Does God want you to be Rich?

[Hobbit]

But it's unrelated to "Does God want you to be rich?"

It started with some jackass suggesting that rich Christians are hypocrites because they haven't given everything they have and turned to an ascetic lifestyle. It's essentially the view that if there's a single hungry person on the planet, it's immoral to own a nice car.

 

[Joz]

okay? Numbers means less to me - in that context, than what Jesus actually spoke, and was quite clear on. I'm saying my tithe goes to God through my giving to where I feel lead. My portion of my income which is given, is "received" because I'm faithfull to heed His instructions on how and when and to whom gifts are made.

You keep talking about the different KIND of 'giving'. I'm talking about who is receiving the gift.

Tithe, 10% of all income increase was and still is used to support ministers. That is how they are paid.
Offerings are given out of thanksgiving & the sharing of blessings God has bestowed upon a person. It can be to feed & clothe the poor, heal the sick, tuition for a worthy student. It is freewill.

They are two different & distinct things. This is what the Malachi text says:

Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, In what way have we robbed You? In tithes & offerings. "You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation.
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house & prove me now in this, says the Lord of hosts, " if I will not open for you the windows of heaven & pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it".........

 

[Eightball]

Really?

Perhaps someone should tell that to Job! Pleaes back-up this statement with Scripture...

Although the book of Job starts out saying that Job was a righteous man in God's perspective, never the less, there was still room for Job to grow more in faith, as it is for all of us.

Job went through a hellish time, losing family, and his other possessions. He was indeed a materially, rich man.

In that story, it is never intimated that Job sinned while living materially, and being blessed with a very close family that oftem met together, too.

Yet Job was inundated with terrible things......as God allowed Satan to do a "job" on Job, yet with the understanding that not a "hair" on Job's head was to be hurt. God not only loved Job, but also used Job's experience to reveal the very relationship that He/God desired between His human creation and Himself. Total dependency.

Although there is no record that Job envied his riches and family above his love and devotion to God, at the end of the book it was quite apparent that Job was indeed a different man than before his calamities.

Even Job had things to learn, as God took Job through a major eye opening session of showing how He, God, made the mountains, the animals that dwelt upon them, the snow that capped them, the clouds that enshrouded them, the sky that overlooked them, and many more majestic examples. Job was in awe and brought to great humbleness, and humility. Job no longer cried out, "Why me?", he fell silent before God, as he listened to the Lord's mighty rendition of his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.
*
What is one man's earnings is another man's blessings. A simple sentence, but profound in it's implications. It's all in how we see or receive it. What makes the difference?

What the above sentence means is that, whatever we have earned through the labor of our brow, or have received via unearned, as gifts, is not because of us, but because of Him. He is the giver of all good gifts. He lets the rain fall on the farm fields of the good and the evil. He withdraws and gives as He sees fit, according to His deep and often unfathomable wisdom.

Just as we are not converted/saved by our goodness, or our good works, but that it is a gift from Him because of our faith in His Son's work upon the cross in our place, we are to have this very perspective of all of that which we have received in our lives. This includes our intelligence, gifts, talents, spouses, parents, children, possessions, jobs, monetary wealth, etc. We only have because He has allowed. Calamity befalls the beautiful as well as the not-so-pretty people of life.

So do material riches go against a biblical life? Not necessarily, as Hobbit so succinctly mentioned. It's all in how the beholder of those possessions places those possessions in respect to their heart. Are these possessions foremost over all other devotions? Do these alleged riches take the place or hinder devotion, or acknowledgement of one's Creator? That's the key. Is the giver of all things given foremost devotion over everything else?

Now as for what makes us rich, the bible explains endlessly that true riches are of a spiritual nature, and not those things that will last for a time and rust, away, or just plain fade with time. A materially rich person can be the saddest, loneliest person on the face of the earth, as he/she has placed all their "meaning" for life in "having things"; temporal things.

Job positions, intelligence, education, title, can also displace God's importance in one's life. The crying desire for earthly "Atta boys", and "Atta girls", can totally blind the individual from understanding that all that is needed and is already provided from the greatest of all. To spend one's life trying one's hardest to receive accolades, from fellow human beings, whilst all along having already received more than that from God, is pitifull and sad; yet we all are indicted to greater or lesser extents.

There's a book called "Search For Signifcance" by author Robert S. McGee. The book does a wonderful job of revealing/ exposing the deep longing in us humans to find significance for who and what we are. McGee goes on to show how we look in all the wrong places. We try to find personal significance, through our work, relationships, family, title, education, wealth gathering, etc, yet totally miss out on the joy and satisfaction of lasting peace/satisfaction with ourselves.

McGee goes on to show that this searching is a product of our true need to have an unshakeable, stability of life that can't be provided through the "things", as the "things" will inevitably wear out, die, reject us, let us down.. etc.. That need for significance can only me met in our human souls by the very Creator of our beings, who knows ever cell of our being, who knitted us in our mother's womb, and knew us before we were even an Embryo, before time and earth ever existed. Only God can offer a permanent stability for us to rely on as His very nature and being is the "Same yesterday, today, and tomorrow". He will not fade,leave us, reject us, let us down, divorce us, die, ignore us, etc..

So here it is in my finite opinion/observation. Many will call Him, "Lord", but He will say, "I don't know you.". In other words many folks will give their Creator token acknowledgement by word of mouth, yet their true treasure or god, will be Mammon or material riches. In other words, God will be somewhere below personal, title, money, stature, spouse, children, job, leisure, etc.. That's when wealth truly is an impediment to the Christian, biblically.

On the other hand, the Christian that sees, or receives all things in his or her life with the ability to understand that all of these "things" are gifts, that deserve an attitude of gratitude to God, it will be a whole different picture.

Peace and rest only comes to the soul of the man/woman who allows his or her life to be enveloped in the control of their Maker. It indeed is a tall task that requires a life long reckoning of one's will to surrender each day of one's life to the Lordship of God. This surrender is only possible when there is final "giving-up" of internal control over one's destiny. This giving-up includes, job, wealth, family, and especially one's self.

It's involves reckoning on the truth or reality of how things really are. Are we a race that has been "plopped" on this terrestrial ball, to find our own way, or have we been placed here to learn about who we are, in respect to the One has placed us here. Are we fighting against a dependency of being, that is part and partial for our total peace, and ultimate joy while we live this material life?

Maybe Galatians 2:20 can put things in perspective as told by the Apostle to the gentiles, Paul or Saul of Tarsus:

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no lnger I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me."

Well, enjoy your riches, but keep them in perspective. They can disappear as quickly or slowly as they came. There is only one type of riches that endures, and it comes from without, and can truly reside within. It surpasses, Z06 Corvettes, acreage in the country, big bank accounts, high job postions, and perfect familys and marriages.

As the wisest man on earth aside from Jesus said, King Solomon, (eightball-paraphrased), "Seek wisdom over riches, you'll never regret it." (Ecclesiastes).

 

[dmp]

Tithe, 10% of all income increase was and still is used to support ministers. That is how they are paid.
Offerings are given out of thanksgiving & the sharing of blessings God has bestowed upon a person. It can be to feed & clothe the poor, heal the sick, tuition for a worthy student. It is freewill.

They are two different & distinct things. This is what the Malachi text says:

Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, In what way have we robbed You? In tithes & offerings. "You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation.
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house & prove me now in this, says the Lord of hosts, " if I will not open for you the windows of heaven & pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it".........

If I'm giving to "God" I'm giving to God. The 'to whom' is irrelevant.

 

[Joz]

Although the book of Job starts out saying that Job was a righteous man in God's perspective, never the less, there was still room for Job to grow more in faith, as it is for all of us.
Job went through a hellish time, losing family, and his other possessions. He was indeed a materially, rich man.
In that story, it is never intimated that Job sinned while living materially, and being blessed with a very close family that oftem met together, too.

Yet Job was inundated with terrible things......as God allowed Satan to do a "job" on Job, yet with the understanding that not a "hair" on Job's head was to be hurt. God not only loved Job, but also used Job's experience to reveal the very relationship that He/God desired between His human creation and Himself. Total dependency.

Although there is no record that Job envied his riches and family above his love and devotion to God, at the end of the book it was quite apparent that Job was indeed a different man than before his calamities.

Even Job had things to learn, as God took Job through a major eye opening session of showing how He, God, made the mountains, the animals that dwelt upon them, the snow that capped them, the clouds that enshrouded them, the sky that overlooked them, and many more majestic examples. Job was in awe and brought to great humbleness, and humility. Job no longer cried out, "Why me?", he fell silent before God, as he listened to the Lord's mighty rendition of his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.
*.... Calamity befalls the beautiful as well as the not-so-pretty people of life.

I will reiterate that which I said early in this thread; Job was a bet between God & Satan. Granted, a man cannot go through what Job did & not be a changed man, but this wasn't about Job & what he had to learn.

The Heavenly counsel met, and Satan was there also. (v. 6, 7) Referring to Job, God said that "there is none like him in the earth, a perfect & upright man, one that feareth God & escheweth evil" (v.8)
Then Satan proceeded to tell God, Job was faithful to Him only because of God's protection & all the monetary blessings that Job had. That if Job no longer was blessed, he would turn his back on God. God told Satan he was wrong, that Satan could have his way, but he wasn't to touch Job. This story is about trust & faithfulness.

So what do you think Job had to learn? You think he didn't have a right to question what was happening? Even Christ in the Garden cried out to His Father, "Why has thou forsaken me?"

 

[Eightball]

So what do you think Job had to learn? You think he didn't have a right to question what was happening? Even Christ in the Garden cried out to His Father, "Why has thou forsaken me?"

Job was a man, just as we all our fallible humans. He was a man who had faith in God, yet was fallible as we all our. God did not resent Job's fallibility, nor do I.

The story of Job is saved for posterity to reveal not only God's redeeming, faithfulness to man, but also the revealing of the life of man who was "true" to God throughout his life, even though circumstances were anything but, nice.

To say that the center-point is a "bet" that God made with Satan, is to miss the spiritual lesson, and revealing of the Book of Job. It is true that God was proving a point before all of His unseen creation(heavenly hosts both his, and the rebellious 1/3 that fell..including it's self-elected leader, Satan), yet this book was saved for us and future generations to understand that suffering, not, always the result of sin, but may also be the result of God's painful, but necessary means/wisdom to bring us more and more into a pure dependence on Him alone.

Job was not God's "test rat" for all of posterity to enjoy, or learn from. Job was beloved of God. If we see only Job's misfortune/loss without the spiritual/eternal gain of the Job's ultimate outcome, we will be embittered, and forever troubled, losing-out on a great encouraging message.

"Does not a loving father chasten his child" Proverbs 13:24.......is promoted in the scripture. An unchastened child is an unloved child, or the lack of chastening reveals disinterest in the well-being, safety, and growth of wisdom by the parent/parents.

Didn't Peter also say to not be troubled by the fire ordeals or trials that come not as a result of sin, but plainly, surprisingly come out of left field?(1 Pet 4:12) If you continue on, you will see that Peter goes on to show that these unexpected, undeserved trials are signs of sonship, daughtership to God.

Metaphorically, there are so many references to God's love, and suffering in the same text or verse, that it's mind boggling.
*
Also, Job did question God's for allowing all that befell Job, but God also had the right ot reply, which in turn brought Job to silence.

Questioning God, is healthy. Being angry at God is not necessary wrong or sinful either, as it is much healthier for a person to wonder, and question than to accept in ignorance all that they are told to do or believe. God fully wants all of his followers to be literate of who He is, and why He does what he does. To fully know God is to be God, but to be allowed to know Him as He permits is still close to the brink of the "unfathomable", as most folks in the bible were laid prostrate(face on ground) at the slightest revealing of Him(Isaiah, Peter, John, James, Thomas, Paul, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, David, Solomon, etc....).

Job had the right/free will to question, but he also opened the door to God to exploit, Job's motives, and settle any issues in Job's life concerning God's motives or rights.

(Joz: I really enjoy your responses, but please try not to misrepresent or read into what I've said beyond what I've written. I in no way intimated that Job had no right to "question" in my previous post. I have attempted to explain that the more knowledge that we have of our Creator's intentions in our lives can alleviate a lot of questioning/complaining, as we fully understand His intentions, and hope upon with expectations the finish/outcome of the suffering/discomfort.)

The bible is filled with stories of great men and women of faith who were laid low, but out of this, emerged even more profound as human beings. The Christian walk is a walk of continuing maturity in wisdom, in giving love, receiving love, growing of faith towards their Maker, in humility, humbleness, compassion, .......in summary, a maturation with more Christlike qualities, that inevitably bring glory to God.

 

[dmp]

If we see only Job's misfortune/loss without the spiritual/eternal gain of the Job's ultimate outcome, we will be embittered, and forever troubled, losing-out on a great encouraging message.

Side note - I often say similar things about "Scrooge". When People say to me "that man is a Scrooge!" I reply back with "You mean the most generous and happy of souls? One who shares his good fortune and blessings with all? That's GREAT!"

 

[Kagom]

To simply answer everything: No, God wants you to be poor and turning tricks in the back alley for crack.

The first part of that was sincere. I think God wants us to be poor so we can have a better understanding of poverty, humility, and respect.

 

[dmp]

To simply answer everything: No, God wants you to be poor and turning tricks in the back alley for crack.

The first part of that was sincere. I think God wants us to be poor so we can have a better understanding of poverty, humility, and respect.

King David? King Solomon? Both Godly Men in their own regards and were the Bill Gates of their generations.

Poverty doesn't bring humility - some people are arrogant in their suffering.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

King David? King Solomon? Both Godly Men in their own regards and were the Bill Gates of their generations.

Poverty doesn't bring humility - some people are arrogant in their suffering.

Hmm, that brings the question:

Are you more likely to be arrogant when rich or poor?

 

[dmp]

Hmm, that brings the question:

Are you more likely to be arrogant when rich or poor?

I know more POOR people who refuse help, out of pride, than Rich folk.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I know more POOR people who refuse help, out of pride, than Rich folk.

So do you think poverty breeds arrogance, or is arrogance just a side effect of it?

OR does arrogance typically cause poverty?

 

[dmp]

So do you think poverty breeds arrogance, or is arrogance just a side effect of it?

OR does arrogance typically cause poverty?

I'm saying one's financial status doesn't correspond directly to arrogance; Id Est, everyone wants to feel 'special'. Some find that in money, others in suffering, others in high post counts.

Arrogance, among other things, is only related to Man's sinful nature.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

...everyone wants to feel 'special'. Some find that in money, others in suffering, others in high post counts...

How true that is.

 

[CharlestonChad]

everyone wants to feel 'special'. Some find that in money, others in suffering, others in high post counts.

 

[musicman]

Arrogance, among other things, is only related to Man's sinful nature.

A sad but fundamental human truth.

 

[dilloduck]

I think money is far more symbolic of one's desire for security than arrogance.

 

[musicman]

I think money is far more symbolic of one's desire for security than arrogance.

Agreed. I don't see it as NECESSARILY a cause of arrogance.

 

[Eightball]

Agreed. I don't see it as NECESSARILY a cause of arrogance.

There are so many slippery avenues that can lead to arrogance it's mind boggling.

 

[musicman]

There are so many slippery avenues that can lead to arrogance it's mind boggling.

So true, Eightball. And it's an easy fall, since it's inherent in our nature.