Don't look now...but the Patriots are PO'd!

[Alex.]

For Berman's decision to be overturned by an appellate court the NFL is going to have to show that his ruling was flawed some how. Good luck on that. I read Berman's decision and he was very clear about why he was overturning Brady's suspension. You (and the NFL) may not like Berman's conclusion but it's a reasoned one and within the law.

I care more about how he reached his conclusion than what his conclusion was.

 

[Alex.]

It's always bothered me that the team who turned in the Patriots for "Spygate" had themselves been caught doing the exact same thing yet the Patriots were branded as "cheaters" and the Jets were given a pass.

Then it's the Colts who claim the Patriots are using under inflated balls based solely on the ball that they had in their possession before turning it over to league officials...a team who had previously been caught piping in loud crowd noise over their PA system when their opponents had the ball on offense. So it's obvious that the Colts had no problem breaking the rules...yet they aren't questioned about that ball which was so much more under inflated than the other 11? How could any investigation that wanted to get to the bottom of what happened not begin by viewing ALL parties involved as suspect...especially a party that has a history of cheating?

So explain to me why the Well's investigation never investigated the Colts, Phallics?

I would not trust the NFL for anything it is an oligopolistic market which lends itself to a questionable type of self governance.

That's wonderful, Phallics...but once again you've ducked my question!

Why didn't the Well's Investigation ever ask the Colts if they did anything to that ball that they handed over to officials at half time?

I am not ducking anything. If they fucked up, they fucked up, I have no idea who they should have asked

If they fucked up? Come on, Phallics...there's no question at this point that the Wells investigation was awful. You don't get chastised by a judge in open court if your investigation was done properly.

I do not have reason as this was done by the NFL. If it were up to me there would be a clear course of action on all of this.

But you admit that it WAS done by the NFL? And then you wonder why a Federal judge looked at the way that the NFL attempted to punish Tom Brady and the Patriots and said it was unfair? Gee, think one might have something to do with the other? Duh?

Th judge used one set of federal rules and he should have used another. The NFL filed for an expedited hearing on appeal, rarely granted and received that. The case should be decided in a couple of months.

The judge based his decision on the CBA itself, Phallics. Yes, the Commissioner of the NFL was given almost unlimited power to impose discipline on teams and players in the latest CBA but included in the language of that agreement is the term "fair". Under the CBA, the Commissioner is required to be "fair" in his decisions! The reason that Judge Berman ruled against the NFL is that he didn't see fairness in the investigation that the NFL conducted and he didn't see fairness in the penalties that were imposed on Tom Brady.

As for when that case will be heard? I've heard February at the earliest...with six months more likely. By the way...once that hearing does occur? Don't hold your breath waiting for a reversal. Courts rarely reverse arbitration decisions but it's even rarer for one that is reversed to be reversed once again. Keep in mind that this last hearing was by a judge that the NFL wanted to hear the case and chose that venue to achieve that. If they couldn't get Berman to side with them...then what makes you think some other judge is going to find enough fault with Berman's ruling to overturn it?

These are the issues to be decided, "whether Berman incorrectly relied on the Federal Arbitration Act instead of the Labor Management Relations Act; whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over how commissioner Roger Goodell interpreted the NFL’s collective bargaining agreement; and whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over Goodell’s rulings."

NFL files paperwork to appeal Judge Berman’s Deflategate ruling - The Boston Globe

That article estimates that the case probably won't be heard until next spring or summer.

Brady was chastised by the Judge for non cooperation as well.

 

[Alex.]

"Goodell has no regrets suspending Tom Brady: 'Rules apply to everyone'

Goodell said the league will never play favorites.

"Every single player expects those rules to apply to everybody," Goodell said. "Every coach does, every fan does, every partner, every team does. So our rules and the integrity of our game aren't because somebody's popular or somebody's a Super Bowl champ or not. They're to be applied evenly. Our teams expect that, and that's our job. That's our responsibility. That's my job."

Although Deflategate dragged on for almost nine months and cost the NFL over $5 million to investigate, Goodell has no regrets suspending Brady.

"I don't regret that, and we will continue to uphold the integrity of the game, and we'll do that as vehemently as we can," Goodell said."


"This isn't about any individual player or any individual incident," Goodell said. "This is about the rights that we negotiated in 2011, the rights for us to have the authority to make sure we discipline. Protecting the integrity of the game is not something we're going to compromise."

Goodell has no regrets suspending Tom Brady: 'Rules apply to everyone' - CBSSports.com

In bold is what I am most interested in.

 

[Oldstyle]

It's always bothered me that the team who turned in the Patriots for "Spygate" had themselves been caught doing the exact same thing yet the Patriots were branded as "cheaters" and the Jets were given a pass.

Then it's the Colts who claim the Patriots are using under inflated balls based solely on the ball that they had in their possession before turning it over to league officials...a team who had previously been caught piping in loud crowd noise over their PA system when their opponents had the ball on offense. So it's obvious that the Colts had no problem breaking the rules...yet they aren't questioned about that ball which was so much more under inflated than the other 11? How could any investigation that wanted to get to the bottom of what happened not begin by viewing ALL parties involved as suspect...especially a party that has a history of cheating?

So explain to me why the Well's investigation never investigated the Colts, Phallics?

I would not trust the NFL for anything it is an oligopolistic market which lends itself to a questionable type of self governance.

That's wonderful, Phallics...but once again you've ducked my question!

Why didn't the Well's Investigation ever ask the Colts if they did anything to that ball that they handed over to officials at half time?

I am not ducking anything. If they fucked up, they fucked up, I have no idea who they should have asked

If they fucked up? Come on, Phallics...there's no question at this point that the Wells investigation was awful. You don't get chastised by a judge in open court if your investigation was done properly.

But you admit that it WAS done by the NFL? And then you wonder why a Federal judge looked at the way that the NFL attempted to punish Tom Brady and the Patriots and said it was unfair? Gee, think one might have something to do with the other? Duh?

Th judge used one set of federal rules and he should have used another. The NFL filed for an expedited hearing on appeal, rarely granted and received that. The case should be decided in a couple of months.

The judge based his decision on the CBA itself, Phallics. Yes, the Commissioner of the NFL was given almost unlimited power to impose discipline on teams and players in the latest CBA but included in the language of that agreement is the term "fair". Under the CBA, the Commissioner is required to be "fair" in his decisions! The reason that Judge Berman ruled against the NFL is that he didn't see fairness in the investigation that the NFL conducted and he didn't see fairness in the penalties that were imposed on Tom Brady.

As for when that case will be heard? I've heard February at the earliest...with six months more likely. By the way...once that hearing does occur? Don't hold your breath waiting for a reversal. Courts rarely reverse arbitration decisions but it's even rarer for one that is reversed to be reversed once again. Keep in mind that this last hearing was by a judge that the NFL wanted to hear the case and chose that venue to achieve that. If they couldn't get Berman to side with them...then what makes you think some other judge is going to find enough fault with Berman's ruling to overturn it?

These are the issues to be decided, "whether Berman incorrectly relied on the Federal Arbitration Act instead of the Labor Management Relations Act; whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over how commissioner Roger Goodell interpreted the NFL’s collective bargaining agreement; and whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over Goodell’s rulings."

NFL files paperwork to appeal Judge Berman’s Deflategate ruling - The Boston Globe

That article estimates that the case probably won't be heard until next spring or summer.

Brady was chastised by the Judge for non cooperation as well.

And the Judge quite clearly told the NFL that they can't impose unprecedented penalties for players doing things that they weren't told they couldn't do. If Brady doesn't know that destroying his phone is going to cost him 5 million dollars then the NFL can't impose a suspension that costs him that much for not cooperating! It goes right back to the "fairness" clause that's written into the CBA.

 

[Oldstyle]

"Goodell has no regrets suspending Tom Brady: 'Rules apply to everyone'

Goodell said the league will never play favorites.

"Every single player expects those rules to apply to everybody," Goodell said. "Every coach does, every fan does, every partner, every team does. So our rules and the integrity of our game aren't because somebody's popular or somebody's a Super Bowl champ or not. They're to be applied evenly. Our teams expect that, and that's our job. That's our responsibility. That's my job."

Although Deflategate dragged on for almost nine months and cost the NFL over $5 million to investigate, Goodell has no regrets suspending Brady.

"I don't regret that, and we will continue to uphold the integrity of the game, and we'll do that as vehemently as we can," Goodell said."


"This isn't about any individual player or any individual incident," Goodell said. "This is about the rights that we negotiated in 2011, the rights for us to have the authority to make sure we discipline. Protecting the integrity of the game is not something we're going to compromise."

Goodell has no regrets suspending Tom Brady: 'Rules apply to everyone' - CBSSports.com

In bold is what I am most interested in.

Well if rules apply to everybody...then why didn't they seem to apply to the Jets, the Colts or the Bears?

 

[Oldstyle]

Goodell can talk the talk all he wants but if the punishment he hands out isn't fair then he's going to lose on appeal. That's about as obvious as anything right now.

 

[Alex.]

"Goodell has no regrets suspending Tom Brady: 'Rules apply to everyone'

Goodell said the league will never play favorites.

"Every single player expects those rules to apply to everybody," Goodell said. "Every coach does, every fan does, every partner, every team does. So our rules and the integrity of our game aren't because somebody's popular or somebody's a Super Bowl champ or not. They're to be applied evenly. Our teams expect that, and that's our job. That's our responsibility. That's my job."

Although Deflategate dragged on for almost nine months and cost the NFL over $5 million to investigate, Goodell has no regrets suspending Brady.

"I don't regret that, and we will continue to uphold the integrity of the game, and we'll do that as vehemently as we can," Goodell said."


"This isn't about any individual player or any individual incident," Goodell said. "This is about the rights that we negotiated in 2011, the rights for us to have the authority to make sure we discipline. Protecting the integrity of the game is not something we're going to compromise."

Goodell has no regrets suspending Tom Brady: 'Rules apply to everyone' - CBSSports.com

In bold is what I am most interested in.

Well if rules apply to everybody...then why didn't they seem to apply to the Jets, the Colts or the Bears?

File a grievance.

 

[Alex.]

Goodell can talk the talk all he wants but if the punishment he hands out isn't fair then he's going to lose on appeal. That's about as obvious as anything right now.

What is fair?

 

[Alex.]

I would not trust the NFL for anything it is an oligopolistic market which lends itself to a questionable type of self governance.

That's wonderful, Phallics...but once again you've ducked my question!

Why didn't the Well's Investigation ever ask the Colts if they did anything to that ball that they handed over to officials at half time?

I am not ducking anything. If they fucked up, they fucked up, I have no idea who they should have asked

If they fucked up? Come on, Phallics...there's no question at this point that the Wells investigation was awful. You don't get chastised by a judge in open court if your investigation was done properly.

Th judge used one set of federal rules and he should have used another. The NFL filed for an expedited hearing on appeal, rarely granted and received that. The case should be decided in a couple of months.

The judge based his decision on the CBA itself, Phallics. Yes, the Commissioner of the NFL was given almost unlimited power to impose discipline on teams and players in the latest CBA but included in the language of that agreement is the term "fair". Under the CBA, the Commissioner is required to be "fair" in his decisions! The reason that Judge Berman ruled against the NFL is that he didn't see fairness in the investigation that the NFL conducted and he didn't see fairness in the penalties that were imposed on Tom Brady.

As for when that case will be heard? I've heard February at the earliest...with six months more likely. By the way...once that hearing does occur? Don't hold your breath waiting for a reversal. Courts rarely reverse arbitration decisions but it's even rarer for one that is reversed to be reversed once again. Keep in mind that this last hearing was by a judge that the NFL wanted to hear the case and chose that venue to achieve that. If they couldn't get Berman to side with them...then what makes you think some other judge is going to find enough fault with Berman's ruling to overturn it?

These are the issues to be decided, "whether Berman incorrectly relied on the Federal Arbitration Act instead of the Labor Management Relations Act; whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over how commissioner Roger Goodell interpreted the NFL’s collective bargaining agreement; and whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over Goodell’s rulings."

NFL files paperwork to appeal Judge Berman’s Deflategate ruling - The Boston Globe

That article estimates that the case probably won't be heard until next spring or summer.

Brady was chastised by the Judge for non cooperation as well.

And the Judge quite clearly told the NFL that they can't impose unprecedented penalties for players doing things that they weren't told they couldn't do. If Brady doesn't know that destroying his phone is going to cost him 5 million dollars then the NFL can't impose a suspension that costs him that much for not cooperating! It goes right back to the "fairness" clause that's written into the CBA.

The penalty is separate from the act for me. Whether Brady paid a fine, got suspended or received nothing for his act is immaterial it is how it shows what kind of man and player he is. I just do not view this the way you do.

 

[Oldstyle]

Fair is administering punishment that fits the infraction and doing so in an even handed manner. You can't look the other way when the Colts and Bears break the rules and then hit someone else with million dollar fines, loss of draft picks and the use of a star player for a quarter of the season for a violation of the rules that you can't even prove took place! That's absurd. That's why the NFL lost that appeal!

 

[Alex.]

Fair is administering punishment that fits the infraction and doing so in an even handed manner. You can't look the other way when the Colts and Bears break the rules and then hit someone else with million dollar fines, loss of draft picks and the use of a star player for a quarter of the season for a violation of the rules that you can't even prove took place! That's absurd. That's why the NFL lost that appeal!

Were the Colts and Bears considered by the Judge in this case?

 

[Oldstyle]

That's wonderful, Phallics...but once again you've ducked my question!

Why didn't the Well's Investigation ever ask the Colts if they did anything to that ball that they handed over to officials at half time?

I am not ducking anything. If they fucked up, they fucked up, I have no idea who they should have asked

If they fucked up? Come on, Phallics...there's no question at this point that the Wells investigation was awful. You don't get chastised by a judge in open court if your investigation was done properly.

The judge based his decision on the CBA itself, Phallics. Yes, the Commissioner of the NFL was given almost unlimited power to impose discipline on teams and players in the latest CBA but included in the language of that agreement is the term "fair". Under the CBA, the Commissioner is required to be "fair" in his decisions! The reason that Judge Berman ruled against the NFL is that he didn't see fairness in the investigation that the NFL conducted and he didn't see fairness in the penalties that were imposed on Tom Brady.

As for when that case will be heard? I've heard February at the earliest...with six months more likely. By the way...once that hearing does occur? Don't hold your breath waiting for a reversal. Courts rarely reverse arbitration decisions but it's even rarer for one that is reversed to be reversed once again. Keep in mind that this last hearing was by a judge that the NFL wanted to hear the case and chose that venue to achieve that. If they couldn't get Berman to side with them...then what makes you think some other judge is going to find enough fault with Berman's ruling to overturn it?

These are the issues to be decided, "whether Berman incorrectly relied on the Federal Arbitration Act instead of the Labor Management Relations Act; whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over how commissioner Roger Goodell interpreted the NFL’s collective bargaining agreement; and whether Berman erred in vacating the suspension based on a disagreement over Goodell’s rulings."

NFL files paperwork to appeal Judge Berman’s Deflategate ruling - The Boston Globe

That article estimates that the case probably won't be heard until next spring or summer.

Brady was chastised by the Judge for non cooperation as well.

And the Judge quite clearly told the NFL that they can't impose unprecedented penalties for players doing things that they weren't told they couldn't do. If Brady doesn't know that destroying his phone is going to cost him 5 million dollars then the NFL can't impose a suspension that costs him that much for not cooperating! It goes right back to the "fairness" clause that's written into the CBA.

The penalty is separate from the act for me. Whether Brady paid a fine, got suspended or received nothing for his act is immaterial it is how it shows what kind of man and player he is. I just do not view this the way you do.

You seem to think that at some point the NFL proved that Tom Brady was behind the illegal deflation of game balls, Phallics and I'm sorry to inform you but the Well's Report failed miserably to do that! You want to see what kind of player and man Tom Brady is? He's putting up numbers this season that are better than at any time in his entire career! I'll tell you what kind of man, Tom Brady is...he's the kind of man who gets pissed off when people accuse him of cheating.

 

[Oldstyle]

Fair is administering punishment that fits the infraction and doing so in an even handed manner. You can't look the other way when the Colts and Bears break the rules and then hit someone else with million dollar fines, loss of draft picks and the use of a star player for a quarter of the season for a violation of the rules that you can't even prove took place! That's absurd. That's why the NFL lost that appeal!

Were the Colts and Bears considered by the Judge in this case?

No they were not. That in no way excuses Goodell for making that "holier than thou" statement when he HASN'T applied the rules equally to everyone!

 

[Alex.]

Fair is administering punishment that fits the infraction and doing so in an even handed manner. You can't look the other way when the Colts and Bears break the rules and then hit someone else with million dollar fines, loss of draft picks and the use of a star player for a quarter of the season for a violation of the rules that you can't even prove took place! That's absurd. That's why the NFL lost that appeal!

Were the Colts and Bears considered by the Judge in this case?

No they were not. That in no way excuses Goodell for making that "holier than thou" statement when he HASN'T applied the rules equally to everyone!

Each situation has to rest on it's own merits.

 

[Oldstyle]

Fair is administering punishment that fits the infraction and doing so in an even handed manner. You can't look the other way when the Colts and Bears break the rules and then hit someone else with million dollar fines, loss of draft picks and the use of a star player for a quarter of the season for a violation of the rules that you can't even prove took place! That's absurd. That's why the NFL lost that appeal!

Were the Colts and Bears considered by the Judge in this case?

No they were not. That in no way excuses Goodell for making that "holier than thou" statement when he HASN'T applied the rules equally to everyone!

Each situation has to rest on it's own merits.

Fine, then explain to me why the situation with the Bears heating game balls and the Colts pumping in crowd noise didn't merit punishment? Did both of those situations not provide an advantage for them over their opponents? So why did they receive a pass for what they did?

 

[Oldstyle]

Because I'll tell you exactly what I'd argue if I were the Patriot's lawyer...if Goodell is bound by the CBA to render "fair" decisions in regards to player and team punishments...then he can't hit one team with Draconian sanctions for something he hasn't even proven took place while choosing to ignore proven violations with other teams. There isn't a judge alive that's going to look at that and agree that Goodell has met his burden of "fairness". I'm sorry but the NFL will lose the next appeal for the same reasons they lost the last one!

 

[Oldstyle]

Lawyers obsess about the language that goes into contracts for this very reason. Roger Goodell and the NFL thought they had the power to impose whatever punishment they saw fit on any player or team. They thought that power was iron clad. Unfortunately for them...when you include an ambiguous term like "fair" in a legal contract and don't specify what that word means...a third party (either an arbiter or a judge) may very well be called in to decide what is and isn't "fair".

 

[Alex.]

Fair is administering punishment that fits the infraction and doing so in an even handed manner. You can't look the other way when the Colts and Bears break the rules and then hit someone else with million dollar fines, loss of draft picks and the use of a star player for a quarter of the season for a violation of the rules that you can't even prove took place! That's absurd. That's why the NFL lost that appeal!

Were the Colts and Bears considered by the Judge in this case?

No they were not. That in no way excuses Goodell for making that "holier than thou" statement when he HASN'T applied the rules equally to everyone!

Each situation has to rest on it's own merits.

Fine, then explain to me why the situation with the Bears heating game balls and the Colts pumping in crowd noise didn't merit punishment? Did both of those situations not provide an advantage for them over their opponents? So why did they receive a pass for what they did?

I do not know enough about either situation to give you a cogent answer.

 

[Alex.]

Because I'll tell you exactly what I'd argue if I were the Patriot's lawyer...if Goodell is bound by the CBA to render "fair" decisions in regards to player and team punishments...then he can't hit one team with Draconian sanctions for something he hasn't even proven took place while choosing to ignore proven violations with other teams. There isn't a judge alive that's going to look at that and agree that Goodell has met his burden of "fairness". I'm sorry but the NFL will lose the next appeal for the same reasons they lost the last one!

There is fair and in this situation there is precedent but there is a great deal more when applying the FAA as opposed to the NLRB. What the judge did was reform the contract which I do not find to be correct. The appeals court may affirm and this will be over but under no circumstance will Brady be exonerated in that forum.

 

[Alex.]

Lawyers obsess about the language that goes into contracts for this very reason. Roger Goodell and the NFL thought they had the power to impose whatever punishment they saw fit on any player or team. They thought that power was iron clad. Unfortunately for them...when you include an ambiguous term like "fair" in a legal contract and don't specify what that word means...a third party (either an arbiter or a judge) may very well be called in to decide what is and isn't "fair".

Then terms of the contract are not open to arbitrary interpretation that is what the parties agreed to.