Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Dr Grump]

Oh, wow! We have an English teacher in our midst..

Economics, but why quibble.

The sure sign of a failed argument...picking on grammar...whoops!

Everything is a sign of a failed argument with you - save a rational point or a quick wit, that is....

Tenure? Must be...

To pee or not to pee...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

honestly, honey... if people were actually engaging in reasonable discussion on this issue, i'm always happy to participiate on that level.

but when faced with rightwingnut hackery, i treat people the way they deserve to be treated and respond to them in terms they can understand.

Now Jillian tell me something what is wrong with this picture. holder has been asked to produce some papers that was for thought that obama did not have access to now obama invokes executive privilege, and with that on papers that the president had access to are protected this way. Holder said obama did not have knowledge of fast and the furious. But now we find out obama did.
Is there something wrong with that?

reb. if it was about him giving documents, i'd probably agree he should for transparency.

but not the way this is being used by issa.

and if asked by someone who was even slightly worth the discussion (unlike the way i've been talked to by people who haven't gotten through fifth grade) i'd say i don't think the president should have claimed executive privilege because that's equally as political.

don't you think we'd do better to actually start from the beginning, with mukasey, and move on and see where we went wrong?

rather than issa using his subpoena power (which i can't wait for him to lose) to play rightwingnut politics and feed red meat to 'the base'.

What do you mean the way it's being done? if there is nothing to hide holder should have handed over the paper long ago.
Fast and the furious was a program started under obama's and holders watch. They knew something about it and congress is trying to find out if it was with criminal intent. Neither obama nor holder are above the law.

 

[WillowTree]

Jillian is the only person I know in real life for real on this board. not only is she a lawyer, but she is a very successful one

How do you know when somebody loses an argument? look up the word ad hominem Uncensored. I always thought you a baffoon..but to advertise it on a messageboard, well, why not? Once a dumb ************, always a dumb ************...

Just a word of advice? If you're going to call someone "dumb" it's best to not do it in a post where you use baffoon instead of buffoon. Just saying...

Great! The typo police! In your first post after the word "Also" there should have been a comma...just sayin'

.
Uh,, the U and the A are far apart on the keyboard.. you spelled it wrong.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

actually. the executive privilege claim is about givng the finger to issa and his fellow rightwingnut hacks.

they interviewed holder 7 times. they had piles and piles of documents. the emails they wanted had nothing to do with the death of the officer. and they still could have seen everything if they stopped the rightwingnut hack stuff and dropped the contempt nonsense. if they were interested in "fast and furious*, they'd have subpoenaed Mukasey... in whose justice department UNDER BUSH, the program started.

oh... and stop telling people they shouldn't comment on our politics. or feel free to stop mentioning any country other than the U.S.

mmmkay?

Either you are uniformed or a damned liar. "Fast and Furious" was not started under Bush. Based on your posts on this subject, I choose damned liar.

The tactic was developed under the Bush term.


then the local guys re employed it when asked to stop the gun flow.

What was started under bush was stopped under bush in 2007, obama and holder both new that what was started under bush did not work but yet they started fast and the furious in 2009 without the knowledge of thew Mexican government.
At least with Bush wide receiver was done with the working knowledge of the Mexican government.

 

[auditor0007]

You bet your ass I think FF is worse than Watergate.

Fast & Furious leaves hundreds of dead in its wake. One of whom was a US Border Patrol Agent.

I hope heads roll on this.

I thought guns don't kill people, only people kill people. Since guns don't kill people, this border patrol agent would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from, because guns don't kill people. Yes I am being a bit facetious, but the fact is that is what many gun toting Americans will claim, and yet these are the same people jumping all over F&F. As for the border patrol agent who was killed, yes he most likely would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from. It seems most people have lost sight of that fact.

 

[Dr Grump]

Just a word of advice? If you're going to call someone "dumb" it's best to not do it in a post where you use baffoon instead of buffoon. Just saying...

Great! The typo police! In your first post after the word "Also" there should have been a comma...just sayin'

.
Uh,, the U and the A are far apart on the keyboard.. you spelled it wrong.

I spell lots of things wrong...

That aside I was multi tasking. Had I actually sat down and thought about it, I would have done Ok. I didn't....shrug...

As my first editor said to me when I spotted a typo in one of her pieces -"meh, that's for the proof readers"....

 

[Dr Grump]

You bet your ass I think FF is worse than Watergate.

Fast & Furious leaves hundreds of dead in its wake. One of whom was a US Border Patrol Agent.

I hope heads roll on this.

I thought guns don't kill people, only people kill people. Since guns don't kill people, this border patrol agent would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from, because guns don't kill people. Yes I am being a bit facetious, but the fact is that is what many gun toting Americans will claim, and yet these are the same people jumping all over F&F. As for the border patrol agent who was killed, yes he most likely would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from. It seems most people have lost sight of that fact.

I have mentioned the bolded part at least twice in this thread....

 

[Oldstyle]

There is no cover-up. There is no conspircy. It's a political witch hunt in an election year to stir the shit pot and inflame the ditto-base.

There is definitely a cover-up. Is there an attempt to use this scandal in an election year to inflame people against this Administration? Of course. Does that mean that the investigation is unwarranted? Hardly.

The bottom line is that Fast & Furious was an ill advised (and that's being charitable!) plan run by Eric Holder's DOJ, which blew up in the faces of the Obama Administration and they have been doing everything they can to dodge the falling debris.

But being honest, don't you think - from what I have seen - that Holder is furious. Not about people trying to 'get' him, but that this went ahead. I reckon he knew bugger-all about this and has been on the back foot ever since....

I have so little respect from Eric Holder, Doc...going back to his arranging the Marc Rich pardon in the waning hours of the Clinton Administration...that I really don't think he would have a problem with Fast & Furious OTHER than not wanting to take responsibility for it when Brian Terry was killed and other ATF agents blew the whistle on the whole fiasco. Holder is an ideologue who seems to believe that the end justifies the means. Fast & Furious was the result of what happens when you wear ideological blinders.

Why Holder is our Attorney General in the first place is something that I've never been able to understand. The whole Marc Rich thing was such a complete travesty of justice and such a blatant misuse of the Presidential pardon that anyone involved should have been "radioactive" when it came to ever serving in a position of authority in the government ever again.

 

[Oldstyle]

You bet your ass I think FF is worse than Watergate.

Fast & Furious leaves hundreds of dead in its wake. One of whom was a US Border Patrol Agent.

I hope heads roll on this.

I thought guns don't kill people, only people kill people. Since guns don't kill people, this border patrol agent would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from, because guns don't kill people. Yes I am being a bit facetious, but the fact is that is what many gun toting Americans will claim, and yet these are the same people jumping all over F&F. As for the border patrol agent who was killed, yes he most likely would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from. It seems most people have lost sight of that fact.

I have mentioned the bolded part at least twice in this thread....

With all due respect, Doc...that's rather convoluted thinking. If I shot someone and you shot them too...am I less guilty because YOUR bullet would have resulted in death even if mine wasn't there? Come on...

 

[Dr Grump]

There is definitely a cover-up. Is there an attempt to use this scandal in an election year to inflame people against this Administration? Of course. Does that mean that the investigation is unwarranted? Hardly.

The bottom line is that Fast & Furious was an ill advised (and that's being charitable!) plan run by Eric Holder's DOJ, which blew up in the faces of the Obama Administration and they have been doing everything they can to dodge the falling debris.

But being honest, don't you think - from what I have seen - that Holder is furious. Not about people trying to 'get' him, but that this went ahead. I reckon he knew bugger-all about this and has been on the back foot ever since....

I have so little respect from Eric Holder, Doc...going back to his arranging the Marc Rich pardon in the waning hours of the Clinton Administration...that I really don't think he would have a problem with Fast & Furious OTHER than not wanting to take responsibility for it when Brian Terry was killed and other ATF agents blew the whistle on the whole fiasco. Holder is an ideologue who seems to believe that the end justifies the means. Fast & Furious was the result of what happens when you wear ideological blinders.

Why Holder is our Attorney General in the first place is something that I've never been able to understand. The whole Marc Rich thing was such a complete travesty of justice and such a blatant misuse of the Presidential pardon that anyone involved should have been "radioactive" when it came to ever serving in a position of authority in the government ever again.

Totally agree about Marc Rich.But to be honest, as an outsider looking in, I find it fascinating that somebody has this power to pardon somebody. I don't see the logic in it. While Rich is the most obvious example, there are plenty from both sides of the aisle where this has happened.

As for ideological blinders, that is partially true. I think Holder needs to put his cards on the table and see where they fall. However, I can't get past the WMDs that weren't there, or even the pow-wow held at the beginning of Bush's presidency whereby the suppliers of power (talking electricity etc) were allowed input into energy policy without the public being told what that input was....

BTW, haven't had much interaction with you, but to the chagrin of some here, you political system drives me nuts.

 

[thanatos144]

I don't subscribe to the nutty NRA conspiricy theory.

It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out what happens when you give military grade light armor defeating weapons to criminals.

There is no excuse for this type of activity, and the Administration knows it. That is the reason they're covering this up.

Fast and Furious High-Powered Assault Weapons Were Seized at Drug Cartel Enforcer’s Home | The Gateway Pundit

Did you know Fast and Furious guns brought down a military helicopter? - National drug cartel | Examiner.com

Mexican Military Helicopter Shot Down With BATF .50 Caliber Rifle Sold to Drug Cartels : Deadline Live With Jack Blood

Mexico Gun-Running Operation Enhanced Cartels

There is no cover-up. There is no conspircy. It's a political witch hunt in an election year to stir the shit pot and inflame the ditto-base.

 

[MuadDib]

I do think F&F is worse. Nobody died in the Watergate scandal.

 

[BlindBoo]

I think it's a very interesting question. Most were very willing to crucify the President over Watergate. So what about 'Fast & Furious?' What do you think?

Watergate was a two bit burglary that never hurt anyone and it brought down a coniving president. Fast and Furious was a major league failure of selling arms to criminals, failing to track them, leading to deaths af many people including the death of on of our own border patrol agents.

Both of the crimes were covered up by, as we have seen through the Executive Privilege, the Whitehouse intending to stop the investigation. By far, this is more serious and SHOULD bring this president DOWN just as the coverup brought down Nixon.

Sure was but the investigation into it led to some major illegal campaign activities by the Nixon Administration.....

There is an investigation going on(not Issa's witch hunt). If it turn out that investigation uncovers illegal activity those involved should be punished accordingly.

 

[Dr Grump]

I thought guns don't kill people, only people kill people. Since guns don't kill people, this border patrol agent would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from, because guns don't kill people. Yes I am being a bit facetious, but the fact is that is what many gun toting Americans will claim, and yet these are the same people jumping all over F&F. As for the border patrol agent who was killed, yes he most likely would have been killed regardless of where the gun came from. It seems most people have lost sight of that fact.

I have mentioned the bolded part at least twice in this thread....

With all due respect, Doc...that's rather convoluted thinking. If I shot someone and you shot them too...am I less guilty because YOUR bullet would have resulted in death even if mine wasn't there? Come on...

I agree with you.....to a point.

With rare exception on this thread, you are thinking about what went on. The whole plank of this argument is that Agent Terry died as a DIRECT result of this program. Make no mistake, people seem to be saying, without F&F Agent Terry would still be alive.

Let's forget the FACT that ballistics say that a gun from F&F cannot be connected to him yet.

Let's pretend for one iota that F&F didn't exist and it never happened and ask yourself this question. Let us say the operation Terry was involved with had gone ahead anyway. And let us say he would have run into these thugs anyway. Would they have or have not been armed? I think they would have. That makes F&F moot IMO. No matter what the situation they would have been armed.

Thus me thinking this is just partisan hackery....

 

[bobgnote]

Watergate was worse, though not as bad as the Bush admin lying to the american people with the fabricated "they have WMD's and we know where they are" BS to go to war with Iraq.

Listen troll.. There was not 'Bush lying us into war'... you're just another in a long line of parrots without a clue

As to this being worse or not... I will need to do much more reading before I would make that judgement call

'Curveball,' Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, Iraqi Informant: I'm Proud My WMD Lies Led To Iraq War

The Guardian newspaper published an interview Wednesday with Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, who has been identified as the informer called "Curveball," whose claims about weapon labs formed part of then-U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell's speech to the U.N. Security Council in 2003, shortly before the war began.

'Curveball': I lied about WMD to hasten Iraq war - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

Al-Janabi’s information was used in part by the U.S. as justification for the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. More than 100,000 people, most of them Iraqi civilians, have died in the war. The U.S. began to withdraw its troops from Iraq last summer.

-----------------------

Read, DD. If you are a little D, please don't make it, with a D, 'cause if you do it, with a D, your kid will be D-D-Deee!

If you create a destructive, genetic loop, your offspring may suffer deformities or mental defects. They might turn out, like King Joffrey, in Game of Thrones. What a guy!

The US has inbreeding, in its foreign policy. The CIA helped start the Korean War, by overflying China, from Tibet and Taiwan, since 1948. China grabbed Tibet, 1949, and nobody smart likes how Chiang's 2 million Mandarins went to Taipei, to kill a lot of then 18 million Cantonese, so China has 1000 missiles pointed, at all of them.

MacArthur said South Korea was out of our protectorate. The North invaded, 1950. The UN forces then pushed, all the way to the Yalu, and the Chinese attacked. The fighting ended in a truce, 1953, but the war is not over.

The CIA supported the Shah, Saddam, and UBL, to start trouble, which will bust our budget, SOON. Saddam didn't work out, did he. GHW Bush got cold feet, on the road to Basra, so along comes GW, and he was threatening Saddam, before the 9/11 attack. GW and his crew used the lying informant, to pretend Saddam had WMDs and more yellowcake, since the Israelis bombed Iraq, 1981, but this was a false-flag operation.

The FBI and CIA both knew Al Queda was busy, and the 9/11 attackers were in the US, but they withheld information, as more false-flag op, so now we have a DHS and we just had 8 and a half years of war in Iraq, complete with thousands of dead and a lot of depleted uranium all over Iraq, and we can't pay for it.

We still have a limited war in Afghanistan, which will fail, while we support Israel, which blew the USS Liberty away, 1967, then invaded Arabs, to steal more land.

So what was worse, Fast and Furious, which started during the GW Bush administration, or the lies to Congress, which started, during the GW Bush administration?

It all looks like Bush family in-breeding, to me! So if you are a little D, please don't make it with a D, 'cause if you make a little D, your kid might be GW Bush. What's your damn excuse, for being such a fan, of inbreeding?

While we're at it, I wonder why Halen can't make a lot of music. Maybe it's the way they stole all the riffs, like all the other classic rockers and punkers, so the bands either play a sync tape, in concert, or they sound like shit on toast! Listen to Gaga, I don't give a shit. You are DDD, going by a DD-handle, so sit on it and spin, Army-dog!

 

[HUGGY]

Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?


Better question.. Has there EVER been a scandal on the scale of "The War On Drugs"?

 

[MuadDib]

Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?


Better question.. Has there EVER been a scandal on the scale of "The War On Drugs"?

Never! It's the greatest policy failure in American history and never has a government program done more to take away liberty and seize money and property.

 

[HUGGY]

Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?


Better question.. Has there EVER been a scandal on the scale of "The War On Drugs"?

Never! It's the greatest policy failure in American history and never has a government program done more to take away liberty and seize money and property.

30 years ago I would have agreed with you. Now with the treasure and lives we have wasted to get exactly NOWHERE on this fiasco I truely believe that this is the most blatant policy failure of all time in human history. Nothing else even comes remotely close. Maybe even the holocaust or the Cambodian or Stalins policies. You have to look at the policies world wide as a whole on drugs because it is ALL driven by U S policy on drugs.

I'm pretty sure it's the CHAMPEEEEN!

 

[thanatos144]

Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?


Better question.. Has there EVER been a scandal on the scale of "The War On Drugs"?

The thread isnt about you wanting to smoke a bong dipshit.

 

[HUGGY]

Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?


Better question.. Has there EVER been a scandal on the scale of "The War On Drugs"?

The thread isnt about you wanting to smoke a bong dipshit.

This thread is not about "The War On Drugs". Really?

I don't do illegal drugs asswipe.