Drop The Chalk: Michigan Motorist Wins Appeal Over Tickets

[Dana7360]

This is interesting.

I never thought of chalking a car tire as a violation of the 4th amendment but after I read that article, I can see how it is.

The chalk is a mark by the city telling the owner of that car the city is watching them.

There needs to be probable cause for that to happen without a warrant.

Parking a car isn't a crime or probable cause of a crime.

I don't like people who stay parked in a space longer than they are allowed. I think in a lot of those causes it's just simple selfishness. In others there could be a very good reason like someone was hurt etc.

I've gotten parking tickets. I paid them and went on with my life.

This woman didn't and in some ways, I congratulate her for it. She not only stood up for herself but for everyone in Michigan and the states that appeals court oversees.

Drop the chalk: Michigan motorist wins appeal over tickets

Chalking a tire is an old-fashioned technique used by many municipalities for checking to see if a car has overstayed its time in a parking spot.

www.aol.com

 

[pknopp]

City nearby was made to stop this also.

 

[Dana7360]

City nearby was made to stop this also.

I never saw it as a violation of the fourth Amendment.

But the woman and her lawyer are right.

I hope more cities stop doing this.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Ticketing and fining someone for not wearing a mask is all based on probable cause.

*****SMILE*****

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

Meh...take a picture on a city issued device. Return later, take a second pic and issue ticket. The pictures will then be retained on file for court disputes.

 

[White 6]

I never saw it as a violation of the fourth Amendment.

But the woman and her lawyer are right.

I hope more cities stop doing this.

I see nothing wrong with this age old practice of non-destructively marking a tire of someone possible parking illegally for easy sight identification and possible ticketing later. In the long run, I doubt this defense will hold water.
In this day of digital photography, it might be more effective for the cops to simply take a digital picture of the possibly offending vehicle on the street, time/date stamped, with GPS location, but chalking a tire is not an intrusion on fourth amendment rights, in my opinion.

 

[Dana7360]

Meh...take a picture on a city issued device. Return later, take a second pic and issue ticket. The pictures will then be retained on file for court disputes.

Exactly.

 

[Dana7360]

I see nothing wrong with this age old practice of non-destructively marking a tire of someone possible parking illegally for easy sight identification and possible ticketing later. In the long run, I doubt this defense will hold water.
In this day of digital photography, it might be more effective for the cops to simply take a digital picture of the possibly offending vehicle on the street, time/date stamped, with GPS location, but chalking a tire is not an intrusion on fourth amendment rights, in my opinion.

I never thought it was a violation either.

Until I read the article.

It's not a crime to park a car so there is no probable cause that allows the government to watch a person or mark their car.

I always thought it was legal too. I don't like people who stay longer in a parking spot than the sign allows.

I thought of taking a photo too. They are on a public street so it's legal for them to take that photo.

There are cameras and radar set up to capture a person running a light or speeding.

As long as it's on the public street, the police can take the photo.

 

[MisterBeale]

"The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a ruling in favor of Saginaw and sent the case back to U.S. District Judge Thomas Ludington for the next steps. It was Taylor’s second trip to the appeals court"

Her second trip to an appellate court over parking tickets? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to just pay them, than to pay a lawyer to appeal it all the way to that level? Hell, the only thing after that is the Supreme Court. . . over parking tickets?

Of course it wouldn't be cheaper, because I am sure she has no money, and doesn't give a shit about parking in the lot down by the river and walk two blocks to old town, so her fat stoned ass parks on the street next to the cafe' all day.

I sense an ulterior agenda here.

And I was right. . . she wasn't paying for all this.

The focus on her case and the attention she’s garnered has been a surreal experience, Taylor said.


. . .“I’ve seen so many (news) stories, it’s crazy,” she said. “It’s been like whirlwind. I didn’t expect it. I never really realized how many places use this kind of system, the chalking of tires. When this all came about and I started this, I just wanted Saginaw to be different. I didn’t realize it encompasses so many other cities.”


Appeals court rules chalking tires violates Fourth Amendment
In April 2017, attorneys Philip L. Ellison and Matthew E. Gronda filed a lawsuit on behalf of Alison P. Taylor in U.S. District Court in Bay City. Named as defendants in the suit are the City of Saginaw and Tabitha Hoskins, employed as a city parking official.

Attorneys Philip L. Ellison and Matthew E. Gronda in April 2017 filed the lawsuit on Taylor’s behalf, naming the City of Saginaw and parking official Tabitha Hoskins as defendants. The suit states since 2014, Hoskins has issued Taylor 14 parking tickets — some for $15, others for $30 — primarily for allegedly exceeding the 2-hour limit on a parking spot in Old Town Saginaw in a lot where she works. Hoskins was able to tell that Taylor’s vehicles had surpassed the time limit by marking her tires with chalk, the suit alleges.. . ."

‘It’s been like a whirlwind,’ says woman of media attention after court ruling on chalking tires

"I didn’t expect it. I never really realized how many places use this kind of system, the chalking of tires."

www.mlive.com

This is the LAST thing old town needs. I used to live and work in the very community when I was her age. It had gang problems back then. . . now? It is out of control. It has half the economic activity it once had.

And now powerful forces are trying to make it even more lawless? WHY?




. . . on a side note, Judge Ludington lives a couple blocks away from my folks, I remember when he was nominated by Bush and confirmed. Nice guy.

 

[pknopp]

Wouldn't it be even cheaper to not violate people's rights?

 

[pknopp]

Marietta stops chalking parked cars

A federal court’s ruling this week has already changed parking enforcement practices in Marietta. “We’re immediately suspending chalking operations,” confirmed Marietta Police Chief Rodney Hupp on Tuesday. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the sixth district ruled Monday that chalking vehicles to...

www.mariettatimes.com

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Meh...take a picture on a city issued device. Return later, take a second pic and issue ticket. The pictures will then be retained on file for court disputes.

YOu having problems understanding?
It isn't the chalk, it is taking an action to prosecute a crime without probable cause. Taking a picture is exactly the same as the chalk or ANY method of targeting a car to see if the owner might commit a crime.
Never thought of this myself, but good for the lady and her lawyer.

 

[MisterBeale]

Wouldn't it be even cheaper to not violate people's rights?

Folks have the right to do whatever they want?

Do I have the right to kill you if I don't like your opinion?

 

[pknopp]

Folks have the right to do whatever they want?

Do I have the right to kill you if I don't like your opinion?

Blueberries.

 

[MisterBeale]

YOu having problems understanding?
It isn't the chalk, it is taking an action to prosecute a crime without probable cause. Taking a picture is exactly the same as the chalk or ANY method of targeting a car to see if the owner might commit a crime.
Never thought of this myself, but good for the lady and her lawyer.

So. . . should public parking garages not issue parking stubs to see how long you have parked in their facilities then?



From my POV, it is not so much a matter of "probable cause," as letting you use a public space for free. . . and issuing you a time stamp.

Just like in larger cities public parking garages issue you a ticket, and then you pay upon leaving for how much time you use that space.

IMO, folks are looking at this all the wrong way.

Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Very powerful business interests that want to convert entire urban systems, want to do away with this old system of parking enforcement, and obviously are using the law system, see an opportunity to purchase land, and invest in parking, making small towns and patrons PAY FOR PARKING, where it used to be free.

This is all pushed by forces of gentrification.

. . . if this is carried to the ultimate conclusion, free parking will be a fond memory that our grandchildren will be amazed ever existed. Hell, they might even eventually get rid of all private car ownership.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

YOu having problems understanding?
It isn't the chalk, it is taking an action to prosecute a crime without probable cause. Taking a picture is exactly the same as the chalk or ANY method of targeting a car to see if the owner might commit a crime.
Never thought of this myself, but good for the lady and her lawyer.

You seem like the kind that double parks in handicapped spots then makes faces at the retards and cripples when they confront you.

Probably say things like "sup gimp?"

Look...here is the deal...bigot

Not the same. There is nothing preventing photography in a public space.

If that photography then happens to be utilized to protect the public good, in a public space then there can be no expectation of privacy.

No indication that any state authority was targeting any specific citizen.

Ya know...like surveillance cameras?

e.g. it doesn't have to be one car in the photo.

 

[MisterBeale]

You seem like the kind that double parks in handicapped spots then makes faces at the retards and cripples when they confront you.

Probably say things like "sup gimp?"

Look...here is the deal...bigot

Not the same. There is nothing preventing photography in a public space.

If that photography then happens to be utilized to protect the public good, in a public space then there can be no expectation of privacy.

No indication that any state authority was targeting any specific citizen.

Ya know...like surveillance cameras?

e.g. it doesn't have to be one car in the photo.

I love that song.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

I love that song.

My thoughts exactly! Great comedy album.

No cure for cancer.

And then he sucked after that.

 

[Gabe Lackmann]

"The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a ruling in favor of Saginaw and sent the case back to U.S. District Judge Thomas Ludington for the next steps. It was Taylor’s second trip to the appeals court"

Her second trip to an appellate court over parking tickets? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to just pay them, than to pay a lawyer to appeal it all the way to that level? Hell, the only thing after that is the Supreme Court. . . over parking tickets?

Of course it wouldn't be cheaper, because I am sure she has no money, and doesn't give a shit about parking in the lot down by the river and walk two blocks to old town, so her fat stoned ass parks on the street next to the cafe' all day.

I sense an ulterior agenda here.

And I was right. . . she wasn't paying for all this.

The focus on her case and the attention she’s garnered has been a surreal experience, Taylor said.


. . .“I’ve seen so many (news) stories, it’s crazy,” she said. “It’s been like whirlwind. I didn’t expect it. I never really realized how many places use this kind of system, the chalking of tires. When this all came about and I started this, I just wanted Saginaw to be different. I didn’t realize it encompasses so many other cities.”


Appeals court rules chalking tires violates Fourth Amendment
In April 2017, attorneys Philip L. Ellison and Matthew E. Gronda filed a lawsuit on behalf of Alison P. Taylor in U.S. District Court in Bay City. Named as defendants in the suit are the City of Saginaw and Tabitha Hoskins, employed as a city parking official.

Attorneys Philip L. Ellison and Matthew E. Gronda in April 2017 filed the lawsuit on Taylor’s behalf, naming the City of Saginaw and parking official Tabitha Hoskins as defendants. The suit states since 2014, Hoskins has issued Taylor 14 parking tickets — some for $15, others for $30 — primarily for allegedly exceeding the 2-hour limit on a parking spot in Old Town Saginaw in a lot where she works. Hoskins was able to tell that Taylor’s vehicles had surpassed the time limit by marking her tires with chalk, the suit alleges.. . ."

‘It’s been like a whirlwind,’ says woman of media attention after court ruling on chalking tires

"I didn’t expect it. I never really realized how many places use this kind of system, the chalking of tires."

www.mlive.com

This is the LAST thing old town needs. I used to live and work in the very community when I was her age. It had gang problems back then. . . now? It is out of control. It has half the economic activity it once had.

And now powerful forces are trying to make it even more lawless? WHY?




. . . on a side note, Judge Ludington lives a couple blocks away from my folks, I remember when he was nominated by Bush and confirmed. Nice guy.

Jesus...is that a black hole or the defendant?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

So. . . should public parking garages not issue parking stubs to see how long you have parked in their facilities then?



From my POV, it is not so much a matter of "probable cause," as letting you use a public space for free. . . and issuing you a time stamp.

Just like in larger cities public parking garages issue you a ticket, and then you pay upon leaving for how much time you use that space.

IMO, folks are looking at this all the wrong way.

Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Very powerful business interests that want to convert entire urban systems, want to do away with this old system of parking enforcement, and obviously are using the law system, see an opportunity to purchase land, and invest in parking, making small towns and patrons PAY FOR PARKING, where it used to be free.

This is all pushed by forces of gentrification.

. . . if this is carried to the ultimate conclusion, free parking will be a fond memory that our grandchildren will be amazed ever existed. Hell, they might even eventually get rid of all private car ownership.

No, because that is a condition of parking in the garage.
Same for parking meters, you are entering a time you arrive in both circumstances.
The problem with an officer physically marking your car is they do not have probable cause to do so.
Buying a ticket, or paying a meter IS the evidence.