Dr Collins, top geneticist, and CHRISTIAN....

[Youwerecreated]

Taken out of context that quote sounds more like evidence for evolution. YWC's entire argument is that mutations dont happen fast enough or even at all it seems like. In that quote Spetner is admitting exactly the opposite.

I think he was saying what i was saying that if they mutated at that rate it would destroy the organism but i will look at it.

I usually don't like taking so little information without knowing where it came from.

The link is included...

Ok thanks.

 

[Iridescence]

Mutation rate,that is not what i am saying. I am saying Spetner believed mutations resulted in the loss of information.

It obviously resulted in some loss of information if it were a backward mutation.

"Backward mutations"

Lol. Please explain to me by which mechanism mutations face different directions

These two people clearly dont understand what i mean by insertion, substitution, and deletion. Either of these things is just as likely a source of mutation as the others. Therefore your premise that information cannot be added is wrong at a fundamental level.

Dr Spetner admitted that information can indeed be added, you have the quote. He doesnt think it can be added fast enough to go from bacteria to human, but hes not stupid enough to think that information cant be added at all.

Thats a truly stupid thought. Only someone that doesnt understand how mutations work at the genetic level would claim such a ridiculous thing.

How are you so forward in thinking when you are arguing such a backward thing as loss of information and mutated bacterium? Backward like as in not pairing at the same level... backward like your chimps making humans instead of the reverse (forward).

Everything that is most likely came from mankind being brokedown. Fanatical? Perhaps just the other side of the 'evolutionary' coin.

 

[cbirch2]

It obviously resulted in some loss of information if it were a backward mutation.

"Backward mutations"

Lol. Please explain to me by which mechanism mutations face different directions

These two people clearly dont understand what i mean by insertion, substitution, and deletion. Either of these things is just as likely a source of mutation as the others. Therefore your premise that information cannot be added is wrong at a fundamental level.

Dr Spetner admitted that information can indeed be added, you have the quote. He doesnt think it can be added fast enough to go from bacteria to human, but hes not stupid enough to think that information cant be added at all.

Thats a truly stupid thought. Only someone that doesnt understand how mutations work at the genetic level would claim such a ridiculous thing.

How are you so forward in thinking when you are arguing such a backward thing as loss of information and mutated bacterium? Backward like as in not pairing at the same level... backward like your chimps making humans instead of the reverse (forward).

Everything that is most likely came from mankind being brokedown. Fanatical? Perhaps just the other side of the 'evolutionary' coin.

Lol where is this loss of information your claiming? Evolution results in losses and gains in information. its random.

 

[cbirch2]

What fruit fly experiment are you talking about. Theres probably about a hundred.

Come on you really can't answer those questions, i deliberately asked you those questions to see what level of genetics you're educated in.

If your going to ask me how many generations were bred and how many mutations happened your going to have to tell me which experiment your referencing. its like your asking me: "who one the game?", and im like "baseball or basketball?", and you reply "answer the question!". Thats psychotic.

Not to mention to claim a certain amount of mutations within an entire population is ridiculous. Did they sequence the genome of every fly?

 

[cbirch2]

And YWC you definitely didnt answer my question. You acknowledged that chromosome 2 is a result of fusion but still seem to think speciation isnt provable; an impossible conclusion.

I gave you my problems with that conclusion.

Lol no you didnt, you ignored it. Wheres the fault in the logic? If primitive humans had 48 chromosomes, which weve established they did, then they were a different species. Thats cut and dry.

 

[cbirch2]

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

The biggest problem for your theory oops, i mean Dr. Millers theory is this. It get's in the way of the real problem. It's not just the difference in the number of Chromosomes in both chimp and human. It's the information contained in the Chromosomes. The ape went through anatomical restructuring to develop .The ape had to learn to speak,stand upright,sing,expience emotions,by random processes in other words by chance. To which none of this has been observed.

Despitel similarities between human and ape chromosomes, there are important differences on the molecular level. many protein coding genes in humans that are just human and are not found in chimps. The differences in genes that don't code for proteins. Genes have been described which code for micro rna. The miro rna molecule is not translated, but acts directly to control gene expression. One micro rna can regulate the expression of dozens or even hundreds of genes. A study done on micro rnas expressed in the brain found fifty one of four hundred fortyseven micro rnas were distinctly human and only 25 in the chimp.

The thought of many genes were altered so that they are expressed in the proper concentration cell type and can effectively control the many different genes they regulate is not what we would expect of a chance process. It makes more sense to believe God created the chimp distinct from a human. How is that for logic ?

This is not a refutation of the fused chromosome

That is a refutation of the relation of apes and human. It still doesnt address the issue that early human ancestors must have had 48 chromosomes and therefore been a different species. You still have a lot of explaining to do on that point.

 

[Youwerecreated]

"Backward mutations"

Lol. Please explain to me by which mechanism mutations face different directions

These two people clearly dont understand what i mean by insertion, substitution, and deletion. Either of these things is just as likely a source of mutation as the others. Therefore your premise that information cannot be added is wrong at a fundamental level.

Dr Spetner admitted that information can indeed be added, you have the quote. He doesnt think it can be added fast enough to go from bacteria to human, but hes not stupid enough to think that information cant be added at all.

Thats a truly stupid thought. Only someone that doesnt understand how mutations work at the genetic level would claim such a ridiculous thing.

How are you so forward in thinking when you are arguing such a backward thing as loss of information and mutated bacterium? Backward like as in not pairing at the same level... backward like your chimps making humans instead of the reverse (forward).

Everything that is most likely came from mankind being brokedown. Fanatical? Perhaps just the other side of the 'evolutionary' coin.

Lol where is this loss of information your claiming? Evolution results in losses and gains in information. its random.

I thought macro evolution was the gain of new and beneficial information ? How does a loss of information cause macro evolution ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

What fruit fly experiment are you talking about. Theres probably about a hundred.

Come on you really can't answer those questions, i deliberately asked you those questions to see what level of genetics you're educated in.

If your going to ask me how many generations were bred and how many mutations happened your going to have to tell me which experiment your referencing. its like your asking me: "who one the game?", and im like "baseball or basketball?", and you reply "answer the question!". Thats psychotic.

Not to mention to claim a certain amount of mutations within an entire population is ridiculous. Did they sequence the genome of every fly?

A genetics major would know this information by the questions asked.

 

[Youwerecreated]

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

The biggest problem for your theory oops, i mean Dr. Millers theory is this. It get's in the way of the real problem. It's not just the difference in the number of Chromosomes in both chimp and human. It's the information contained in the Chromosomes. The ape went through anatomical restructuring to develop .The ape had to learn to speak,stand upright,sing,expience emotions,by random processes in other words by chance. To which none of this has been observed.

Despitel similarities between human and ape chromosomes, there are important differences on the molecular level. many protein coding genes in humans that are just human and are not found in chimps. The differences in genes that don't code for proteins. Genes have been described which code for micro rna. The miro rna molecule is not translated, but acts directly to control gene expression. One micro rna can regulate the expression of dozens or even hundreds of genes. A study done on micro rnas expressed in the brain found fifty one of four hundred fortyseven micro rnas were distinctly human and only 25 in the chimp.

The thought of many genes were altered so that they are expressed in the proper concentration cell type and can effectively control the many different genes they regulate is not what we would expect of a chance process. It makes more sense to believe God created the chimp distinct from a human. How is that for logic ?

This is not a refutation of the fused chromosome

That is a refutation of the relation of apes and human. It still doesnt address the issue that early human ancestors must have had 48 chromosomes and therefore been a different species. You still have a lot of explaining to do on that point.

You're are trying to argue that two primates chromosomes fused with no proof of it happening.

As far as i am concerned this is a fairytale.

 

[Youwerecreated]

What fruit fly experiment are you talking about. Theres probably about a hundred.

Come on you really can't answer those questions, i deliberately asked you those questions to see what level of genetics you're educated in.

If your going to ask me how many generations were bred and how many mutations happened your going to have to tell me which experiment your referencing. its like your asking me: "who one the game?", and im like "baseball or basketball?", and you reply "answer the question!". Thats psychotic.

Not to mention to claim a certain amount of mutations within an entire population is ridiculous. Did they sequence the genome of every fly?

For God's sake look at the questions,i am not gonna make it easy for you to google,i want the answers out of your text books or scholarly writings.

 

[Iridescence]

Well... It seems that Disney pulls in enough money to fund the grants to support such fairy tales.

 

[cbirch2]

The biggest problem for your theory oops, i mean Dr. Millers theory is this. It get's in the way of the real problem. It's not just the difference in the number of Chromosomes in both chimp and human. It's the information contained in the Chromosomes. The ape went through anatomical restructuring to develop .The ape had to learn to speak,stand upright,sing,expience emotions,by random processes in other words by chance. To which none of this has been observed.

Despitel similarities between human and ape chromosomes, there are important differences on the molecular level. many protein coding genes in humans that are just human and are not found in chimps. The differences in genes that don't code for proteins. Genes have been described which code for micro rna. The miro rna molecule is not translated, but acts directly to control gene expression. One micro rna can regulate the expression of dozens or even hundreds of genes. A study done on micro rnas expressed in the brain found fifty one of four hundred fortyseven micro rnas were distinctly human and only 25 in the chimp.

The thought of many genes were altered so that they are expressed in the proper concentration cell type and can effectively control the many different genes they regulate is not what we would expect of a chance process. It makes more sense to believe God created the chimp distinct from a human. How is that for logic ?

This is not a refutation of the fused chromosome

That is a refutation of the relation of apes and human. It still doesnt address the issue that early human ancestors must have had 48 chromosomes and therefore been a different species. You still have a lot of explaining to do on that point.

You're are trying to argue that two primates chromosomes fused with no proof of it happening.

As far as i am concerned this is a fairytale.

delete the word primate and yea thats what im proving.

Again. The only way for a chromosome to have a vestigial centromere and telomeres at its center is fusion of two chromosomes. This is a verifiable fact. it doesnt matter if it was an ape chromosome or not. If chromosome 2 is the fusion of two chromosomes, and it is, then humans are the result of speciation from some organism, ape or not. Case closed.

 

[cbirch2]

Come on you really can't answer those questions, i deliberately asked you those questions to see what level of genetics you're educated in.

If your going to ask me how many generations were bred and how many mutations happened your going to have to tell me which experiment your referencing. its like your asking me: "who one the game?", and im like "baseball or basketball?", and you reply "answer the question!". Thats psychotic.

Not to mention to claim a certain amount of mutations within an entire population is ridiculous. Did they sequence the genome of every fly?

A genetics major would know this information by the questions asked.

1. Im not a genetics major, i just stayed conscious in all my biology classes.

2. Are you referring to the post in which you asked 7 questions like how many generations of fruit fly were produced in some experiment? Theres been thousands of experiments on fruit flies, so youll have to specify which experiment your referring to. Unless you want me to read your mind.

 

[cbirch2]

How are you so forward in thinking when you are arguing such a backward thing as loss of information and mutated bacterium? Backward like as in not pairing at the same level... backward like your chimps making humans instead of the reverse (forward).

Everything that is most likely came from mankind being brokedown. Fanatical? Perhaps just the other side of the 'evolutionary' coin.

Lol where is this loss of information your claiming? Evolution results in losses and gains in information. its random.

I thought macro evolution was the gain of new and beneficial information ? How does a loss of information cause macro evolution ?

Lol you have absolutely no evidence that evolution results in the loss of information. Any given mutation may be a loss, gain, or variation of information, but that says nothing about the gene pool as a whole.

 

[AllieBaba]

Lol where is this loss of information your claiming? Evolution results in losses and gains in information. its random.

I thought macro evolution was the gain of new and beneficial information ? How does a loss of information cause macro evolution ?

Lol you have absolutely no evidence that evolution results in the loss of information. Any given mutation may be a loss, gain, or variation of information, but that says nothing about the gene pool as a whole.

There you go contradicting yourself again..."you have no evidence that evolution results in the loss of information" "Any given mutation may be a loss...of information".

What the hell do you mean?

There is no evidence that there is loss of information...but mutations may be a loss of information....

How schizo can you get?

 

[AllieBaba]

And your friend WIKI seems to think there is a loss:

"But when selection is weak, mutation bias towards loss of function can affect evolution. For example, pigments are no longer useful when animals live in the darkness of caves, and tend to be lost.[123] This kind of loss of function can occur because of mutation bias, and/or because the function had a cost, and once the benefit of the function disappeared, natural selection leads to the loss. "
Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AllieBaba]

"So directional selection eventually will lead to a situation where genetic variation will be lost (heritability will become zero) and all individuals will have the alleles for the highest fitness form of the trait. "

Evolution of Polygenic Traits

 

[AllieBaba]

And the summary of that lecture:

"You should see that most of these forms of selection will result in a loss of genetic variation (low heritability.) You should be able to explain why stabilizing selection results in loss of genetic variation."
Evolution of Polygenic Traits

 

[Youwerecreated]

This is not a refutation of the fused chromosome

That is a refutation of the relation of apes and human. It still doesnt address the issue that early human ancestors must have had 48 chromosomes and therefore been a different species. You still have a lot of explaining to do on that point.

You're are trying to argue that two primates chromosomes fused with no proof of it happening.

As far as i am concerned this is a fairytale.

delete the word primate and yea thats what im proving.

Again. The only way for a chromosome to have a vestigial centromere and telomeres at its center is fusion of two chromosomes. This is a verifiable fact. it doesnt matter if it was an ape chromosome or not. If chromosome 2 is the fusion of two chromosomes, and it is, then humans are the result of speciation from some organism, ape or not. Case closed.

Then you're straying away from Dr. Millers theory because he is the one that said it was two primates that chromosomes fused,poof now you have a human.

Did you not understand my reason why this is to big of a fish to swallow ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

If your going to ask me how many generations were bred and how many mutations happened your going to have to tell me which experiment your referencing. its like your asking me: "who one the game?", and im like "baseball or basketball?", and you reply "answer the question!". Thats psychotic.

Not to mention to claim a certain amount of mutations within an entire population is ridiculous. Did they sequence the genome of every fly?

A genetics major would know this information by the questions asked.

1. Im not a genetics major, i just stayed conscious in all my biology classes.

2. Are you referring to the post in which you asked 7 questions like how many generations of fruit fly were produced in some experiment? Theres been thousands of experiments on fruit flies, so youll have to specify which experiment your referring to. Unless you want me to read your mind.

Yes,then forget the questions but if you do not understand genetics well enough how can you argue mutations ?

That is why you are not understanding fully my argument nor Spetners.

The mutation rate alone is reason not to believe that man evolved from an ape or a chimp.