Eastern European views of Russian invasion of Ukraine, Elections in October in Poland & Slovakia

[toomuchtime_]

Ukraine is not running the show, America is with their Nato goons, this is a Nato war against Russia, so far it's the Ukrainians who are dying for Nato, you just don't get it, Russia will not lose it can't afford to or Russia is finished, the Americans and Nato can just walk away like they have many times before.

Only two countries are fighting, Ukraine and Russia. While Ukraine gets very substantial aid from its many allies, it is clear the Ukraine is planning and eructing its own strategies even when their allies disagree with them.

Again, there is no rational basis for believing anything that happened in Ukraine would have led to an attack on Russia, so the Russian invasion of Ukraine was never about protecting Russia's security but only about Putin's ambition to colonize Ukraine. When Russia leaves Ukraine no one will follow it and try to invade Russia.

As you suggest, Putin's only hope of not being driven out of Ukraine, is for Ukraine's allies to abandon it, but there again is no rational basis for believing that will happen.

 

[AlexanderPK]

That is the great myth and problem of imperial Russian culture: Nothing is ever Russia’s fault. Russia was always innocent, always helping all the more “backward” people. But despite its sacrifices and great “soul,” the West or the Mongols or the Turks and now even the Ukrainians have always attacked Mother Russia and disrespected its Czars. All who disagree are bought-off puppets of evil foreigners … or “Nazis.”

Meaning they all used to come bearing gifts but we indiscriminately mistook them for invaders, right? Why did you leave out the Germans? Didn't we unleash the war and do an injustice to the well meaning Germany? Isn't the Canadian parliament not batting an eye hailing the SS "warrior" a good enough proof of that? I wonder why they didn't salute him Hitler stile?

 

[ESay]

It is not correct to narrow this issue to East Europe only. In various parts of Europe right-wing or 'nationalistic' parties or candidates gained their share of support. Italy, France, Greece, just to name a few. In that list the UK can be included with their Brexit campaign.

Also, the US has similar tendency where a 'ring-wing' faction of the Republican party becomes louder with every electoral cycle.

The reason of this is obvious - ineffectiveness and corruption of mainstream politicians, hardships in the economy, migration crisis etc.

The European Union is the best thing that happened to Europe in generations. Ironically, one of the fiercest critics of the Union come form Eastern Europe - the main beneficiary out of the membership.

Can the EU fell apart or lose significant chunks? Of course it can. It will resemble the Brexit on steroids. That started as 'a great idea' but ended up as a farce.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Meaning they all used to come bearing gifts but we indiscriminately mistook them for invaders, right? Why did you leave out the Germans? Didn't we unleash the war and do an injustice to the well meaning Germany? Isn't the Canadian parliament not batting an eye hailing the SS "warrior" a good enough proof of that? I wonder why they didn't salute him Hitler stile?

What nonsense you write. Do you think I supported invading Nazis from the West or Mongols from the East?!

Again you show that you aren’t interested in a serious discussion at all and have nothing to add besides paranoia and fever dreams. You are not defending Russia by attacking and laying waste to Ukraine. Putin was simply resorting to the same sort of imperial conduct that the old Czars and Stalin resorted to in the past. Putin tried even to deny that an authentic Ukrainian nation existed. You think you are defending Russia by invading Ukraine?

So long as you cannot even conceive of the concept of “Russian imperialism” — either under the Czars or under Stalin or Putin, you will find yourself defending the indefensible. “Holy Russia,” like “Red Russia,” took over many lands where the natives today see their own history very differently than do you. In many of those cases they have shown they will fight Russian chauvinism and control.

I do not want to break up the Russian Federation. Most of the major nations that were forced to remain imprisoned under Czarist or the USSR’s control have already broken away, as have of course those in the old Warsaw Pact. Much of that happened without too much violence when Russia abandoned its collectivized economy.

The idea of “Socialism,” bastardized by Stalin as “Socialism in One [huge backward] Country” actually served for several generations as a genuine threat to Western-style capitalist imperialism … and an inspiration for many more or less naive anti-imperialists in the West.

Today, however, Russia is poor, corrupt, dictatorial, and lacks basic political & free speech rights that we Westerners all take for granted.

It amazes me that U.S. popular disgruntlement with our own inegalitarian and unfair system has produced some sympathy for such a horrible authoritarian system as Russia’s. But then Donald Trump, the U.S. cult leader of the Republican Party, has always been especially enamored with strong man authoritarians — which goes a long way in explaining at least this factor.

Today Russia is a declining — but still huge — dictatorship of central and local “siloviki” with a declining population and a class of mafia-like capitalist oligarchs, many of whom are now themselves being purged as the state tries to rebuild its centralized war economy at the cost of everything else.

Russia cannot revitalize itself as a civilization in this way, even if it gets more support from China, North Korea, and Iran. Perhaps with their help and by mobilizing local warlords, far-flung minorities, prisoners and ever more mercenary types, Russia can somehow still ultimately “succeed” in devastating much of Ukraine.

A lot depends on whether Russia can exploit normal class and other divisions found in most free, richer, more-or-less democratic Western countries, where there are serious economic and social problems. I doubt it, but it is possible Ukraine will “lose” this war.

But what would Russian civilization really gain in this way? What have they really gained under Putin’s 24 years of one-man rule? Who will take over after him?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The full returns of yesterday’s Slovak election shows a victory for the “peace” or “pro-Russian” SMER party, which however still only won 22.9% of the vote and will have to build a coalition government, probably with some very right-wing elements.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/01/world/slovakia-election-pro-russia-robert-fico-win-intl-hnk/index.html

SMER is a populist “Social-Democratic” party, which is very conservative on social issues and whose main leader is Robert Fico, who started his political life as a young Communist but moved quickly toward populism and social democracy as the Iron Curtain came down and Czechoslovakia divided into the more developed Czech Republic (including Prague) and the rather more rural, traditional & agricultural Slovakia. Though Fico has spoken strongly against NATO’s support for Ukraine, and against U.S. policy there, he has shown no support for leaving the alliance or for refusing to allow other nations to transfer arms through his country to Ukraine.

 

[AlexanderPK]

What nonsense you write. Do you think I supported invading Nazis from the West or Mongols from the East?!

Again you show that you aren’t interested in a serious discussion at all and have nothing to add besides paranoia and fever dreams. You are not defending Russia by attacking and laying waste to Ukraine. Putin was simply resorting to the same sort of imperial conduct that the old Czars and Stalin resorted to in the past. Putin tried even to deny that an authentic Ukrainian nation existed. You think you are defending Russia by invading Ukraine?

So long as you cannot even conceive of the concept of “Russian imperialism” — either under the Czars or under Stalin or Putin, you will find yourself defending the indefensible. “Holy Russia,” like “Red Russia,” took over many lands where the natives today see their own history very differently than do you. In many of those cases they have shown they will fight Russian chauvinism and control.

I do not want to break up the Russian Federation. Most of the major nations that were forced to remain imprisoned under Czarist or the USSR’s control have already broken away, as have of course those in the old Warsaw Pact. Much of that happened without too much violence when Russia abandoned its collectivized economy.

The idea of “Socialism,” bastardized by Stalin as “Socialism in One [huge backward] Country” actually served for several generations as a genuine threat to Western-style capitalist imperialism … and an inspiration for many more or less naive anti-imperialists in the West.

Today, however, Russia is poor, corrupt, dictatorial, and lacks basic political & free speech rights that we Westerners all take for granted.

It amazes me that U.S. popular disgruntlement with our own inegalitarian and unfair system has produced some sympathy for such a horrible authoritarian system as Russia’s. But then Donald Trump, the U.S. cult leader of the Republican Party, has always been especially enamored with strong man authoritarians — which goes a long way in explaining at least this factor.

Today Russia is a declining — but still huge — dictatorship of central and local “siloviki” with a declining population and a class of mafia-like capitalist oligarchs, many of whom are now themselves being purged as the state tries to rebuild its centralized war economy at the cost of everything else.

Russia cannot revitalize itself as a civilization in this way, even if it gets more support from China, North Korea, and Iran. Perhaps with their help and by mobilizing local warlords, far-flung minorities, prisoners and ever more mercenary types, Russia can somehow still ultimately “succeed” in devastating much of Ukraine.

A lot depends on whether Russia can exploit normal class and other divisions found in most free, richer, more-or-less democratic Western countries, where there are serious economic and social problems. I doubt it, but it is possible Ukraine will “lose” this war.

But what would Russian civilization really gain in this way? What have they really gained under Putin’s 24 years of one-man rule? Who will take over after him?

Same old MSM tropes: traditionally we're painted black, you're all fluffy and white, Putin is a dictator and the root of all evil. What's a dictator by the way since you love that word so much? How can I feel dictatorship influencing my life? Are there any secrets of detecting it, for I've lived all my life having apparently been subjected to it and never knew I was?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The recent election in Poland has dealt a huge blow to the Conservative authoritarian Law and Justice Party — ruling since 2015 — and set the stage for a new more reformist pro-EU government.

The election change was dramatic and had a massive and unprecedented turnout. It was a stunning and rare defeat for populist authoritarian drift in Europe. In many ways it was also a defeat for the Catholic Church, a victory for youth and women, a defeat for Putin and a victory for pro-Ukrainian forces.

But the old ruling PIS will still have control of many institutions, like the Presidency (for two more years), the courts, etc., and the new coalition will have to work out internal differences if it is to run an effective and durable government with Tusk probably as leader at the helm.

Opinion: Warsaw Insider: Nationalist Right Loses in Poland – What Next?

The political tide in Poland has changed, so what does this signify?

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