd wager.

BTW, isn't this thread about ending corporate welfare, rather than rationalizing it?

So... using the data from the effect green jobs had on Spain, it's cost the nation 1.1 million regular jobs.

 

[Big Fitz]

Wrong-o, Skeezix.

The Constitution fro the United States is the contract that POLITICIANS take an oath to protect, defend and adhere to, in order to protect the rights of We the People.

The "social contract" as it is invoked by the authoritarian Fabian/progressive liberoidal douchebag like Fly Catcher, is a mythical strawman that would end up being ruled an unenforceable contract of adhesion if it existed in actual reality.

I actually enjoy being lectured on political theory and practice as well as ConLaw by Odd-dude. The entire thrust of his argument is based on personally attacking anyone - and in particular Wry Catcher - who doesn't bleat the same tired and absurd dogma of the fringe.

Notice Odd-dude and BF and the rest of echo chamber members all bleat the same tune, usually thanking each other for insipid posts repeating the same tired theme based on an ideology of sand.

It's not in the Constitution, so it ain't legal buster earns high honors and positve reap from other fringers, most of whom seem to have never taken a HS course in Civics let alone studied law.

So, can't produce that unicorn of a "social contract" (speaking of insipid strawemen) for one and all to see, I notice.

You lose again, Vermin.

And the challenge to end all welfare stands like a monolith. Untouched, unchallenged and revealing.

 

[Oddball]

Sure. BF, no problem.

The social contract we live under is called the Consitutuion of the United States of America, and all the laws which flow from that founding document.

We modify this social contract every time we change a law or policy.

Now there's a pet name I haven't heard in a long time.




Yes, and so...?

The "social contract" as it is invoked by the authoritarian Fabian/progressive liberoidal douchebag like Fly Catcher, is a mythical strawman that would end up being ruled an unenforceable contract of adhesion if it existed in actual reality.

Say what?

Every society has a social contract, either written (like our Constitution) or implied (as in "English common law).

In our case, the foundation of our social contract is outlined in the US constitution.

Upon that foundation all other federal laws derived.

Now you may not like that answer, but to deny it is just plain silly.

Bullshit.

The term "contract" has specific and enumerated terms, conditions and implications. For example, contracts are entered into voluntarily by all parties, have a specific time period for which they are valid (IOW they're not totally open-ended), terms and conditions for fulfillment and/or default.

The mythical "social contract" has none of these features of legitimate contracts...As I said, if it existed in actual reality, there isn't a court in the land which wouldn't nullify it as an unenforceable adhesion contract.

 

[KissMy]

Ethanol production in the USA has created over 500,000 good paying jobs in the USA. Not part time minimum wage jobs. If you add up the 45 cent per gallon of ethanol tax break the oil companies get it is around $3.6 billion per year. Divide that by the 500,000 good paying jobs it created & it is about $7,000 per job. Way less than any other green job.

It damned well better, as heavily subsidized as it is.

So, what would those jobs (let alone any of the other fool "green" jobs) pay if the entire industry wasn't propped up by the taxpayer?....A lot less, if they even existed at all, I'd wager.

BTW, isn't this thread about ending corporate welfare, rather than rationalizing it?

We export ethanol that gets no subsidy or tax credit. It is viable without "corporate welfare". It gets a bad rap from everyone pointing fingers.

 

[Big Fitz]

Now there's a pet name I haven't heard in a long time.




Yes, and so...?



Say what?

Every society has a social contract, either written (like our Constitution) or implied (as in "English common law).

In our case, the foundation of our social contract is outlined in the US constitution.

Upon that foundation all other federal laws derived.

Now you may not like that answer, but to deny it is just plain silly.

Bullshit.

The term "contract" has specific and enumerated terms, conditions and implications. For example, contracts are entered into voluntarily by all parties, have a specific time period for which they are valid (IOW they're not totally open-ended), terms and conditions for fulfillment and/or default.

The mythical "social contract" has none of these features of legitimate contracts...As I said, if it existed in actual reality, there isn't a court in the land which wouldn't nullify it as an unenforceable adhesion contract.

Doesn't being party of to a contract require me to sign on and have a say in the contract? Why does it feel like this is a high pressure sale for a timeshare?

 

[KissMy]

And we DON'T heavily subsidize ethanol? Oh mergatroid! You are gullible if you think that. From farmer to fuel station, they're getting subsidized to make the process worth a damn. Ethanol is an abject failure as a fuel save for desperation for energy... which we are not.

Farmers & Ethanol Plants are not subsidized. Only the Oil Companies get the tax break for blending ethanol with their gasoline & selling it in their pumps. We export Ethanol & DDGs with no subsidy or tax breaks because it does not get blended here by the oil companies or sold at their pumps.

Farmers do not own gas stations so the oil company tax credit got them to sell it to their customers. Ethanol plants are working on plans to start their own fuel stations to sell their product in the USA. In a few short years that tax credit will no longer be needed for the oil companies to sell it for them. They will be in competition with them. Competition will mean lower prices for everyone.