Dr. Robert P. Jones on What White Christians Have Wrought in American Politics

[Papageorgio]

100 34. “The struggle between two contending images of America has been a constant of our history. From the beginning, many Americans, unhappy with a Constitution that was undeniably secular, defined the United States as a Christian nation. They believed that the civil order and spiritual order are interrelated and interdependent; that if Christianity is the true faith, those who deny it are wrong and misguided; that non-Christians should be tolerated but that government, to be strong and virtuous and moral, must be allied with the religion of the majority.” Morton Borden is a professor of history at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of Jews, Turks, and Infidels (University of North Carolina Press, 1984).

The above is a perfect description of Trump Christians, who hold the main source of truth to be the Holy Bible. Many times literally..



i. Papageorgio cxxxi. to 128: More nonsense and trolling by our resident troll, nothing to say, but he speaks anyway. ppgrg 241221 Sdrpjo00131

ii. NotfooledbyW cxxxii. to 131. : I can’t force intellectual curiosity on you, Saint Papageorgio.. Either you have it or you don’t. nfbw 241221 Sprgio00132

iii. Papageorgio cxxxiii. to 132. : More trolling by a race baiter. ppgrg 2312332 Sprgio00133

iv. NotfooledbyW cxxxiv. to 133. : I am trying to have a civil conversation with Saint Papageorgio regarding the established and consistent curse of racially divisions that are driven by what’s called get the “Christian Biblical Worldview” in politics.

Indeed, the title of this thread is “ Dr. Robert P. Jones on What White Christians Have Wrought in American Politics.” indeed I have introduced some post from the thread that I started on this topic titled “What did Iowa's evangelicals do?”

For that, all I get is insults from Saint Papageorgio calling me a troll and a race baiter.

My contribution here, is supportive of Dr. Robert P Jones and his work that has been cited in this thread by the OP. I think it is important to understanding where we are politically on the issue of race and religion in the lives of working class Americans.

I also want to discuss the way the global oligarchy of billionaires impacts the racial division in politics due in part to the religion of Judeo-Christianity

….. for that, I am called a troll and a race baiter. wtf is all I can say as I will continue to discuss this topic because it is important.

There is another rational thinker on this topic who I shall introduce here with an excerpt about the most American human source of religious liberty and freedom of conscience that we as Americans of all races and religions and non-religions are supposed to enjoy.

Morton Borden is a professor of history at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of Jews, Turks, and Infidels (University of North Carolina Press, 1984). nfbw 241221 Vdrpjo00134

Faith of Our Founders

Jefferson's view of religious freedom, some of his contemporaries complained, exalted individual freedom at the expense of majority rights. Indeed it did, and still does, since Jefferson opposed all tyrannies, of monarchs as well as of majorities. He considered his authorship of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom as memorable and significant as the Declaration of Independence.​

​

But there have been many throughout American history, to this day, who have been unable to accept either Jefferson's ideas on religious freedom or his motives. The Virginia Statute, in fact, one rather typical critic contended, denigrated Christianity. It amounted to "an alliance between the civil authority and infidelity.​

​

Secularism has been, a recent scholar concludes, "one of Jefferson's richest legacies to democracy." Those on the religious right today cannot conceive of republicanism functioning successfully without a Christian foundation.​

​

Like their 19th-century predecessors, they point to current national problems as proof and rely on psychological stress to attract support. They are as zealous as they are indefatigable, for they believe it is the Lord's work.​

v. NotfooledbyW cxxxiv. to 133. : That last sentence ….

(white Christians with a fundamentally strict biblical worldview.) are as zealous as they are indefatigable, for they believe it is the Lord's work.”.​

I believe when understood in the context of the full piece, contributes heavily to the current dysfunction of our democracy from a purely working class point of view.

if you think there is no validity to my observation, please make an argument if you can, Saint Papageorgio. nfbw 241221 Vdrpjo00134

More trolling and insults, that’s all he has, even asking him to be civil doesn’t work.

 

[Papageorgio]

Who? Saint W?

He is pretty condescending toward those that don’t agree with him, sad that people are so bigoted in their views of others without really knowing them. I even agreed with him that killing a baby is a choice and that person has to square that with their god and he got pissed off for calling it what it is. I am honest and he doesn’t care for that.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

100 43. “The struggle between two contending images of America has been a constant of our history. From the beginning, many Americans, unhappy with a Constitution that was undeniably secular, defined the United States as a Christian nation. They believed that the civil order and spiritual order are interrelated and interdependent; that if Christianity is the true faith, those who deny it are wrong and misguided; that non-Christians should be tolerated but that government, to be strong and virtuous and moral, must be allied with the religion of the majority.” Morton Borden

Saint W?

i. NotfooledbyW cxliii. to 135: Allow me Saint Ding to use poetic license to break down Morton Borden‘s paragraph (at the top) to show you in my jargon why I am not a “saintly” voter and you are a “saintly” voter whether or not you actually vote.

“The struggle between two contending images of America has been a constant of our history.“ Borden​

I decided to label posters here according to simply the two “contending images”.

​

“From the beginning, many Americans, unhappy with a Constitution that was undeniably secular, defined the United States as a Christian nation.” Borden​

I would label these voters Christian? Jesus? Bible? voters but in today’s environment with Christianity in general and decline the past three decades, there are many where sympathetic to the cause of Jesus voters, but they are not necessarily Jesus believers.

And back in 1800 there were no black “Jesus“ voters.

So I chose “Saint”.

Saint’s believe or are sympathetic to a belief Christianity is the only true faith and that the civil order and spiritual order are interrelated and interdependent. Therefore, they believe that government, to be strong and virtuous and moral it must be allied with the Christian religion of the majority.

Saints belief that those who deny Christianity is not the true religion of a Christian nation are wrong and misguided.

Saintly voters believe that non-Christians should be tolerated but that government, to be strong and virtuous and moral, must be allied with the religion of the majority.”

On the other side are the Jeffersonian voters. I have designated them simply as “voters”.

Here is Martin Borden’s comments on Jefferson voters.

“Jefferson's view of religious freedom, some of his contemporaries complained, exalted individual freedom at the expense of majority rights. Indeed it did, and still does, since Jefferson opposed all tyrannies, of monarchs as well as of majorities. He considered his authorship of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom as memorable and significant as the Declaration of Independence. “. Morton Borden​

​

Faith of Our Founders​

Let’s hope Saint Ding gets it now. nfbw 241222 Vdrpjo00143

 

[whutTHEYsay]

i. NotfooledbyW OP i. quote by Hugh Hewitt Jan24,2921 : But the most important thing Trump had going for him in Iowa with evangelicals, and probably in all future primary contests, is that the deeply felt belief among many people of faith that elites are after Trump. nfbw 241217 Vwdeid00001

ii. SassyIrishLass ii. to OP 1. : Ya lost. LoL. sssyrshlss 242217 Swdied00002

iii. NotfooledbyW lxxi. to wdied00002. : we certainly did. We lost to damn near the same eMusk billionaires and to the same fundamentalist white rReed Christian evangelicals and to trickle down economics in 1984. nfbw 241219 Vdrpjo00071

iv. Papageorgio lxxxii. to 71. : 312 electoral votes were more than Biden had in 2020. ppgrg 241219 Sdrpjo00082

Do you believe Trump was wrongfully indictef by Jack Smith only because ac

 

[ding]

100 43. “The struggle between two contending images of America has been a constant of our history. From the beginning, many Americans, unhappy with a Constitution that was undeniably secular, defined the United States as a Christian nation. They believed that the civil order and spiritual order are interrelated and interdependent; that if Christianity is the true faith, those who deny it are wrong and misguided; that non-Christians should be tolerated but that government, to be strong and virtuous and moral, must be allied with the religion of the majority.” Morton Borden



i. NotfooledbyW cxliii. to 135: Allow me Saint Ding to use poetic license to break down Morton Borden‘s paragraph (at the top) to show you in my jargon why I am not a “saintly” voter and you are a “saintly” voter whether or not you actually vote.

“The struggle between two contending images of America has been a constant of our history.“ Borden​

I decided to label posters here according to simply the two “contending images”.

​

“From the beginning, many Americans, unhappy with a Constitution that was undeniably secular, defined the United States as a Christian nation.” Borden​

I would label these voters Christian? Jesus? Bible? voters but in today’s environment with Christianity in general and decline the past three decades, there are many where sympathetic to the cause of Jesus voters, but they are not necessarily Jesus believers.

And back in 1800 there were no black “Jesus“ voters.

So I chose “Saint”.

Saint’s believe or are sympathetic to a belief Christianity is the only true faith and that the civil order and spiritual order are interrelated and interdependent. Therefore, they believe that government, to be strong and virtuous and moral it must be allied with the Christian religion of the majority.

Saints belief that those who deny Christianity is not the true religion of a Christian nation are wrong and misguided.

Saintly voters believe that non-Christians should be tolerated but that government, to be strong and virtuous and moral, must be allied with the religion of the majority.”

On the other side are the Jeffersonian voters. I have designated them simply as “voters”.

Here is Martin Borden’s comments on Jefferson voters.

“Jefferson's view of religious freedom, some of his contemporaries complained, exalted individual freedom at the expense of majority rights. Indeed it did, and still does, since Jefferson opposed all tyrannies, of monarchs as well as of majorities. He considered his authorship of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom as memorable and significant as the Declaration of Independence. “. Morton Borden​

​

Faith of Our Founders​

Let’s hope Saint Ding gets it now. nfbw 241222 Vdrpjo00143

tl/dr

 

[ding]

He is pretty condescending toward those that don’t agree with him, sad that people are so bigoted in their views of others without really knowing them. I even agreed with him that killing a baby is a choice and that person has to square that with their god and he got pissed off for calling it what it is. I am honest and he doesn’t care for that.

Yep and his formatting is goofy as hell.

 

[ding]

i. NotfooledbyW OP i. quote by Hugh Hewitt Jan24,2921 : But the most important thing Trump had going for him in Iowa with evangelicals, and probably in all future primary contests, is that the deeply felt belief among many people of faith that elites are after Trump. nfbw 241217 Vwdeid00001

ii. SassyIrishLass ii. to OP 1. : Ya lost. LoL. sssyrshlss 242217 Swdied00002

iii. NotfooledbyW lxxi. to wdied00002. : we certainly did. We lost to damn near the same eMusk billionaires and to the same fundamentalist white rReed Christian evangelicals and to trickle down economics in 1984. nfbw 241219 Vdrpjo00071

iv. Papageorgio lxxxii. to 71. : 312 electoral votes were more than Biden had in 2020. ppgrg 241219 Sdrpjo00082

Do you believe Trump was wrongfully indictef by Jack Smith only because ac

That's a goofy way of conversing.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

That's a goofy way of conversing.

The only thing your mind can scratch up is a personal insult. I’m sure you could do better than that if you could figure out how and you what you want to say on an intellectual basis.

I believe your boiler plates are failing you

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Letting the facts do the talking and the bullshit doing the walking

That's a goofy way of conversing.

it’s merely a chronological record of conversations, taking place on a message board.

Which is beneficial for checking the record at times when posters such as Saint Papageorgio claim that I do nothing but insult him and pronounce that I am a troll.

If you check the posts involving Saint Papa and myself you will see that I have never insulted him .


100 28. Dr. Robert P. Jones on What White Christians Have Wrought in American Politics. What did Iowa's evangelicals do?

i. NotfooledbyW OP i. quote by Hugh Hewitt Jan 16, 2024 : But the most important thing Trump had going for him in Iowa with evangelicals, and probably in all future primary contests, is that the deeply felt belief among many people of faith that elites are after Trump. nfbw 241217 Vwdeid00001

ii. SassyIrishLass ii. to OP 1. : Ya lost. LoL. sssyrshlss 242217 Swdied00002

iii. NotfooledbyW lxxi. to wdied00002. : we certainly did. We lost to damn near the same eMusk billionaires and to the same fundamentalist white rReed Christian evangelicals and to trickle down economics in 1984.

Trump is no Ronald Reagan on the character ‘n morality trophy case. Sinful Don Trump barely squeaked out a win this year.

So you haters of the multiracial working class we have going for us who want to keep church and states separated, should NOT get your hopes up before the big fall.
nfbw 241219 Vdrpjo00071

iv. Papageorgio lxxxii. to 71. : 312 electoral votes were more than Biden had in 2020. ppgrg 241219 Sdrpjo00082

v. NotfooledbyW xcvi. to. 82. : Who do you favor in the current REPUBLICAN “debt ceiling” fight on Capitol Hill. •¥• Chip Roy or Elon Musk? nfbw 241220. Vdrpjo00096

vi. Papageorgio ci. to 96. : Why do you care? Why is it relevant to this discussion? ppgrg 241220 Sdrpjo00101

vii. NotfooledbyW cii. to 101. : if you read What White Christians Have Wrought. You will not ask a question to dodge my question. nfbw 241220 Vdrpjo00102

viii. Papageorgio cx. to 102. : I’m not answering questions while you continually insult me. ppgrg 242220 Sprgjo00110

ix. NotfooledbyW cxxviii. to. 71, 96 & 201 : Do you accept the following data to be accurate?

What White Christians Have Wrought

According to the 2024 National Election Pool exit polls, 8 in 10 (81%) white evangelicals once again declared their allegiance to Trump, as did 60% of white Catholics and similar numbers of white non-evangelical Protestants. (Note: While there are no publicly available exit poll numbers for white non-evangelical Protestants, pre-election polling from PRRIs. uggests 6 in 10 once again supported Trump).

If we put white Christians’ strong support for Trump into context, we can clearly see their singular contribution to his power. Overall, more than two thirds (68%) of white Christians favored Trump over Harris—a mirror image of the rest of the country, including Christians of color (33%), followers of non-Christian religions (30%), and the religiously unaffiliated (28%). While the proportion of white Christians in the country has been declining over the last three decades, they remain 41% of the population and an even higher percentage of voters. Even a modest decline in the overwhelming level of support for Trump among white Christians would have denied him the Republican nomination or the presidency. nfbw 241222 Vprgjo00128

x. NotfooledbyW cxxviii. to. 71, 96 & 201. Trump cannot be president if 81%)of white evangelicals; 60% of white Catholics and a majority of white non-evangelical Protestants do not support him.

That data can be the beginning of the discussion we need to have if we are to preserve the liberal democracy that we inherited from our rational theist founders. Our founding fathers would not be included with the Trump supportive, Biblical Worldview white Christian base. nfbw 241222 Vprgjo00128

 

[ding]

The only thing your mind can scratch up is a personal insult. I’m sure you could do better than that if you could figure out how and you what you want to say on an intellectual basis.

I believe your boiler plates are failing you

I didn't say YOU were goofy. I said your style of conversing was goofy. Is this distinction beyond your ability to comprehend it?

 

[ding]

it’s merely a chronological record of conversations, taking place on a message board.

It's dumb. It's a distraction. It adds confusion. It's unhelpful.

Of course, you will probably interpret that to mean I was saying you are dumb, you are a distraction, you create confusion and you are unhelpful.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

It's dumb. It's a distraction. It adds confusion. It's unhelpful.

why is it dumb? Why is it a distraction? How does it add to confusion and why is it unhelpful?

you are making a claim now back it up


FYI, I am very bored with all that. I don’t suck. You suck tribal mentality on 98% of all the posting going on here.

 

[ding]

Letting the facts do the talking and the bullshit doing the walking

I'm sure with your looking at yourself through rose colored glasses that's exactly how you see it.

 

[ding]

why is it dumb? Why are they a distraction? Why does it add to confusion and why is it unhelpful?

you are making a claim now back it up

It's dumb because it's a distraction, adds confusion and is unhelpful.

It's a distraction because it's disjointed.

It's confusing because you list items before you make your point so as we read them we are not sure of how each item fits into your point.

It's unhelpful because it's confusing and distracting.

 

[Papageorgio]

Letting the facts do the talking and the bullshit doing the walking


it’s merely a chronological record of conversations, taking place on a message board.

Which is beneficial for checking the record at times when posters such as Saint Papageorgio claim that I do nothing but insult him and pronounce that I am a troll.

If you check the posts involving Saint Papa and myself you will see that I have never insulted him .


100 28. Dr. Robert P. Jones on What White Christians Have Wrought in American Politics. What did Iowa's evangelicals do?

i. NotfooledbyW OP i. quote by Hugh Hewitt Jan 16, 2024 : But the most important thing Trump had going for him in Iowa with evangelicals, and probably in all future primary contests, is that the deeply felt belief among many people of faith that elites are after Trump. nfbw 241217 Vwdeid00001

ii. SassyIrishLass ii. to OP 1. : Ya lost. LoL. sssyrshlss 242217 Swdied00002

iii. NotfooledbyW lxxi. to wdied00002. : we certainly did. We lost to damn near the same eMusk billionaires and to the same fundamentalist white rReed Christian evangelicals and to trickle down economics in 1984.

Trump is no Ronald Reagan on the character ‘n morality trophy case. Sinful Don Trump barely squeaked out a win this year.

So you haters of the multiracial working class we have going for us who want to keep church and states separated, should NOT get your hopes up before the big fall.
nfbw 241219 Vdrpjo00071

iv. Papageorgio lxxxii. to 71. : 312 electoral votes were more than Biden had in 2020. ppgrg 241219 Sdrpjo00082

v. NotfooledbyW xcvi. to. 82. : Who do you favor in the current REPUBLICAN “debt ceiling” fight on Capitol Hill. •¥• Chip Roy or Elon Musk? nfbw 241220. Vdrpjo00096

vi. Papageorgio ci. to 96. : Why do you care? Why is it relevant to this discussion? ppgrg 241220 Sdrpjo00101

vii. NotfooledbyW cii. to 101. : if you read What White Christians Have Wrought. You will not ask a question to dodge my question. nfbw 241220 Vdrpjo00102

viii. Papageorgio cx. to 102. : I’m not answering questions while you continually insult me. ppgrg 242220 Sprgjo00110

ix. NotfooledbyW cxxviii. to. 71, 96 & 201 : Do you accept the following data to be accurate?

What White Christians Have Wrought

According to the 2024 National Election Pool exit polls, 8 in 10 (81%) white evangelicals once again declared their allegiance to Trump, as did 60% of white Catholics and similar numbers of white non-evangelical Protestants. (Note: While there are no publicly available exit poll numbers for white non-evangelical Protestants, pre-election polling from PRRIs. uggests 6 in 10 once again supported Trump).

If we put white Christians’ strong support for Trump into context, we can clearly see their singular contribution to his power. Overall, more than two thirds (68%) of white Christians favored Trump over Harris—a mirror image of the rest of the country, including Christians of color (33%), followers of non-Christian religions (30%), and the religiously unaffiliated (28%). While the proportion of white Christians in the country has been declining over the last three decades, they remain 41% of the population and an even higher percentage of voters. Even a modest decline in the overwhelming level of support for Trump among white Christians would have denied him the Republican nomination or the presidency. nfbw 241222 Vprgjo00128

x. NotfooledbyW cxxviii. to. 71, 96 & 201. Trump cannot be president if 81%)of white evangelicals; 60% of white Catholics and a majority of white non-evangelical Protestants do not support him.

That data can be the beginning of the discussion we need to have if we are to preserve the liberal democracy that we inherited from our rational theist founders. Our founding fathers would not be included with the Trump supportive, Biblical Worldview white Christian base. nfbw 241222 Vprgjo00128

You personally insult me in your posts and then get upset if I retaliate you get ticked off at me? How does that work? You quit with your personal insults and I quit with mine, but you refuse to, ball is in your court. BTW, the way you format your posts are tough to follow so I only read perhaps 20% of what you post, the rest is very tough follow your train of thought.

 

[ding]

FYI, I am very bored with all that. I don’t suck. You suck tribal mentality on 98% of all the posting going on here.

That you don't see that you are tribal is hilarious to me. Your tribe is the Democratic Party.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

I'm sure with your looking at yourself through rose colored glasses that's exactly how you see it.

I recognize and organize the posts. With links to each one. Saint Papageorgio keeps accusing me of insulting him.

The fact that I did not insult him is on display but it is an inconvenience for you to check.

But you won’t check; you think checking is goofy

My opinion is that you prefer bullshit to facts

 

[whutTHEYsay]

That you don't see that you are tribal is hilarious to me. Your tribe is the Democratic Party.

I never said I was not tribal . You are a liar.

 

[ding]

You suck tribal mentality on 98% of all the posting going on here.

What's my tribe? Because regardless of what tribe you think I belong to, I can't wait to show you all the ways I disagree with them. Bet you can't say the same about YOUR tribe.

 

[Papageorgio]

I recognize the posts. With links to each one. Saint Papageorgio keeping him.

The fact that I did not on display inconvenience for you to check.

But you won’t chat you think check-in is goofy

My opinion is that you prefer bullshit to facts

My opinion is you are a tough read and you try to use confusion as a way to distort facts.