Educate the LayPeople

[Fraulein Hilda]

I still can't get an adequate explanation as to why the assumption is automatic that the test was flawed vs.. the people who failed did not study? that's why black lawyers pass the bar and why black physicians pass the boards,, they prepare and they study,, and they do it,, right along with the white guy! do they not?

Any "protected class" that fails constitutes a necessary and sufficient condition for the test to be flawed.

I'm guessing you don't belong to such protected classes and would not know that.

 

[Ravi]

so do black lawyers take the same bar exam??


do black physicians take the same boards??


why should firefighters be any different?? doyathink?

Doctors and lawyers are tested on very narrowly focused knowledge after years of education directed toward the end result. The same thing cannot be said about firefighters or even supervisory roles, which was the case in this instance.

how are firefighters not narrowly focused?

They don't require years of college or any test beyond physical ability and basic common sense. But keep fishing.

 

[jgbkab]

I think basically what this means is that you apply and test for a job stacking cans on a shelf. The test consisted of stacking sugar, cans, apples, and fish. Your jobs only requires you to stack cans but the test had questions that you would have no idea about because you studied to stack cans. You guess on the questions stacking fish, sugar, and apples and didn't do too well. The store owner says the test is flawed because you need a test on your section of the store and not other departments because you won't be working in those departments. Am I even close?

 

[WillowTree]

would it be more fair to have just tests that are essay questions???

Depends on what you're trying to assess.

nothing that I know of proves knowledge of a subject better than an essay question.. no guessing no guessing,,

 

[WillowTree]

I think basically what this means is that you apply and test for a job stacking cans on a shelf. The test consisted of stacking sugar, cans, apples, and fish. Your jobs only requires you to stack cans but the test had questions that you would have no idea about because you studied to stack cans. You guess on the questions stacking fish, sugar, and apples and didn't do too well. The store owner says the test is flawed because you need a test on your section of the store and not other departments because you won't be working in those departments. Am I even close?

could be! that's why it would be helpful to see what the questions on the test were.

 

[jgbkab]

I think basically what this means is that you apply and test for a job stacking cans on a shelf. The test consisted of stacking sugar, cans, apples, and fish. Your jobs only requires you to stack cans but the test had questions that you would have no idea about because you studied to stack cans. You guess on the questions stacking fish, sugar, and apples and didn't do too well. The store owner says the test is flawed because you need a test on your section of the store and not other departments because you won't be working in those departments. Am I even close?

could be! that's why it would be helpful to see what the questions on the test were.

Well, if the questions didn't have fire, cat, calendar or water in them, I probably wouldn't know if they were relevant questions or not.

 

[WillowTree]

Doctors and lawyers are tested on very narrowly focused knowledge after years of education directed toward the end result. The same thing cannot be said about firefighters or even supervisory roles, which was the case in this instance.

how are firefighters not narrowly focused?

They don't require years of college or any test beyond physical ability and basic common sense. But keep fishing.

I think you are wrong.. firefighters go through some pretty tough rigorous training,, lots of procedures and knowledge of how a fire burns how fast how hot,, it's way beyond physical ability,, you sell them short..

 

[WillowTree]

I think basically what this means is that you apply and test for a job stacking cans on a shelf. The test consisted of stacking sugar, cans, apples, and fish. Your jobs only requires you to stack cans but the test had questions that you would have no idea about because you studied to stack cans. You guess on the questions stacking fish, sugar, and apples and didn't do too well. The store owner says the test is flawed because you need a test on your section of the store and not other departments because you won't be working in those departments. Am I even close?

could be! that's why it would be helpful to see what the questions on the test were.

Well, if the questions didn't have fire, cat, calendar or water in them, I probably wouldn't know if they were relevant questions or not.

but firefighters would know!

 

[Ravi]

how are firefighters not narrowly focused?

They don't require years of college or any test beyond physical ability and basic common sense. But keep fishing.

I think you are wrong.. firefighters go through some pretty tough rigorous training,, lots of procedures and knowledge of how a fire burns how fast how hot,, it's way beyond physical ability,, you sell them short..

I doubt it, Willow...I have a couple in my family. Most promotions are given on performance and suitability for the job.

The promotion is question was a supervisory roll...kind of hard to pick from a bubble test.

 

[WillowTree]

What it Takes to Be a Firefighter - Associated Content

 

[Vel]

See if this helps:

Tech.. I do understand the premise of the statute. What I find flawed is the assumption that if minorities don't pass the test, then the test itself must be flawed. Who is to say that the minorities didn't choose to not prepare for the test, knowing that their failure would result in an easier exam? While I doubt that to be the case, it's just as likely as the fact that minorities that live and are educated in the same society as white people are all somehow suddenly unable to comprehend the written word and must have "table models" in order to show their knowledge.

How exactly did the minorities know that their failure would result in an easier exam? (Which in fact they couldn't "know" since it didn't happen).

The claim isn't that "minorities can't comprehend the written word". Its that the written word can be interpreted differently by people of different races. Hence when there are black and white multiple choice answers, those who have systematic interpretations closer to the makers of the test, have an advantage.

And just because we are all educated in the same society, we have similar educations? Thats an odd viewpoint to have.

Perhaps you can explain why you think that those educated in the same society are going to have different educations? Do the teachers in New Haven ask the minority children to leave the room before they begin the reading lessons? They don't do that here, but who knows what happens in Connecticut. It certainly seems to me that those minorities that attended the same public schools, with the same books, the same teachers that the white people in their town attended ought to have a similar education. Especially since New Haven is not that large a town. I think you're making excuses or you really have the opinion that minorities aren't as intelligent as white people.

 

[jgbkab]

could be! that's why it would be helpful to see what the questions on the test were.

Well, if the questions didn't have fire, cat, calendar or water in them, I probably wouldn't know if they were relevant questions or not.

but firefighters would know!

I think that was part of the problem. Firefighters would know but which ones from which parts of the country.

 

[WillowTree]

Well, if the questions didn't have fire, cat, calendar or water in them, I probably wouldn't know if they were relevant questions or not.

but firefighters would know!

I think that was part of the problem. Firefighters would know but which ones from which parts of the country.

they weren't taking a national test.. it was a city test.

 

[Diuretic]

would it be more fair to have just tests that are essay questions???

Depends on what you're trying to assess.

nothing that I know of proves knowledge of a subject better than an essay question.. no guessing no guessing,,

I'd disagree. A combination of objective test items and essay items would be better, if you were assessing knowledge only. True to write a good essay you need familiarity with the subject but essays aren't used primarily for that. An objective test array will find out the level of knowledge of a topic though.

 

[jgbkab]

but firefighters would know!

I think that was part of the problem. Firefighters would know but which ones from which parts of the country.

they weren't taking a national test.. it was a city test.

In the article it stated that one of the questions on the test was for NYC firefighters and would be irrelevant to New Haven.

 

[WillowTree]

Tech.. I do understand the premise of the statute. What I find flawed is the assumption that if minorities don't pass the test, then the test itself must be flawed. Who is to say that the minorities didn't choose to not prepare for the test, knowing that their failure would result in an easier exam? While I doubt that to be the case, it's just as likely as the fact that minorities that live and are educated in the same society as white people are all somehow suddenly unable to comprehend the written word and must have "table models" in order to show their knowledge.

How exactly did the minorities know that their failure would result in an easier exam? (Which in fact they couldn't "know" since it didn't happen).

The claim isn't that "minorities can't comprehend the written word". Its that the written word can be interpreted differently by people of different races. Hence when there are black and white multiple choice answers, those who have systematic interpretations closer to the makers of the test, have an advantage.

And just because we are all educated in the same society, we have similar educations? Thats an odd viewpoint to have.

Perhaps you can explain why you think that those educated in the same society are going to have different educations? Do the teachers in New Haven ask the minority children to leave the room before they begin the reading lessons? They don't do that here, but who knows what happens in Connecticut. It certainly seems to me that those minorities that attended the same public schools, with the same books, the same teachers that the white people in their town attended ought to have a similar education. Especially since New Haven is not that large a town. I think you're making excuses or you really have the opinion that minorities aren't as intelligent as white people.

they cannot make the argument that whites are more intelligent than black people. They can try but it does not wash.. blacks take the same bar and boards,,as do their white counterparts.. that is why this case puzzles me so.

 

[Nik]

The point is to figure out who is qualified.

Not if the results will be set aside you won't.

see? it really makes no sense whatsoever that a black man can pass the same bar or board,, and not pass a firefighter test,, and when he does "it's racist" no sense whatsoever.. none

Some tests are racist....some aren't. Wow...that was really difficult to explain.

 

[WillowTree]

Not if the results will be set aside you won't.

see? it really makes no sense whatsoever that a black man can pass the same bar or board,, and not pass a firefighter test,, and when he does "it's racist" no sense whatsoever.. none

Some tests are racist....some aren't. Wow...that was really difficult to explain.

seems it is,, cause so far you have failed to explain how this test is racist.. matter of fact you said "I don't know."

 

[Nik]

see? it really makes no sense whatsoever that a black man can pass the same bar or board,, and not pass a firefighter test,, and when he does "it's racist" no sense whatsoever.. none

Some tests are racist....some aren't. Wow...that was really difficult to explain.

seems it is,, cause so far you have failed to explain how this test is racist.. matter of fact you said "I don't know."

Please list for me all the reasons why blacks might do worse than whites in a given area.

If you can't, then how do you expect me to know exactly what makes the test racist? I don't know everything that makes it racist, I just know the end result is a racist one. Could it be something else? Sure. But the odds of that are slim. Maybe you haven't noticed, but we have a history of racism in this country.

 

[WillowTree]

Some tests are racist....some aren't. Wow...that was really difficult to explain.

seems it is,, cause so far you have failed to explain how this test is racist.. matter of fact you said "I don't know."

Please list for me all the reasons why blacks might do worse than whites in a given area.

If you can't, then how do you expect me to know exactly what makes the test racist? I don't know everything that makes it racist, I just know the end result is a racist one. Could it be something else? Sure. But the odds of that are slim. Maybe you haven't noticed, but we have a history of racism in this country.

because you are the one insisting the test is racist.. seems like you should know why! that's just makes sense..