Draft Exemptions For Ultra Orthodox Jews Has Expired In Israel. They Are Not Taking It Well

[skews13]

In Israel, an important piece of legislation crossed an important deadline of evening March 30th. Staring April first, the Haredim, a population of ultra orthodox religious Jews, will no longer be legally exempted from compulsory military service. The state-institutions of Israel are now legally obligated to draft Haredim men of draft age.

this is an issue is, for the netenyahu government, political thermite. The ultra orthodox are not happy about the fact they are now being forced to serve in the military. And although the Haredim population is small relative to Israel’s population, they are vocal and form a powerful driving force in the ultra rightwing movement in Israel

Exemptions expire: As of today, ultra-Orthodox men required to serve in the IDF

Sunday saw violent clashes between left-wing protesters and ultra-Orthodox residents

allisrael.com

 

[okfine]

In Israel, an important piece of legislation crossed an important deadline of evening March 30th. Staring April first, the Haredim, a population of ultra orthodox religious Jews, will no longer be legally exempted from compulsory military service. The state-institutions of Israel are now legally obligated to draft Haredim men of draft age.

this is an issue is, for the netenyahu government, political thermite. The ultra orthodox are not happy about the fact they are now being forced to serve in the military. And although the Haredim population is small relative to Israel’s population, they are vocal and form a powerful driving force in the ultra rightwing movement in Israel

Exemptions expire: As of today, ultra-Orthodox men required to serve in the IDF

Sunday saw violent clashes between left-wing protesters and ultra-Orthodox residents

allisrael.com

Well what do you know. Forced to serve.

 

[MisterBeale]

Yeah, I just heard that on the radio today on NPR. . . I was scratching my head trying to figure THAT one out.

The folks that are most supportive of Bibi's policies, and want to most expel all of the Arabs from participating in Israeli society, and most oppress them, have been exempt from service?

How convenient.

 

[okfine]

Yeah, I just head that on the radio today on NPR. . . I was scratching my head trying to figure THAT one out.

The folks that are most supportive of Bibi's policies, and want to most expel all of the Arabs from participating in Israeli society, and most oppress them, have been exempt from service?

How convenient.

The Orthodox have been fighting their own IDF and Police instead of their enemies. Getting them to work and fight side by side will probably never happen.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Yeah, I just head that on the radio today on NPR. . . I was scratching my head trying to figure THAT one out.

The folks that are most supportive of Bibi's policies, and want to most expel all of the Arabs from participating in Israeli society, and most oppress them, have been exempt from service?

How convenient.

I've always wondered about that.

To be a strongly religious Jew, and to move to Israel for that reason, while at the same time refusing to serve on religious grounds, when you know that Israel is subjec to near continuous threat of attack due to being a Jewish state, seem contridictory.

I feel somewhat the same about our own Amish, Quaker, and Muslim* Americans who eschew fighting, but enjoy the freedom of religion that other men's willingness to fight safeguards for them.

*Muhammed Ali in effect got a religious exemption granted by the USSC from being drafted to fight in Vietnam due to Islam only supporting religiously declared jihads.

Yeah.

 

[Coyote]

I've always wondered about that.

To be a strongly religious Jew, and to move to Israel for that reason, while at the same time refusing to serve on religious grounds, when you know that Israel is subjec to near continuous threat of attack due to being a Jewish state, seem contridictory.

I feel somewhat the same about our own Amish, Quaker, and Muslim* Americans who eschew fighting, but enjoy the freedom of religion that other men's willingness to fight safeguards for them.

*Muhammed Ali in effect got a religious exemption granted by the USSC from being drafted to fight in Vietnam due to Islam only supporting religiously declared jihads.

Yeah.

I don’t object to people like the Quakers and Amish refusing conscription because their faith is pacifist. I think they also served in other non-combat ways didn’t they? It’s a bit different for Israel’s Haredi because their objection is that it would interrupt religious studies. They also get huge subsidies in order to study and that along with they’re exemption from serving has to be galling to many Israeli’s.

 

[rosends]

while there is a national service option instead of military service, the draft exemption here is not about protest (though that exists in a small community and has produced some interesting stories) but about interpretation of religious law. There is a notion in Judaism that our military success is effected by God so it is essential that we have a group who works on the spiritual war while the soldiers fight the physical one. So keeping a group of pious people away from the army makes sense as their part in the "war" effort is on a different field. There is an idea in Israel that certain people dedicate their lives to the religion and therefore they are exempt. The problem is about containing the numbers and not letting people who see the exemption as more important than the religious obligation take advantage of the law.

 

[MisterBeale]

I've always wondered about that.

To be a strongly religious Jew, and to move to Israel for that reason, while at the same time refusing to serve on religious grounds, when you know that Israel is subjec to near continuous threat of attack due to being a Jewish state, seem contridictory.

I feel somewhat the same about our own Amish, Quaker, and Muslim* Americans who eschew fighting, but enjoy the freedom of religion that other men's willingness to fight safeguards for them.

*Muhammed Ali in effect got a religious exemption granted by the USSC from being drafted to fight in Vietnam due to Islam only supporting religiously declared jihads.

Yeah.

There is a BIG difference here.. . . the Amish, Quaker, and Muslim communities? They don't want us to have military bases all over the damn world.

They don't believe, as you do, that any of that make us any safer. That is, to them, and many of us, bullshit neo-con/neo-lib war propaganda.

There are hundreds of other nations that don't do that, which are perfectly fine.

We, like Israel, have the bomb now. No need for it.

 

[MisterBeale]

The Orthodox have been fighting their own IDF and Police instead of their enemies. Getting them to work and fight side by side will probably never happen.

What gave me a chuckle is how this all happens.

During 'Nam, if you wanted to be exempt, you actually had to flee to Canada, or PAY for school.

For them? How do you become an Orthodox Jew? According to the report? You just declare it, and start practicing it!



. . . apparently, this is staring to swell the ranks of the Orthodox community now, and shrink the size of their military.


Too bad, during 'Nam, it weren't just as simple as saying, "I'm a Mennonite now!"

 

[okfine]

while there is a national service option instead of military service, the draft exemption here is not about protest (though that exists in a small community and has produced some interesting stories) but about interpretation of religious law. There is a notion in Judaism that our military success is effected by God so it is essential that we have a group who works on the spiritual war while the soldiers fight the physical one. So keeping a group of pious people away from the army makes sense as their part in the "war" effort is on a different field. There is an idea in Israel that certain people dedicate their lives to the religion and therefore they are exempt. The problem is about containing the numbers and not letting people who see the exemption as more important than the religious obligation take advantage of the law.

I bet praying wins and loses wars. What logic.

 

[rosends]

I bet praying wins and loses wars. What logic.

that's actually a central idea within Judaism.

 

[Seymour Flops]

There is a BIG difference here.. . . the Amish, Quaker, and Muslim communities? They don't want us to have military bases all over the damn world.

Don't they? Have they spoken out often about that? Not that I've heard. They seem to enjoy the benefit that our military provides, and I've never heard them offer advice on strategy.

I don't want us to have military bases all over the world, either. But I do want us to be prepared to quickly and violently repel any attack on the United States, so I did not avoid military service.

They don't believe, as you do, that any of that make us any safer. That is, to them, and many of us, bullshit neo-con/neo-lib war propaganda.

You're making false assumptions about my beliefs. I'm ready to tell NATO to start planning for their own defense and damned quickly so we can pull our troops back to the states.

There are hundreds of other nations that don't do that, which are perfectly fine.

We, like Israel, have the bomb now. No need for it.

Those nations have a military to defend them. I heard of one that agreed not to have a military of their own in exchange for the U.S. holding them as a protectorate.

These Amish, Quaker and Muslim Americans don't oppose only wars fought overseas against people who have not attacked us. They oppose defensive wars, also.

At the end of WWII, American and Russian soldiers shook hands on the Rhein. The plan of those who attacked us was for Japanese and Russian soldiers to shake hands on the Mississippi. I'm sure the Amish, Quakers, and Muslims would have hated that. But that's what would have happened if every American was pacifist as they are.

I don’t object to people like the Quakers and Amish refusing conscription because their faith is pacifist. I think they also served in other non-combat ways didn’t they?

I believe that people who will not bear arms to defend democracy should not be allowed to vote. No alternative service, no being an unarmed medic. The enemies of democracy are willing to kill to stop it. We should be willing to take up arms to protect it.

But that is a one-off belief of mine, so I don't expect anyone to agree.

It’s a bit different for Israel’s Haredi because their objection is that it would interrupt religious studies. They also get huge subsidies in order to study and that along with they’re exemption from serving has to be galling to many Israeli’s.

It is different. For people who see themselves as the most Jewish of all, not to be willing to defend the Jewish homeland seems very strange.

But, I rarely express that opinion. Israel's business is Israel's business.