Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[ScienceRocks]

You'd think within America everyone would be interested in finding out the truth. Our checks and balances are still working if the congress can make sure the executive is still functioning within the law.

Why would anyone not want the congress holding the executive down within its constitutional limits?

 

[Vast LWC]

There was no proof of illegal acts in Iran Contra either prior to the Congressional hearings and prior to the investigation by a special prosecutor.

There most certainly was.

Iran Contra Scandal

After a leak by Iranian Mehdi Hashemi, the Lebanese magazine Ash-Shiraa exposed the arrangement on November 3, 1986. This was the first public reporting of the weapons-for-hostages deal.

The operation was discovered after an airlift of guns was downed over Nicaragua.

Eugene Hasenfus, who was captured by Nicaraguan authorities, initially alleged in a press conference on Nicaraguan soil that two of his coworkers, Max Gomez and Ramon Medina, worked for the Central Intelligence Agency.

He later said he did not know whether they did or not.

The Iranian government confirmed the Ash-Shiraa story, and ten days after the story was first published, President Ronald Reagan appeared on national television from the Oval Office on November 13 stating:

"My purpose was... to send a signal that the United States was prepared to replace the animosity between [the U.S. and Iran] with a new relationship... At the same time we undertook this initiative, we made clear that Iran must oppose all forms of international terrorism as a condition of progress in our relationship. The most significant step which Iran could take, we indicated, would be to use its influence in Lebanon to secure the release of all hostages held there."

At the time, there was an arms embargo in effect against Iran. Giving Iran weapons was, specifically, against the law.

So was providing support to the Nicaraguan "Contra" terrorists.

News Flash: The PURPOSE of Congressional hearings is to determine the circumstances of any given actions of government and to determine whether there are inproprieties, wrong doings, things that need correcting, or illegal activities. If there is a possibility of wrong doing, then a special prosecutor is requested.

Or perhaps you think Congress should not exercise its constitutional responsibility to exercise oversight UNLESS there is PROOF of illegal activities?

And perhaps you think that contradictory testimony and/or refusal to release certain unclassified documents subpoenaed by Congress should not raise questions as to whether there are illegal activities. At least if the subjects are Democrats. Okay if they are Republicans, yes?

I think that Congress should not be wasting time and resources pursuing an large-scale investigation in a case where there isn't any indication of wrongdoing at all.

And as far as I know, there was only one incident of contradictory letters to congress, and the mistaken information was rectified a few months after the initial letter.

The only point of this portion of the investigation is to try to bring Holder up on perjury charges.

It has nothing at all to do with finding out what went wrong with the operation, or avoiding making the same mistakes in the future.

 

[Vast LWC]

And Holder WAS. He didn't comply with LEGAL Congressional subpoena.

Keep up with the circular logic will you?

Congress has better things to do than prosecute BASEBALL PLAYERS since Congress doesn't fund them like they do DOJ Asswipe.

Now that is a funny post.

You're accusing ME of circular logic, by saying you know Holder is guilty because he has given you no evidence of his guilt.

Because THAT's not "Circular logic", right?

What's up? Did you just learn that term, and you're trying it out for the first time?

 

[taichiliberal]

REALITY CHECK:


GOP Oversight Chair Admits There Is No Evidence Of White House Involvement In Fast And Furious


WALLACE: Do you have any evidence that White House officials were involved in these decisions, that they knowingly misled Congress, and are involved in a cover-up?

ISSA: No, we don’t. And what we are seeking are documents that we know to exist, February 4 to December [2011] that are in fact about [murdered Border Patrol agent] Brian Terry’s murder, who knew, and why people were lying about it…

WALLACE: I want to be clear, because we’ve got to get out, no evidence that the White House is involved in the cover up?

ISSA: And I hope they don’t get involved.


Oversight Chair No Evidence White House Involvement | ThinkProgress

Just in case you overlooked this, folks.

Think progress? Soros? Really?

SPARE US

translation: T cannot refute or disprove the information contained in the link (no less the quote provided), so like the dishonest intellectual coward that he is, T just bluffs and blusters ad nauseum.

Ahh, the willfully ignorant and proud neocon/teabagger flunkie that is "T"....prime meat for Rove, Norquist and the like. Carry on.

 

[The T]

Just in case you overlooked this, folks.

Think progress? Soros? Really?

SPARE US

translation: T cannot refute or disprove the information contained in the link (no less the quote provided), so like the dishonest intellectual coward that he is, T just bluffs and blusters ad nauseum.

Ahh, the willfully ignorant and proud neocon/teabagger flunkie that is "T"....prime meat for Rove, Norquist and the like. Carry on.

YOU don't know what you're posting about.

 

[The T]

And Holder WAS. He didn't comply with LEGAL Congressional subpoena.

Keep up with the circular logic will you?

Congress has better things to do than prosecute BASEBALL PLAYERS since Congress doesn't fund them like they do DOJ Asswipe.

Now that is a funny post.

You're accusing ME of circular logic, by saying you know Holder is guilty because he has given you no evidence of his guilt.

Because THAT's not "Circular logic", right?

What's up? Did you just learn that term, and you're trying it out for the first time?

I highlighted Powers of Congress over DOJ and thier RIGHT on behalf of the taxpayer. Holder and Obama Failed and behind the false curtain of EP.

Son? YOU LOSE.

 

[Vast LWC]

Well hell then. Should we wait until there is a conviction in order to hold the trial? That seem to be what you are arguing here. And nobody should be allowed to investigate to see if a trial is warranted?

Tell me, what PROOF did we have that Nixon was complicent in the Watergate Scandal prior to the Congressional hearings? It was eventually proved that he didn't plan it and he didn't know about it in advance. But it was proved beyond reasonable doubt that he did participate in the coverup of it. Should Congress have not held hearings to determine that given that until the hearings they had zero evidence that Nixon was in any way implicated?

There was a break in at the DNC headquarters on June 17, 1972.

Five men were arrested attempting to plant illegal wiretaps on the phone lines.

The burglars were convicted.

From the Wiki:

On June 19, 1972, it was publicly revealed that one of the Watergate burglars was a Republican Party security aide.

On August 1, a $25,000 cashier's check earmarked for the Nixon re-election campaign was found in the bank account of one of the Watergate burglars.

All five of the Watergate burglars were directly or indirectly tied to the 1972 CRP, causing Judge Sirica to suspect a conspiracy involving higher-echelon government officials.

On March 23, 1973, Judge Sirica read the court a letter from Watergate burglar James McCord alleging perjury had been committed in the Watergate trial, and defendants had been pressured to remain silent. Trying to make them talk, Sirica gave Hunt and two burglars provisional sentences of up to 40 years. On March 28 on Nixon's orders, aide John Ehrlichman told Attorney General Richard Kleindienst that nobody in the White House had prior knowledge of the burglary. On April 13, Magruder told U.S. attorneys that he had perjured himself during the burglars' trial, and implicated John Dean and John Mitchell.
Two days later, Dean told Nixon that he had been cooperating with the U.S. attorneys. On that same day, U.S. attorneys told Nixon that Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Dean and other White House officials were implicated in the coverup.
On April 30, Nixon asked for the resignation of H. R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman, two of his most influential aides, both of whom were indicted, convicted and ultimately sentenced to prison. He fired White House Counsel John Dean, who went on to testify before the Senate and became the key witness against the president.

Yes, there was evidence of illegal acts before the Congressional hearings happened, there was a whole load of evidence.

There was also clear motivation, and intent. Two things that are completely lacking in the Fast and Furious case.

 

[Foxfyre]

You'd think within America everyone would be interested in finding out the truth. Our checks and balances are still working if the congress can make sure the executive is still functioning within the law.

Why would anyone not want the congress holding the executive down within its constitutional limits?

Those who do not want the blind faith they place in their leaders challenged. Ever. And they will use any manner of circular logic and pretend all manner of things are so no matter how strongly evidence points to a different conclusion.

But there was plenty to question whether illegal activities were occuring in the Fast and Furious operations. Certainly there were sufficient irregularities to warrrant hearings to investigate the allegations even if we go with LWC's assertion that Congress should not exercise its oversight unless there is PROOF of illegal activities. It came to a head when a cache of illegal weapons was found near the body of the dead border patrol agent.

. . . .William Newell, former special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, took responsibility for overseeing much of the "Fast and Furious" operation. He said the investigation was part of a larger operation designed to identify and prosecute high level Mexican drug cartel members responsible for large-scale gun trafficking across the border.

Under questioning on Capitol Hill, Newell acknowledged that ATF agents knew early in the operation that weapons were illegally crossing the border, but that the operation was allowed to continue. The failure to weigh the risk posed by the weapons falling into the hands of drug cartels was a major oversight, he said.

"I should have had more risk assessments throughout the case," he said. "I recognize that."

Newell's supervisor, William McMahon, deputy assistant director of the ATF, also apologized for a lack of proper oversight on the investigation. . . .
'Fast And Furious' Gun Trafficking Operation Slammed By ATF Agents

 

[Vast LWC]

I highlighted Powers of Congress over DOJ and thier RIGHT on behalf of the taxpayer. Holder and Obama Failed and behind the false curtain of EP.

Son? YOU LOSE.

I'm sorry, what?

Of course Congress has the right to investigate whatever they want.

The question is, should they be wasting taxpayer resources holding massive investigations into operations where there is no indication of any wrongdoing?

And the answer is clearly no.

But they are. For political gain. And that is Bullshit.

 

[Foxfyre]

I highlighted Powers of Congress over DOJ and thier RIGHT on behalf of the taxpayer. Holder and Obama Failed and behind the false curtain of EP.

Son? YOU LOSE.

I'm sorry, what?

Of course Congress has the right to investigate whatever they want.

The question is, should they be wasting taxpayer resources holding massive investigations into operations where there is no indication of any wrongdoing?

And the answer is clearly no.

But they are. For political gain. And that is Bullshit.

Relating back to one of T's posts: Vast LWC, please meet the wall of my house. You have a lot in common.

 

[Vast LWC]

You'd think within America everyone would be interested in finding out the truth. Our checks and balances are still working if the congress can make sure the executive is still functioning within the law.

Why would anyone not want the congress holding the executive down within its constitutional limits?

Those who do not want the blind faith they place in their leaders challenged. Ever. And they will use any manner of circular logic and pretend all manner of things are so no matter how strongly evidence points to a different conclusion.

But there was plenty to question whether illegal activities were occuring in the Fast and Furious operations. Certainly there were sufficient irregularities to warrrant hearings to investigate the allegations even if we go with LWC's assertion that Congress should not exercise its oversight unless there is PROOF of illegal activities. It came to a head when a cache of illegal weapons was found near the body of the dead border patrol agent.

. . . .William Newell, former special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, took responsibility for overseeing much of the "Fast and Furious" operation. He said the investigation was part of a larger operation designed to identify and prosecute high level Mexican drug cartel members responsible for large-scale gun trafficking across the border.

Under questioning on Capitol Hill, Newell acknowledged that ATF agents knew early in the operation that weapons were illegally crossing the border, but that the operation was allowed to continue. The failure to weigh the risk posed by the weapons falling into the hands of drug cartels was a major oversight, he said.

"I should have had more risk assessments throughout the case," he said. "I recognize that."

Newell's supervisor, William McMahon, deputy assistant director of the ATF, also apologized for a lack of proper oversight on the investigation. . . .
'Fast And Furious' Gun Trafficking Operation Slammed By ATF Agents

Yeah...

Under questioning on Capitol Hill, Newell acknowledged that ATF agents knew early in the operation that weapons were illegally crossing the border, but that the operation was allowed to continue. The failure to weigh the risk posed by the weapons falling into the hands of drug cartels was a major oversight, he said.

What he failed to say was that the ATF team brought the names of forty suspects to the prosecutor to get indictments, and the prosecutor would not give them the indictments, as they lacked evidence.

So, there was nothing they could do to stop the weapons from getting across the border.

The requests for indictments would be a matter of public record.

So, what exactly are you accusing them of? Having their hands tied?

 

[Vast LWC]

Relating back to one of T's posts: Vast LWC, please meet the wall of my house. You have a lot in common.

Well, we do have a rather close relationship...

Seeing as how I keep banging my head against it when talking to you people.

 

[The T]

I highlighted Powers of Congress over DOJ and thier RIGHT on behalf of the taxpayer. Holder and Obama Failed and behind the false curtain of EP.

Son? YOU LOSE.

I'm sorry, what?

Of course Congress has the right to investigate whatever they want.

The question is, should they be wasting taxpayer resources holding massive investigations into operations where there is no indication of any wrongdoing?

And the answer is clearly no.

But they are. For political gain. And that is Bullshit.

Relating back to one of T's posts: Vast LWC, please meet the wall of my house. You have a lot in common.

Agreed wholed heartedly. Vast LWC is in Circuliar mode.

 

[The T]

Relating back to one of T's posts: Vast LWC, please meet the wall of my house. You have a lot in common.

Well, we do have a rather close relationship...

Seeing as how I keep banging my head against it when talking to you people.

So YET in your world of circuliar logic? YOU lay the same smelly MULE Fritters.

WE aren't playing any longer. There IS no talking to YOU.

Congrats. YOU have become Persona Non-Grata.

Pat yerself on the back in your loss of applauding Holder and Obama in thier Criminal activities.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUkBOuFJgr4]GINO VANNELLI - Persona Non Grata - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Vast LWC]

So YET in your world of circuliar logic? YOU lay the same smelly MULE Fritters.

WE aren't playing any longer. There IS no talking to YOU.

Congrats. YOU have become Persona Non-Grata.

Pat yerself on the back in your loss of applauding Holder and Obama in thier Criminal activities.

Oh, stop it.

I'm one of the least confrontational, and most rational posters on the left on this board.

Well, maybe BDBoop and one or two others have me beat, but I'm up there.

If you stop debating all the posters like me, you may as well just stop debating altogether.

 

[The T]

This message is hidden because Vast LWC is on your ignore list.

 

[Vast LWC]

LOL. Wow.

Hope he has fun in the little bubble world he's creating.

Good Work.

If anyone sends him this message, tell him I promise I won't make fun of him when he eventually shuts off his ignore.

 

[Foxfyre]

You'd think within America everyone would be interested in finding out the truth. Our checks and balances are still working if the congress can make sure the executive is still functioning within the law.

Why would anyone not want the congress holding the executive down within its constitutional limits?

Those who do not want the blind faith they place in their leaders challenged. Ever. And they will use any manner of circular logic and pretend all manner of things are so no matter how strongly evidence points to a different conclusion.

But there was plenty to question whether illegal activities were occuring in the Fast and Furious operations. Certainly there were sufficient irregularities to warrrant hearings to investigate the allegations even if we go with LWC's assertion that Congress should not exercise its oversight unless there is PROOF of illegal activities. It came to a head when a cache of illegal weapons was found near the body of the dead border patrol agent.

Yeah...

Under questioning on Capitol Hill, Newell acknowledged that ATF agents knew early in the operation that weapons were illegally crossing the border, but that the operation was allowed to continue. The failure to weigh the risk posed by the weapons falling into the hands of drug cartels was a major oversight, he said.

What he failed to say was that the ATF team brought the names of forty suspects to the prosecutor to get indictments, and the prosecutor would not give them the indictments, as they lacked evidence.

So, there was nothing they could do to stop the weapons from getting across the border.

The requests for indictments would be a matter of public record.

So, what exactly are you accusing them of? Having their hands tied?

Perhaps you missed the part that the agent himself admitted they KNEW illegal activities were occurring and the FAILED TO ACT on that knowledge?

And perhaps your sources overlooked the indictments that HAVE occurred but only after Brian Terry was murdered. Of course you are increasingly avoiding revealing your sources aren't you.

By the end of July 2010, the Fast and Furious investigation was largely complete. The agents had sent prosecutors 20 names for immediate indictment, Jaime Avila's among them. His purchase of the three WASR-10s were listed among his criminal acts. On Aug. 17, 2010, ATF agents met in Phoenix with prosecutors, including U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke. According to two people present, the ATF presented detailed evidence, including the fact that their suspects had purchased almost 2,000 guns, and pushed for indictments. A month later, on Sept. 17, an ATF team—this time including ATF director Kenneth Melson—met with prosecutors again and again pushed for action. The sides agreed to aim for indictments by October, according to one person in attendance.

But as weeks and then months passed, prosecutors did not issue indictments. The ATF agents grew increasingly concerned. By December, prosecutors had dropped Avila's name from the indictment list for what they deemed a lack of evidence.

Only when Terry, the U.S. Border Patrol agent, was murdered in December 2010 did the prosecutors act. Voth's agents arrested Avila within 24 hours of Terry's death. On Jan. 19, 2011, a federal grand jury indicted him and 19 other suspects. (Avila has since pleaded guilty to dealing guns without a license).
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Reasoning with partisans goes only so far in my world. Yours is fortunately more tolerant than mine.

Good on ya.

Ahh, I see.

I'm pointing out the fact that taxpayer money is being wasted on an investigation where even the lead investigator admits that he has no evidence of wrongdoing or even a strong suspicion of wrongdoing by the people being investigated...

And I'm the partisan.

That Bizarro planet you live on a nice place?

Face the facts your president might be very corrupted and his gun running program might have been something other than finding bad guys with guns.

 

[The T]

Reasoning with partisans goes only so far in my world. Yours is fortunately more tolerant than mine.

Good on ya.

Ahh, I see.

I'm pointing out the fact that taxpayer money is being wasted on an investigation where even the lead investigator admits that he has no evidence of wrongdoing or even a strong suspicion of wrongdoing by the people being investigated...

And I'm the partisan.

That Bizarro planet you live on a nice place?

Face the facts your president might be very corrupted and his gun running program might have been something other than finding bad guys with guns.

OBAMA is in Deep Doo-doo---so is Holder.

LWC can't handle that fact regardless of his poltical bias.

But what he doesn't understand is that MOST OF US expect this out of the Congress with oversight regardless of PARTY of the Temporary OCCUPANT of 1600 Penn Ave.

More's the pity for him.