Zone1 Early Christians believed that the bread and wine used in the Eucharist were transformed into the body and blood of Christ

[hadit]

That is your belief. Take a look in Acts. Whose shadow did the people want to fall over those who were ailing?

Those who were given the power to heal and who were healing many, of course, just like the woman had faith that she would be healed if she could just touch Jesus' robe. That does not justify the invention of a whole new priesthood.

Now, if you use this to justify the Catholic priesthood, why are not Catholic priests known for mass healing like the Apostles were known? They have, according to you, the power to compel Jesus to submit His body and blood for sacrifice again as well as forgive or withhold forgiveness of sin. Jesus Himself made the case that the power to forgive sin was greater than the power to heal, then proceeded to demonstrate that He had both the greater and lesser power, yet we're supposed to accept that priests have the greater power and not the lesser?

 

[Meriweather]

That's like saying the Baptists are fine with everyone, as long as they're Baptist.

I haven't a doubt that Baptists would welcome me if I wanted to become Baptist.

 

[hadit]

I haven't a doubt that Baptists would welcome me if I wanted to become Baptist.

They would also welcome you in their services and share communion with you if you remained a Catholic. That's the difference.

 

[Meriweather]

Communion is for all believers who wish to commemorate Jesus' sacrifice of His body and blood, not force Him to sacrifice it all over again.

Catholics see it as that--and something much greater. A commemoration is not forcing anyone to do it "all over again". What it offers is an opportunity to enter into the ongoing participation of the events in Jesus' life. It's worship.

 

[Meriweather]

When Scripture says we all are a royal priesthood, how do you interpret it to come up with a "special" priesthood that you endow with special powers and privileges? This is what I'm talking about, pulling certain ideas out in isolation and making whole new theologies out of them.

Were the Twelve Apostles nothing more than disciples? They had no other purpose than any other disciple?

 

[hadit]

Catholics see it as that--and something much greater. A commemoration is not forcing anyone to do it "all over again". What it offers is an opportunity to enter into the ongoing participation of the events in Jesus' life. It's worship.

Wait, don't Catholics believe the Eucharist is an actual sacrifice? If so, is not the priest compelling Jesus to AGAIN offer His body and blood for sacrifice? That's complete, over and done. There is no more sacrifice.

 

[Meriweather]

Those who were given the power to heal and who were healing many, of course, just like the woman had faith that she would be healed if she could just touch Jesus' robe. That does not justify the invention of a whole new priesthood.

Now, if you use this to justify the Catholic priesthood, why are not Catholic priests known for mass healing like the Apostles were known? They have, according to you, the power to compel Jesus to submit His body and blood for sacrifice again as well as forgive or withhold forgiveness of sin. Jesus Himself made the case that the power to forgive sin was greater than the power to heal, then proceeded to demonstrate that He had both the greater and lesser power, yet we're supposed to accept that priests have the greater power and not the lesser?

I am not justifying the Catholic priesthood. I am ignoring your misinterpretation of it. Re-read your post. You change the Catholic Mass into Jesus submitting his body and blood for sacrifice again! Catch a clue. If you want to criticize Catholicism, at least get the story straight. Or...try something amusing like changing it into the story of The Poky Little Puppy.

We can't have a discussion until we are talking about the same thing. You are not talking about anything close to Catholicism.

 

[Meriweather]

They would also welcome you in their services and share communion with you if you remained a Catholic. That's the difference.

Baptists are sharing bread and wine (or grape juice) to partake. Do you believe this is what Baptists are doing?

Catholics are partaking of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. Do you believe this is what Catholics are doing?

Do you see the difference?

 

[hadit]

Were the Twelve Apostles nothing more than disciples? They had no other purpose than any other disciple?

You're asking rhetorical questions that don't address the issue at hand, which is the creation of a "special" priesthood that is not supported by Scripture. Remember that list of God's appointed authorities and gifts? Nowhere did it mention priests, just apostles, teachers, miracles, etc. In fact, opposing Catholic doctrine, the early church did not have one highest human leader, aka Pope. They had the Apostles, equal in authority and not claiming infallibility. In fact, they argued amongst themselves over doctrine. You argue a lot that your traditions go all the way back to the Apostles, yet the Apostles did not have a Pope, did not have one human leader with the greatest authority.

Now, based on the questions you're asking, it looks like you're attempting to use the Apostles and their special giftings to justify the creation of the Catholic priesthood. If that is the case, why are not Catholic priests at the highest level of Church authority? The Apostles certainly were.

 

[hadit]

I am not justifying the Catholic priesthood. I am ignoring your misinterpretation of it. Re-read your post. You change the Catholic Mass into Jesus submitting his body and blood for sacrifice again! Catch a clue. If you want to criticize Catholicism, at least get the story straight. Or...try something amusing like changing it into the story of The Poky Little Puppy.

We can't have a discussion until we are talking about the same thing. You are not talking about anything close to Catholicism.

Is the Eucharist a sacrifice?

 

[Meriweather]

Wait, don't Catholics believe the Eucharist is an actual sacrifice? If so, is not the priest compelling Jesus to AGAIN offer His body and blood for sacrifice?

The Eucharist makes present the ONE sacrifice of Christ.

 

[hadit]

The Eucharist makes present the ONE sacrifice of Christ.

I'm pressing this issue because I know the Church teaches that it is in fact a sacrifice.

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."19

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 3

According to that, every time you celebrate communion, you sacrifice the body and blood of Christ all over again.

 

[Meriweather]

You're asking rhetorical questions that don't address the issue at hand, which is the creation of a "special" priesthood that is not supported by Scripture. Remember that list of God's appointed authorities and gifts? Nowhere did it mention priests, just apostles, teachers, miracles, etc. In fact, opposing Catholic doctrine, the early church did not have one highest human leader, aka Pope. They had the Apostles, equal in authority and not claiming infallibility. In fact, they argued amongst themselves over doctrine. You argue a lot that your traditions go all the way back to the Apostles, yet the Apostles did not have a Pope, did not have one human leader with the greatest authority.

Now, based on the questions you're asking, it looks like you're attempting to use the Apostles and their special giftings to justify the creation of the Catholic priesthood. If that is the case, why are not Catholic priests at the highest level of Church authority? The Apostles certainly were.

So you think that is what I am attempting. Shrug. You're wrong, but I'm not going to waste time running through the rabbit hole you are digging.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm pressing this issue because I know the Church teaches that it is in fact a sacrifice.

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."19

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 3

According to that, every time you celebrate communion, you sacrifice the body and blood of Christ all over again.

Unbelievable. The Catechism tells you it is ONE SINGLE SACRIFICE. Yet to you that means it is happening over and over again. Can't help you. You are determined to make something into what it is not, so have at it.

 

[ding]

Is the Eucharist a sacrifice?

Not for you or anyone else who does not believe in the mystery of Christ. In communion, the "mystery of Christ" refers to the profound, multifaceted reality of Christ's presence and action in the Eucharist. It encompasses the idea that Christ is truly present in the bread and wine, that his sacrifice is made present, and that it unites believers to him and to one another. This mystery is not just a symbolic act, but a real and transformative encounter with God.

 

[hadit]

So you think that is what I am attempting. Shrug. You're wrong, but I'm not going to waste time running through the rabbit hole you are digging.

Don't give up so fast. If you didn't mean to bring the Apostles into the priest discussion, just say so.

 

[Meriweather]

Don't give up so fast. If you didn't mean to bring the Apostles into the priest discussion, just say so.

Give up? Now that's funny! I simply choose not to waste time on the ridiculous. One needs to know Apostolic scripture, tradition, and history--which you don't, and I don't have time to teach you.

 

[hadit]

Give up? Now that's funny! I simply choose not to waste time on the ridiculous. One needs to know Apostolic scripture, tradition, and history--which you don't, and I don't have time to teach you.

You call ridiculous what you apparently want to brush aside. Scripture does not support a "special" priesthood. We are ALL a royal priesthood.

 

[ding]

You call ridiculous what you apparently want to brush aside. Scripture does not support a "special" priesthood. We are ALL a royal priesthood.

That's like saying everyone is special. If everyone is special then no one is special. If everyone is a priest then no one is a priest. But if you are saying we are special because we constitute the body of Christ I would say, yes, that is a possibility but only if we choose Christ. With that said, even the ones that do not choose Christ still participate in the progression of the body of Christ in one way or another. We are all connected and the spirit of God is within everyone to some degree or another. And this would also apply to those who do choose Christ but don't always (or even most of the time) practice what Christ represented.

 

[hadit]

That's like saying everyone is special. If everyone is special then no one is special. If everyone is a priest then no one is a priest. But if you are saying we are special because we constitute the body of Christ I would say, yes, that is a possibility but only if we choose Christ. With that said, even the ones that do not choose Christ still participate in the progression of the body of Christ in one way or another. We are all connected and the spirit of God is within everyone to some degree or another. And this would also apply to those who do choose Christ but don't always (or even most of the time) practice what Christ represented.

Of course I mean that "we all" is the Body of Christ.