Education Teachers Values

[Disir]

Should we spend the same amount of money on each child's elementary and high school education or should we spend more money on some children's education and less on others?

Do you have a proposal on how to accomplish that one? Can you tell me where the money would go?

 

[Disir]

Funny the best example of a successful AMERICAN education system is the Hillsdale Academy. It distributes its plan nationwide. In a small rural setting it has produced a number of National Merit Scholars and very high test scores by stressing traditional subjects including Latin.

That's what we need, lots of students who can pass tests, because then they'll have the skills needed to pass tests in the future, which will come in very handy for.... er.... for.... I don't know, which job requires you to pass tests?

All of them .

Even if they did, this only measures one type of testing skill.

 

[regent]

As if public education is a "good education."

What a crock.

Even public education is a threat to conservatives.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.





"Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman

Wow! Truman was so spot on! If only we'd spend tens of trillion of dollars in government programs, we'd have no poverty or illiteracy!

If only!

We spend MORE per student than any other nation on the planet and fully 2/3 of Democrat City "Graduates" can't read at grade level; their only still is to apply for EBT Card and vote Democrat

 

[regent]

What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.





"Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman

Wow! Truman was so spot on! If only we'd spend tens of trillion of dollars in government programs, we'd have no poverty or illiteracy!

If only!

We spend MORE per student than any other nation on the planet and fully 2/3 of Democrat City "Graduates" can't read at grade level; their only still is to apply for EBT Card and vote Democrat

Do we spend all that money equally?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.





"Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman

Wow! Truman was so spot on! If only we'd spend tens of trillion of dollars in government programs, we'd have no poverty or illiteracy!

If only!

We spend MORE per student than any other nation on the planet and fully 2/3 of Democrat City "Graduates" can't read at grade level; their only still is to apply for EBT Card and vote Democrat

Do we spend all that money equally?

Clearly, we spend more on Asian and ESL kids because they always score better than Democrat city blacks, even when they all live in the same city and go to the exact same schools

 

[regent]

What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.





"Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman

Wow! Truman was so spot on! If only we'd spend tens of trillion of dollars in government programs, we'd have no poverty or illiteracy!

If only!

We spend MORE per student than any other nation on the planet and fully 2/3 of Democrat City "Graduates" can't read at grade level; their only still is to apply for EBT Card and vote Democrat

Do we spend all that money equally?

Clearly, we spend more on Asian and ESL kids because they always score better than Democrat city blacks, even when they all live in the same city and go to the exact same schools

Should the same amount of money be spent on each American student's education?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.





"Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman

Wow! Truman was so spot on! If only we'd spend tens of trillion of dollars in government programs, we'd have no poverty or illiteracy!

If only!

We spend MORE per student than any other nation on the planet and fully 2/3 of Democrat City "Graduates" can't read at grade level; their only still is to apply for EBT Card and vote Democrat

Do we spend all that money equally?

Clearly, we spend more on Asian and ESL kids because they always score better than Democrat city blacks, even when they all live in the same city and go to the exact same schools

Should the same amount of money be spent on each American student's education?

One more time: we already spend more per student than any other nation on the planet. Is that hard for you to understand?

Our kids have math and reading scores that are a fucking embarrassment. Progressives have made our schools Democrat Voter Manufacturing Plants: kids can't read or write and all they think about is spending thier lives doing nothing but collecting government money and voting Democrat

 

[saveliberty]

Funny the best example of a successful AMERICAN education system is the Hillsdale Academy. It distributes its plan nationwide. In a small rural setting it has produced a number of National Merit Scholars and very high test scores by stressing traditional subjects including Latin.

That's what we need, lots of students who can pass tests, because then they'll have the skills needed to pass tests in the future, which will come in very handy for.... er.... for.... I don't know, which job requires you to pass tests?

All of them .

Even if they did, this only measures one type of testing skill.

They are successful by whatever test you wish to use. Employment, college attendance and graduation, outstanding human beings...

 

[regent]

What do some people see the world positively and others through an ideology filter that blocks commonsense. It would seem an excellent public education a value worth paying for and yet many feel threatened by knowledge. Fear buys bombs, why doesn't fear of an uneducated public also cause concern. Totalitarian nations control educational access for a reason. Educational neglect has the same effect.





"Republicans [and others] approve of the American farmer, but they are willing to help him go broke. They stand four-square for the American home -but not for housing. They are strong for labor - but they are stronger for restricting labor's rights. They favor minimum wage - the smaller the minimum wage the better. They endorse educational opportunity for all - but they won't spend money for teachers or for schools. They think modern medical care and hospitals are fine - for people who can afford them. They consider electrical power a great blessing - but only when the private power companies get their rake-off. They think American standard of living is a fine thing - so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it." Harry S. Truman

Wow! Truman was so spot on! If only we'd spend tens of trillion of dollars in government programs, we'd have no poverty or illiteracy!

If only!

We spend MORE per student than any other nation on the planet and fully 2/3 of Democrat City "Graduates" can't read at grade level; their only still is to apply for EBT Card and vote Democrat

Do we spend all that money equally?

Clearly, we spend more on Asian and ESL kids because they always score better than Democrat city blacks, even when they all live in the same city and go to the exact same schools

Should the same amount of money be spent on each American student's education?

One more time: we already spend more per student than any other nation on the planet. Is that hard for you to understand?

Our kids have math and reading scores that are a fucking embarrassment. Progressives have made our schools Democrat Voter Manufacturing Plants: kids can't read or write and all they think about is spending thier lives doing nothing but collecting government money and voting Democrat

Would we have public education if not for the progressives? I wonder if that is what kids think about collecting government money and voting Democratic?
The question was, however, should the same amount of money be spent on each American student's education?

 

[DGS49]

The worst thing ever to happen to public education was the granting by Democrat politicians of the right to "organize" and the right to strike. There is nothing else that even comes close.

Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing. They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it. They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.

Teacher compensation, in total, is breathtaking in most large Eastern school districts. When you add the salaries, benefits, and the cost of ludicrously early retirement (with fully paid hospitalization), teachers make, in effect a couple hundred thousand dollars for every work year (i.e., 2000 hours) that they are employed.

In my own public school district, where more than half of the teachers are earning six figures, and they pay NOTHING toward their own retirement (after 30 years, most at age 55 or earlier), and $28 per month for hospitalization that would make anyone in the private sector envious. And of course it was only after YEARS of begging that the unions agreed to pay this pittance for their insurance - complaining all the while.

And as said above, the bizarre thing about the relationship between Democrats and the Unions is that Democrats constantly admit that public school education sucks, and that only more money can help it, but it never really comes out that it sucks because Democrat policies have prevailed for the past 50 years.

 

[Unkotare]

....

Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing. They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it. They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.....

That is not true.

 

[Disir]

Funny the best example of a successful AMERICAN education system is the Hillsdale Academy. It distributes its plan nationwide. In a small rural setting it has produced a number of National Merit Scholars and very high test scores by stressing traditional subjects including Latin.

That's what we need, lots of students who can pass tests, because then they'll have the skills needed to pass tests in the future, which will come in very handy for.... er.... for.... I don't know, which job requires you to pass tests?

All of them .

Even if they did, this only measures one type of testing skill.

They are successful by whatever test you wish to use. Employment, college attendance and graduation, outstanding human beings...

They are not.

 

[initforme]

My kids all had high quality public educations. All 4 are very successful. What american parents want is for schools to fix their kids deficiencies and shortfalls caused by a messed up home life. School is a place to drop off ones kids so I don't have to deal with them. Anyone who complains teachers have it so good should forfeit their earning potential and become a teacher. But those people could never handle the job. Today's kids come in unmotivated and the second a teacher tries to discipline or challenge them the parents are on the phone complaining. Our public school system has a 98 percent graduation rate and a 80 percent post grad placement rate. I can't remember the last time a kid joined the military here or hung around doing nothing. We have it good and our private schools struggle to compete. It depends where one lives I guess.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The worst thing ever to happen to public education was the granting by Democrat politicians of the right to "organize" and the right to strike. There is nothing else that even comes close.

Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing. They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it. They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.

Teacher compensation, in total, is breathtaking in most large Eastern school districts. When you add the salaries, benefits, and the cost of ludicrously early retirement (with fully paid hospitalization), teachers make, in effect a couple hundred thousand dollars for every work year (i.e., 2000 hours) that they are employed.

In my own public school district, where more than half of the teachers are earning six figures, and they pay NOTHING toward their own retirement (after 30 years, most at age 55 or earlier), and $28 per month for hospitalization that would make anyone in the private sector envious. And of course it was only after YEARS of begging that the unions agreed to pay this pittance for their insurance - complaining all the while.

And as said above, the bizarre thing about the relationship between Democrats and the Unions is that Democrats constantly admit that public school education sucks, and that only more money can help it, but it never really comes out that it sucks because Democrat policies have prevailed for the past 50 years.

You might to go back and eliminate all of the lies you just told. Instead of talking about your limited exposure to schools, how about you learn how MOST schools operate?

 

[mgh80]

The worst thing ever to happen to public education was the granting by Democrat politicians of the right to "organize" and the right to strike. There is nothing else that even comes close.

Unionized teachers cannot be compelled to do anything they don't feel like doing. They cannot be meaningfully evaluated on the quantitative measure of the success of their students because the unions won't permit it. They can never be fired for incompetence or non-performance because the unions have made the process so difficult that administrators just give up and allow the poor teachers to remain.

Teacher compensation, in total, is breathtaking in most large Eastern school districts. When you add the salaries, benefits, and the cost of ludicrously early retirement (with fully paid hospitalization), teachers make, in effect a couple hundred thousand dollars for every work year (i.e., 2000 hours) that they are employed.

In my own public school district, where more than half of the teachers are earning six figures, and they pay NOTHING toward their own retirement (after 30 years, most at age 55 or earlier), and $28 per month for hospitalization that would make anyone in the private sector envious. And of course it was only after YEARS of begging that the unions agreed to pay this pittance for their insurance - complaining all the while.

And as said above, the bizarre thing about the relationship between Democrats and the Unions is that Democrats constantly admit that public school education sucks, and that only more money can help it, but it never really comes out that it sucks because Democrat policies have prevailed for the past 50 years.

You are wrong.

-I'm in a teacher union (admittedly only because they'll get me a lawyer in case I face any frivolous lawsuits), and I get evaluated by my principal, APs, district employees, and my student test scores. All of which (sans the test scores) are pubic record. Any parent/guardian of any of my 150 students can look up my evaluation scores tonight in a few short minutes.

-Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year...NOT "hundreds of thousands"...and my district is one of the highest paying in my region.

-I pay toward my retirement in every pay check I earn, as it's put into the retirement system.

-Every single person in my district when they're attending school has the opportunity to one become a teacher. Nothing is holding them back.

I understand that there are crappy teachers-I promise you I know this much more than you do. I also promise you there's great teachers out there who are right now at this very second planning their lessons for next week, grading essays/tests, evaluating their student's work, etc.

I'm not sure what district you live in, but what you said does NOT apply to mine.

 

[Unkotare]

... many feel threatened by knowledge. ...

Who, exactly?

 

[DGS49]

Just one point among many..."Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year."

OK, let's start there. If your school district is typical, there is an incremental pay increase every year, plus a union-negotiated "cost of living" increase, which combine to equal roughly 4%. This comes regardless of performance, and you might notice that in the Real World, nobody is getting 4% increases in the same job, year after year. You will probably get an increase when you get your permanent teaching certificate, and if you get a Masters, that also brings an increase. But universities frequently provide Masters Degrees in "education" or "counseling" that require only a few courses beyond what is required for a permanent certificate, so that it makes no sense not to go ahead and get that Masters Degree. But from what I have seen, those are bullshit degrees, with no thesis or comprehensive testing required, as are necessary for almost all Masters Degrees outside education.

Then, if your school district is typical, there is a "jump step" at around 10 years service, bringing a one-time increase of 40-50%. NOBODY in the real world get this without a SIGNIFICANT promotion. But you haven't been promoted; you have no more responsibility than you did the day after you got hired.

The annual and union raises continue to trickle in, regardless of performance, so that you normally see annual increases of at least 2X the actual cost of living increase. And you CANNOT GET FIRED unless you are guilty of some egregious offense. Non-performance is met with additional training or monitoring, but your livelihood is never threatened.

Then you can retire after 30 or so years on the job. If you get your first job in your early 20's - as most teachers do - then this makes retirement at, say, 55 typical. Which means you are RETIRED AND DRAWING FULL BENEFITS for more than 10 years by the time your contemporaries in the real world are able to retire. And your retirement is not a 401k plan plus SS, it is a fully-paid, defined benefit plan that can never be threatened, no matter what happens to the stock market, or even if the School District goes bankrupt. The bottom line is that, for 30 years of working 75% of the year, you are compensated for the day you are hired until the day you die, including a package of benefits that is the envy of anyone actually holding down a real job in the private sector. Given typical lifespans today, you are paid for 55 years for working what can generously be considered 30 years.

And don't give me any of that bullshit about having to do lesson plans and whatnot in the Summer. Most "professionals" in our world have to work many, many hours of overtime; they have to travel regularly, including overnight stays in god-forsaken locations, and their job is on the line each and every day they come into work...and it's not only based on their own performance. And teachers don't have to contend with any of this. And most professionals in the private sector lose at least a couple jobs in their career due to bankruptcies, mergers, acquisitions, or just because their new boss got a bug up his ass and decided to "shake things up." There is no guarantee that you will find an equal job after you lose the one you have. In today's world, you often end up with something much lower on the career ladder.

Depending on where you are teaching, it can be difficult. A couple generations ago, teachers' pay was a joke, and people occasionally made financial sacrifices in order to lead the life of a public school teacher. But that is no longer the case. Which is why the better school districts get 50 or more applications for every teaching job that comes up, and attrition is basically non-existent. Who would ever give up the gravy train?

 

[Unkotare]

Just one point among many..."Starting salary for instructional positions in my district is $38K a year."

OK, let's start there. If your school district is typical, there is an incremental pay increase every year, plus a union-negotiated "cost of living" increase, which combine to equal roughly 4%. This comes regardless of performance, and you might notice that in the Real World, nobody is getting 4% increases in the same job, year after year. You will probably get an increase when you get your permanent teaching certificate, and if you get a Masters, that also brings an increase. But universities frequently provide Masters Degrees in "education" or "counseling" that require only a few courses beyond what is required for a permanent certificate, so that it makes no sense not to go ahead and get that Masters Degree. But from what I have seen, those are bullshit degrees, with no thesis or comprehensive testing required, as are necessary for almost all Masters Degrees outside education.

Then, if your school district is typical, there is a "jump step" at around 10 years service, bringing a one-time increase of 40-50%. NOBODY in the real world get this without a SIGNIFICANT promotion. But you haven't been promoted; you have no more responsibility than you did the day after you got hired.

The annual and union raises continue to trickle in, regardless of performance, so that you normally see annual increases of at least 2X the actual cost of living increase. And you CANNOT GET FIRED unless you are guilty of some egregious offense. Non-performance is met with additional training or monitoring, but your livelihood is never threatened.

Then you can retire after 30 or so years on the job. If you get your first job in your early 20's - as most teachers do - then this makes retirement at, say, 55 typical. Which means you are RETIRED AND DRAWING FULL BENEFITS for more than 10 years by the time your contemporaries in the real world are able to retire. And your retirement is not a 401k plan plus SS, it is a fully-paid, defined benefit plan that can never be threatened, no matter what happens to the stock market, or even if the School District goes bankrupt. The bottom line is that, for 30 years of working 75% of the year, you are compensated for the day you are hired until the day you die, including a package of benefits that is the envy of anyone actually holding down a real job in the private sector. Given typical lifespans today, you are paid for 55 years for working what can generously be considered 30 years.

And don't give me any of that bullshit about having to do lesson plans and whatnot in the Summer. Most "professionals" in our world have to work many, many hours of overtime; they have to travel regularly, including overnight stays in god-forsaken locations, and their job is on the line each and every day they come into work...and it's not only based on their own performance. And teachers don't have to contend with any of this. And most professionals in the private sector lose at least a couple jobs in their career due to bankruptcies, mergers, acquisitions, or just because their new boss got a bug up his ass and decided to "shake things up." There is no guarantee that you will find an equal job after you lose the one you have. In today's world, you often end up with something much lower on the career ladder.

Depending on where you are teaching, it can be difficult. A couple generations ago, teachers' pay was a joke, and people occasionally made financial sacrifices in order to lead the life of a public school teacher. But that is no longer the case. Which is why the better school districts get 50 or more applications for every teaching job that comes up, and attrition is basically non-existent. Who would ever give up the gravy train?

A lot of talk. Ever done it?

 

[DGS49]

One does not have to be a teacher to obtain and read the local teachers' union contract, or to review the school district's budget. For some reason, a large percentage of my contemporaries went into teaching; maybe it was due to the permanent Draft deferment. Regardless, I have been associating with public school teachers for my entire life, and I watched over the years as Teacher went from a mediocre job that attracted people who were too lame to find a good job in the real world, to a relative sinecure.

Would I want to do it? No, but what does that prove? I wouldn't want to be a truck driver either.