Does everyone realize....

[daveman]

The blue screen of death does not seem to respond to positive attitude.

And yet, oddly, it seemed to work fine when you typed that long post where you said you didn't have the time to look for stats.

I've learned some neat tricks over time. Like the copy and paste. first you write it on word perfect and then you copy it to past here. That saves alot of time, because you never know when that special moment will arrive. You lose enough stuff, copy is your friend. Stay in one place, when you start moving from site to site your screwed, it seems to enhance the chances of the blue screen. Learn to type fast is the last thing, honestly I do spell better than this.

Have you wiped your hard drive and reloaded the OS?

 

[daveman]

Ohh about halfway.

Many seem to think that the market is our economy.

Other than IPO's and such the stiock market is like trading baseball cards.
With the exception of some dividends.

While a great deal of money exchanges hands in the market, it's really only an indicator of the health of the economy. If the business who produce good and services are doing well, the market does well.

Yes an indicator of the global economy Which does not only include the US economy.
The US economy can be dropping and the market going up.

True.

 

[sparky]

entrepreneur --Another name for people who usually so suck at taking direction, that they elect to work for themselves mostly because they really have no choice.

true, when people ask me if i work for myself i usually tell them that nobody else wants to put up with me

Small businesses, (I mean REAL small businesses, not the horse-hokey definition the SBA calls "small") like much like most of the working class, are taking it on the neck while BIG CAPITAL gobbles up most of the American-dream pie.

i'm so small have to sit on a pillow to drive.....

Most small businesses rise and fall with the economy.


When their customers are broke, so are they.

Some of you folks need to stop pissing on our shoes and calling it rain, know what I mean?

Well the thing is, if you're on the bottom of the economic food chain, you tend to realize fairly quickly when things change. The only resilience we have is in the fact that we simply don't have far to fall, juxtaposed to the aquistions , modes of liquidity, or legislative opportunities bigger biz can entertain

For instance, we'll watch the big boys leave to set up camp offshore(and i've seen this my entire working carear) , we'll watch as they're bailed out, we'll watch the tax havens & corporate welfare without ever being able to step up to that plate ourselves.

Meanwhile, we're subjected to the same bueracratic demons, the epa, osha, the irs , etc that they are , so when people say 'America , love it or leave it' in context of biz, the sm biz owners gotta love it, 'cause we can't leave it as bigger biz is doing.

So terms like socialism, fascism, corporatism, collectivism, cronyism (which are used so very wrong here daily) tend to have an up close and personal realtionship with those of us in the economic trenches

~S~

 

[editec]

The bourgeois CLASS (that's the truly small business owners, the professionals, the people who are making very good money but nothing like multibillionaire money) is NOT the problem, THEY ARE THE SOLUTION.

It is THAT CLASS that is most getting screwed in this nation.

The sooner the bourgeois class realizes that they are NOT part of the MASTER CLASS (and never is going to be, either!) , the sooner they stop identifying with the UBER-MASTERS who are screwing THEM over almost as much as (maybe even more than) the masters have screwed over the WORKING CLASS, the sooner this nation gets back on track.

Folks...why do you think that our progressive tax system is set up like it is, anyway?

Because the MASTER CLASS needs political allies so that when calls to TAX THEM are made, there is enough political support to repress TRUE PROGRESSIVE TAXATION, that's why.

So they saddle the WORKING AFFLUENT CLASS (the bourgeois class) with the same tax rate as the UBER-WEALTHY'.

The bourgeois pay far too much the national tax burden, and that bearly progressive tax policy is why they do so.

Somebody in the $250,000 a year income ought NOT to be paying the same rate as people making $2,500.000, $25,000,000, $250,000,000 or $2,500,000,000...

But they ARE BEING TAXED AT THE SAME RATE as thise in the TRULY stupendously wealthy class.

The problem isn't that we have progressive taxations, folks.

The problem is that our tax rates are not nearly progressive enough.

IF our system of taxes WERE truly progessive, the bourgeois class wouldn't be paying nearly as much taxes as it does today, and the USA NOT be so deeply in debt.

The bourgeois is the goose that lays the golden egg.

And the uber-weathy class has gamed the tax codes (after all it is that UBER-WEALTHY class that owns Congress) such that it is TAXING the BOURGEOUIS TO DEATH

 

[Ravi]

Taxes don't hurt businesses? Really?

But this week's threat by Terrence Duffy, executive chairman of CME Group Inc., to move at least some exchange jobs out of state, is part of a rebellion that has been brewing since the state temporarily raised its corporate income tax in January. The city's third major exchange also signaled Thursday that it may consider moving out of the state.

--

CME Group, at its annual meeting Wednesday, estimated the tax hike will cost it about $50 million a year.​

That doesn't effect the business itself. It is a tax on profit. The profit is still there, if it isn't, there isn't a tax.

So these companies, after enjoying years of tax benefits are paying back the states by leaving when they are asked to temporarily pitch in?

Sad.

 

[sparky]

The tax code is truly screwed Editec. Any sm biz that sits before an accountant will probably lament the constant changes arising annually to be addressed. It's also a political kicking post for people who have no grasp on it, which would be the majority of Americans for anyone who's attempted reading them.

But all one needs know is, the cap is $250K here, which basically allows the 250Mil and up crowd to not even be on irs radar

Those same individuals are the same ones that have outsourced our jobs, legislated zero tariffs , sactioned safety protocals sm biz will never meet , and polluted sm biz with what we can't compete with

So i would ask posters here just who they'd like to see hang out the 'Hiring' shingle?

All those empty factories and buildings in your town greasin' foriegners

Or......All us sm biz people without that choice....

 

[spectrumc01]

And yet, oddly, it seemed to work fine when you typed that long post where you said you didn't have the time to look for stats.

I've learned some neat tricks over time. Like the copy and paste. first you write it on word perfect and then you copy it to past here. That saves alot of time, because you never know when that special moment will arrive. You lose enough stuff, copy is your friend. Stay in one place, when you start moving from site to site your screwed, it seems to enhance the chances of the blue screen. Learn to type fast is the last thing, honestly I do spell better than this.

Have you wiped your hard drive and reloaded the OS?

What I have done is get a back up protable hard drive and regularly save all my stuff onto it. The computer guys have told me that the computer is too old and on it's last leg. My son tells me I can get a tower for 300 dollars that is way better than what I have now. When I disappear off of the boards it will be because the computer is gone, and I won't have the cash to replace it. Sad isn't it, work two jobs and still can't afford to replace a $300.00 computer. I sure hope that doesn't sound like whining. Maybe I can get congress to add extra hours into the day so I can work a third job so I can get a new $300.00 tower. I know I shouldn't be so lazy.

 

[xsited1]

Does everyone realize that not everyone can be a small business owner. There has to be owners and workers for the system to work. The balance between the two is precarious at best.

...

This is the perfect time for you to do a little experiment: Become a business owner. When you've got, say, 10-20 employees, let us know what you discovered.

 

[daveman]

Taxes don't hurt businesses? Really?

But this week's threat by Terrence Duffy, executive chairman of CME Group Inc., to move at least some exchange jobs out of state, is part of a rebellion that has been brewing since the state temporarily raised its corporate income tax in January. The city's third major exchange also signaled Thursday that it may consider moving out of the state.

--

CME Group, at its annual meeting Wednesday, estimated the tax hike will cost it about $50 million a year.​

That doesn't effect the business itself. It is a tax on profit. The profit is still there, if it isn't, there isn't a tax.

So these companies, after enjoying years of tax benefits are paying back the states by leaving when they are asked to temporarily pitch in?

Sad.

Keep beating the dog. Great idea.

 

[daveman]

I've learned some neat tricks over time. Like the copy and paste. first you write it on word perfect and then you copy it to past here. That saves alot of time, because you never know when that special moment will arrive. You lose enough stuff, copy is your friend. Stay in one place, when you start moving from site to site your screwed, it seems to enhance the chances of the blue screen. Learn to type fast is the last thing, honestly I do spell better than this.

Have you wiped your hard drive and reloaded the OS?

What I have done is get a back up protable hard drive and regularly save all my stuff onto it. The computer guys have told me that the computer is too old and on it's last leg. My son tells me I can get a tower for 300 dollars that is way better than what I have now. When I disappear off of the boards it will be because the computer is gone, and I won't have the cash to replace it. Sad isn't it, work two jobs and still can't afford to replace a $300.00 computer. I sure hope that doesn't sound like whining. Maybe I can get congress to add extra hours into the day so I can work a third job so I can get a new $300.00 tower. I know I shouldn't be so lazy.

So what are you doing to make yourself more valuable to your employers? NOTE: Complaining doesn't make you more valuable.

 

[xsited1]

Taxes don't hurt businesses? Really?

But this week's threat by Terrence Duffy, executive chairman of CME Group Inc., to move at least some exchange jobs out of state, is part of a rebellion that has been brewing since the state temporarily raised its corporate income tax in January. The city's third major exchange also signaled Thursday that it may consider moving out of the state.

--

CME Group, at its annual meeting Wednesday, estimated the tax hike will cost it about $50 million a year.​

That doesn't effect the business itself. It is a tax on profit. The profit is still there, if it isn't, there isn't a tax.

So these companies, after enjoying years of tax benefits are paying back the states by leaving when they are asked to temporarily pitch in?

Sad.

This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read about business which means it must be another Ravi Troll Post. Keep up the good work.

 

[spectrumc01]

Does everyone realize that not everyone can be a small business owner. There has to be owners and workers for the system to work. The balance between the two is precarious at best.

...

This is the perfect time for you to do a little experiment: Become a business owner. When you've got, say, 10-20 employees, let us know what you discovered.

Unfortunately, I'm kept so busy trying to keep my head above water working the two jobs I have now, that if I stop, I drown. When I graduated HS you didn't need a college education to get a decent job to provide for your family, but in todays economy it is required to work anywhere. But to go back to school would mean quitting a job or two and that I can't do unless I want to live in a cardboard box. I make too much to qualify for school assistance, and yet don't make enough to qualify for anything to ease the financial burden of going to school. I'm at the center of the perfect storm, Age, Sex, Race, Income level, all are working against me.

 

[Ravi]

Taxes don't hurt businesses? Really?

But this week's threat by Terrence Duffy, executive chairman of CME Group Inc., to move at least some exchange jobs out of state, is part of a rebellion that has been brewing since the state temporarily raised its corporate income tax in January. The city's third major exchange also signaled Thursday that it may consider moving out of the state.

--

CME Group, at its annual meeting Wednesday, estimated the tax hike will cost it about $50 million a year.​

That doesn't effect the business itself. It is a tax on profit. The profit is still there, if it isn't, there isn't a tax.

So these companies, after enjoying years of tax benefits are paying back the states by leaving when they are asked to temporarily pitch in?

Sad.

This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read about business which means it must be another Ravi Troll Post. Keep up the good work.

I can't help but notice that you add nothing to the discussion and in fact only attack.

Big surprise!

 

[Ravi]

Taxes don't hurt businesses? Really?

But this week's threat by Terrence Duffy, executive chairman of CME Group Inc., to move at least some exchange jobs out of state, is part of a rebellion that has been brewing since the state temporarily raised its corporate income tax in January. The city's third major exchange also signaled Thursday that it may consider moving out of the state.

--

CME Group, at its annual meeting Wednesday, estimated the tax hike will cost it about $50 million a year.​

That doesn't effect the business itself. It is a tax on profit. The profit is still there, if it isn't, there isn't a tax.

So these companies, after enjoying years of tax benefits are paying back the states by leaving when they are asked to temporarily pitch in?

Sad.

Keep beating the dog. Great idea.

Perhaps you could be a little clearer.

 

[xsited1]

That doesn't effect the business itself. It is a tax on profit. The profit is still there, if it isn't, there isn't a tax.

So these companies, after enjoying years of tax benefits are paying back the states by leaving when they are asked to temporarily pitch in?

Sad.

This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read about business which means it must be another Ravi Troll Post. Keep up the good work.

I can't help but notice that you add nothing to the discussion and in fact only attack.

Big surprise!

So are you admitting your post was serious? I just can't believe it. I can't believe that anyone would be dumb enough to believe that taxes don't hurt businesses. But I must admit that I'm having an increasingly difficult time persuading others that you're just trolling. I keep getting PMs like "no, Ravi is not trolling" and "yes, she really is that stupid." Please tell me they're wrong and you're just trolling.

 

[spectrumc01]

This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read about business which means it must be another Ravi Troll Post. Keep up the good work.

I can't help but notice that you add nothing to the discussion and in fact only attack.

Big surprise!

So are you admitting your post was serious? I just can't believe it. I can't believe that anyone would be dumb enough to believe that taxes don't hurt businesses. But I must admit that I'm having an increasingly difficult time persuading others that you're just trolling. I keep getting PMs like "no, Ravi is not trolling" and "yes, she really is that stupid." Please tell me they're wrong and you're just trolling.

If you believe that taxes hurt business as much as you say they do...Do you believe that businesses should pay taxes at all?

 

[FiscalSanity]

First post on these forums, so please be gentle with me. First off, as an accountant I'm in the odd position of sitting on both sides of the fence in this discussion. I work for a small corporation (25 employees) so I'm one of the workers, but the very nature of my job put's me on the same level as the owners when it comes to knowing (and being responsible for) what's going on with the business and it's money.

First off, there IS a fundamental disconnect in today's companies between employee and executive (read owner) compensation. Basic pay rates between basic labor, skilled labor, and executive labor really don't reflect the value each particular job provides to the company, and the scale is definately tilted in the executives favor currently. It's a basic supply and demand situation-thanks to off shoring of jobs, poor immigration policies, and a generally poor educational system we have a country where there is huge supply of unskilled or low skilled workers competing for a steadily shrinking pool of jobs, and the same things is going on with the skilled workforce, though to a lesser extent. Large pool of labor + small job pool= lower pay rates for workers. The problem is that in many cases that lower pay for workers (which translates into lower labor costs for the business) has led to correspondingly higher pay for executives. And I'm not talking about profits-I'm talking about the salary they pay themselves as an "employee" of the company.

The reason for this is actually quite simple when you think about it from a tax perspective. Most small businesses don't actually wan't to generate a profit, because most small businesses are set up as some sort of limited liability corporation, which means the owners profits end up being taxed twice. It's (usually) much cheaper for them to just make sure that all the profits get paid out as wages and taxed at their normal tax rate rather then being first subjected to corporate income tax and then again to personal income tax. Most small business owners also have a tendency to have a large amount of personal expense that ends up being paid through the company, which they then try to write off as various types of business expenses to decrease the company profits and tax bill.

So yes, the original poster is right that there is a serious disparity between pay for workers and owners, though I don't think it really exists for truly small businesses (say 1-10 employees and less then a million in annual sales). Those businesses are actually a lot closer to the way pay scales should work, though even some of them have a higher degree of disparity between the owners and their lowest paid workers then i feel should exist.

Now, as for businesses being effected by taxes. If you think taxes don't cost every business a fortune you've never listened to a corporate accountant. Income taxes in and of themselves don't cost the company anything, since they are taxes on the profits which rightfully belong to the owers/shareholders, but if you think complying with the income tax laws doesn't cost a lot I'd suggest you go take a look at what kind of salary an experienced tax accountant pulls down in your area. While you're at it you need to find one that knows sales taxes, and if you plan on doing any internet selling they need to know the rules for every state you're going to ship products into(and those rules change all the stinking time). And if you're planning to deal with imports/exports you need to find one that knows the tax rules governing whatever the products are. I'm lucky enough to live in the state (Colorado) that has the dubious distinction of having the most complicated sales taxes in the nation. I spend nearly half my time each month on sales taxes, and since we get the joy of being audited by every individual city and county I spend at least a couple of months each year tied up with auditors. Your either going to end up hiring someone like me to do that work, or your going to pay a CPA firm a premium rate to do it for you, but either way it's going to cost the company.

 

[California Girl]

First post on these forums, so please be gentle with me. First off, as an accountant I'm in the odd position of sitting on both sides of the fence in this discussion. I work for a small corporation (25 employees) so I'm one of the workers, but the very nature of my job put's me on the same level as the owners when it comes to knowing (and being responsible for) what's going on with the business and it's money.

First off, there IS a fundamental disconnect in today's companies between employee and executive (read owner) compensation. Basic pay rates between basic labor, skilled labor, and executive labor really don't reflect the value each particular job provides to the company, and the scale is definately tilted in the executives favor currently. It's a basic supply and demand situation-thanks to off shoring of jobs, poor immigration policies, and a generally poor educational system we have a country where there is huge supply of unskilled or low skilled workers competing for a steadily shrinking pool of jobs, and the same things is going on with the skilled workforce, though to a lesser extent. Large pool of labor + small job pool= lower pay rates for workers. The problem is that in many cases that lower pay for workers (which translates into lower labor costs for the business) has led to correspondingly higher pay for executives. And I'm not talking about profits-I'm talking about the salary they pay themselves as an "employee" of the company.

The reason for this is actually quite simple when you think about it from a tax perspective. Most small businesses don't actually wan't to generate a profit, because most small businesses are set up as some sort of limited liability corporation, which means the owners profits end up being taxed twice. It's (usually) much cheaper for them to just make sure that all the profits get paid out as wages and taxed at their normal tax rate rather then being first subjected to corporate income tax and then again to personal income tax. Most small business owners also have a tendency to have a large amount of personal expense that ends up being paid through the company, which they then try to write off as various types of business expenses to decrease the company profits and tax bill.

So yes, the original poster is right that there is a serious disparity between pay for workers and owners, though I don't think it really exists for truly small businesses (say 1-10 employees and less then a million in annual sales). Those businesses are actually a lot closer to the way pay scales should work, though even some of them have a higher degree of disparity between the owners and their lowest paid workers then i feel should exist.

Now, as for businesses being effected by taxes. If you think taxes don't cost every business a fortune you've never listened to a corporate accountant. Income taxes in and of themselves don't cost the company anything, since they are taxes on the profits which rightfully belong to the owers/shareholders, but if you think complying with the income tax laws doesn't cost a lot I'd suggest you go take a look at what kind of salary an experienced tax accountant pulls down in your area. While you're at it you need to find one that knows sales taxes, and if you plan on doing any internet selling they need to know the rules for every state you're going to ship products into(and those rules change all the stinking time). And if you're planning to deal with imports/exports you need to find one that knows the tax rules governing whatever the products are. I'm lucky enough to live in the state (Colorado) that has the dubious distinction of having the most complicated sales taxes in the nation. I spend nearly half my time each month on sales taxes, and since we get the joy of being audited by every individual city and county I spend at least a couple of months each year tied up with auditors. Your either going to end up hiring someone like me to do that work, or your going to pay a CPA firm a premium rate to do it for you, but either way it's going to cost the company.

Yea, yea, yea..... the OWNER of the business shouldn't get the rewards for his risk, his work or his sacrifice....the 'workers' should.

Screw that.

 

[FiscalSanity]

California,

Whatever happened to the idea of BOTH sides getting rewarded? I don't begrudge the owners making money, but what's wrong with them sharing some of that reward? If profits are up and you're going to give everyone (including yourself) a raise, why should you consider it fair to give yourself a 5% raise when you're giving everyone else 2%? Or better yet, how do you justify not giving out raises to anyone because profits were down when the only reason that profits were down was because you gave yourself a bigger bonus then had been budgeted for?

Don't get me wrong, I do see both sides of this. Every employee feels like they should be making more then they should, and if you paid them all what they want you wouldn't have enough to feed yourself. However, when you're deciding your own pay that same tendency to over value your own contributions still exists, and it's very easy for a business owner to cross the line between compensating themselves fairly and being greedy. It's also far too easy for owners to think of employee's as nothing more then a cost that's coming out of their profits instead of realizing that their employees drive their profits, and that better paid employees tend to be more productive and therefore generate higher profit margins.
The owner/employee relationship can be a win/win situation for both sides if the owners can put aside their focus on short term profit and concentrate on the long term instead.

 

[spectrumc01]

California,

Whatever happened to the idea of BOTH sides getting rewarded? I don't begrudge the owners making money, but what's wrong with them sharing some of that reward? If profits are up and you're going to give everyone (including yourself) a raise, why should you consider it fair to give yourself a 5% raise when you're giving everyone else 2%? Or better yet, how do you justify not giving out raises to anyone because profits were down when the only reason that profits were down was because you gave yourself a bigger bonus then had been budgeted for?

Don't get me wrong, I do see both sides of this. Every employee feels like they should be making more then they should, and if you paid them all what they want you wouldn't have enough to feed yourself. However, when you're deciding your own pay that same tendency to over value your own contributions still exists, and it's very easy for a business owner to cross the line between compensating themselves fairly and being greedy. It's also far too easy for owners to think of employee's as nothing more then a cost that's coming out of their profits instead of realizing that their employees drive their profits, and that better paid employees tend to be more productive and therefore generate higher profit margins.
The owner/employee relationship can be a win/win situation for both sides if the owners can put aside their focus on short term profit and concentrate on the long term instead.

Fiscal, trying to explain anything to her is almost impossible. She is a fanatic for the owners, as she came equiped with her own silver spoon. She illustrates my point perfectly, the business owner is widening the gap, don't care about their employees and it doesn't have to be that way (let me say all owners are not like this). Perhaps they should spend a little more time studying the French Revolution and a little less on economics. Economics won't show up at their door one day but the revolution might.

Thanks for your input, it was very enlightening. Learned alot. I think your the only accountant that publically admitted it on this board.