Do You Support A Woman's Right To Choose?

[Blues Man]

Your argument seems to be since not all babies survive, the ones who dare to survive still have no right to life unless their mother says so. What you are saying is since natural abortion occurs, it is right to force its occurrence. However, is it right to conclude since adults are killed, it is right to force its occurrence--or does that only apply to babies.

The unborn cannot speak for themselves and some greatly resent that some speak up in their behalf.

By the way, no need to mock baby boys in "girls" dresses. Elastic, zippers, snaps were not invented roughly until the mid 1800s, so gowns were the most practical way to dress a baby whose diapers needed frequent changing. (No Pampers in those days, either.)

We sanction the killing of adults all the time.

 

[JoeB131]

Your argument seems to be since not all babies survive, the ones who dare to survive still have no right to life unless their mother says so. What you are saying is since natural abortion occurs, it is right to force its occurrence. However, is it right to conclude since adults are killed, it is right to force its occurrence--or does that only apply to babies.

I'm saying fetuses/zygotes/embryos aren't babies. Period. Full stop, and the end of the day, it's the woman's decision if she wants to go through with it.

The concept that you need to treat a fetus like a person has a lot of implications for law, where the fetus MUST have more rights than the woman it is inside. Do we charge women with child abuse if they smoke during pregnancy? Or if they eat foods that aren't nutritional.

Now, this is probably fine with the religious right, they never saw women as equals to start with.

By the way, no need to mock baby boys in "girls" dresses. Elastic, zippers, snaps were not invented roughly until the mid 1800s, so gowns were the most practical way to dress a baby whose diapers needed frequent changing. (No Pampers in those days, either.)

YOu miss my point entirely. The reason they didn't have purpose designed clothes for baby boys was that half of them didn't survive infancy.

The term "Memento" photography comes from the practice of photographing dead children because that's all you had of them... that's how common infant mortality was.

The reason the child is clearer than the adults in this picture was that being dead, "hold still" was a lot easier.

This idolization of the child is a really recent phenomenon. Our Victorian Ancestors would have considered a Gender Reveal Party to be absurd.

The unborn cannot speak for themselves and some greatly resent that some speak up in their behalf.

Naw, what I resent is that you religious whackadoodles give power to some pretty fucking awful people on the promise that some day, they'll force women to give birth to babies they don't want and can't afford.

50 years since Roe, the Republicans never get it overturned, but the rich always get their tax cuts.

 

[Blues Man]

I'm saying fetuses/zygotes/embryos aren't babies. Period. Full stop, and the end of the day, it's the woman's decision if she wants to go through with it.

The concept that you need to treat a fetus like a person has a lot of implications for law, where the fetus MUST have more rights than the woman it is inside. Do we charge women with child abuse if they smoke during pregnancy? Or if they eat foods that aren't nutritional.

Now, this is probably fine with the religious right, they never saw women as equals to start with.



YOu miss my point entirely. The reason they didn't have purpose designed clothes for baby boys was that half of them didn't survive infancy.

The term "Memento" photography comes from the practice of photographing dead children because that's all you had of them... that's how common infant mortality was.

View attachment 550050
The reason the child is clearer than the adults in this picture was that being dead, "hold still" was a lot easier.

This idolization of the child is a really recent phenomenon. Our Victorian Ancestors would have considered a Gender Reveal Party to be absurd.




Naw, what I resent is that you religious whackadoodles give power to some pretty fucking awful people on the promise that some day, they'll force women to give birth to babies they don't want and can't afford.

50 years since Roe, the Republicans never get it overturned, but the rich always get their tax cuts.

There is a point during gestation where the fetus is a baby.

That point is when it is viable outside the womb.

 

[Mac-7]

Semantics

Your semantics

You deny the DNA of God and God’s science

 

[Meriweather]

I'm saying fetuses/zygotes/embryos aren't babies.

And...adults are not teens.
Teens are not toddlers.
Toddlers are not infants.

Women do not say, I am having a fetus. They say, I am having a baby.

Which has more value: Life or sex with no repercussions/responsibility?

An adult does not just pop into existence and nor does your definition of a baby. It is the process of life. Abortion is favoring the ending of a life.

 

[ding]

There is a point during gestation where the fetus is a baby.

That point is when it is viable outside the womb.

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being...[this] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion, it is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence...." - Dr Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down's Syndrome, and Nobel Prize Winner, Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981



"An individual human life begins at conception when a sperm cell from the father fuses with an egg cell from the mother, to form a new cell, the zygote, the first embryonic stage. The zygote grows and divides into two daughter cells, each of which grows and divides into two grand-daughter cells, and this cell growth/division process continues on, over and over again. The zygote is the start of a biological continuum that automatically grows and develops, passing gradually and sequentially through the stages we call foetus, baby, child, adult, old person and ending eventually in death. The full genetic instructions to guide the development of the continuum, in interaction with its environment, are present in the zygote. Every stage along the continuum is biologically human and each point along the continuum has the full human properties appropriate to that point."
Dr. William Reville, University College Cork, Ireland



“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.” Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D. was first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization



“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.” Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council



You want me to keep going?

 

[JoeB131]

There is a point during gestation where the fetus is a baby.

That point is when it is viable outside the womb.

And if we were having the discussion there, that might be a different issue. A fetus isn't viable until about 23 weeks into the pregnancy, and very few abortions are performed at that point. When they are, it's usually because the woman was too poor to get the issue addressed earlier or because something has gone horribly wrong with the pregnancy. Neither should be a good reason to deny a woman her right to choose.

 

[JoeB131]

And...adults are not teens.
Teens are not toddlers.
Toddlers are not infants.

Women do not say, I am having a fetus. They say, I am having a baby.

They only say that when they actually WANT a baby. When they don't want a baby, they call it, "that appointment I have on Tuesday".

Which has more value: Life or sex with no repercussions/responsibility?

False choice. People should be free to make their own decisions.

When I was still in the service, I knew this girl who was engaged to one of my fellow NCO's. Devout Catholic, Asian-American, stilled lived at home with her parents... and when her boyfriend didn't make good on his promises to marry her, she "Forgot" to take her birth control. When an unexpected pregnancy didn't convince him to make good on his promise, right into the medical waste container it went.

Why? She didn't want her parents to know she wasn't a still a virgin at 22.

And this wasn't a stupid woman. She was college educated. She just made dumb choices... and I don't think that making abortion illegal would make her choices any smarter.

An adult does not just pop into existence and nor does your definition of a baby. It is the process of life. Abortion is favoring the ending of a life.

No, abortion is just recognizing the reality that if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she'll find a way to not be pregnant.

The Philippines have the kind of abortion laws you religious nutters want. Despite that, Filipinas have up to 500-800K abortions a year, a higher abortion rate than American women. About 4200 a year are hospitalized due to abortion-related injuries. Women leave their aborted fetuses on the stairs of churches because they fear the imaginary sky pixie so much, but they still have the abortions.

There are also about a million abandoned children in the Philippines, many of whom are exploited as sex workers or slave labor.

So much for "the value of life".

Me, I like living in a prosperous first world country where women are free to make their own reproductive decisions, thank you very much. Contraception is the key to prosperity.

 

[Blues Man]

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being...[this] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion, it is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence...." - Dr Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down's Syndrome, and Nobel Prize Winner, Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981



"An individual human life begins at conception when a sperm cell from the father fuses with an egg cell from the mother, to form a new cell, the zygote, the first embryonic stage. The zygote grows and divides into two daughter cells, each of which grows and divides into two grand-daughter cells, and this cell growth/division process continues on, over and over again. The zygote is the start of a biological continuum that automatically grows and develops, passing gradually and sequentially through the stages we call foetus, baby, child, adult, old person and ending eventually in death. The full genetic instructions to guide the development of the continuum, in interaction with its environment, are present in the zygote. Every stage along the continuum is biologically human and each point along the continuum has the full human properties appropriate to that point."
Dr. William Reville, University College Cork, Ireland



“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.” Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D. was first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization



“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.” Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council



You want me to keep going?

For one I never said that a federalized egg wasn't a human cell with a unique set of geteics.

It's a collection of human cells that is a potential human being. At what point that potential is realized is the question.

 

[Blues Man]

And if we were having the discussion there, that might be a different issue. A fetus isn't viable until about 23 weeks into the pregnancy, and very few abortions are performed at that point. When they are, it's usually because the woman was too poor to get the issue addressed earlier or because something has gone horribly wrong with the pregnancy. Neither should be a good reason to deny a woman her right to choose.

I think there needs to be a point where the child is protected by law. It's just stupid to say that one week before birth that the fetus isn't a child but one second after it is.

 

[ding]

For one I never said that a federalized egg wasn't a human cell with a unique set of geteics.

It's a collection of human cells that is a potential human being. At what point that potential is realized is the question.

As Dr. William Reville said, "Every stage along the continuum is biologically human and each point along the continuum has the full human properties appropriate to that point." It's not a potential human, he or she is a human with potential. A genetically distinct new human being. One that has never existed before and will never exist again.

You are literally dehumanizing human life for the express purpose of rationalizing you son't support ending human lives.

That's what the Nazis did and that;s what slave owners did and that's what you are doing.

 

[Blues Man]

As Dr. William Reville said, "Every stage along the continuum is biologically human and each point along the continuum has the full human properties appropriate to that point." It's not a potential human, he or she is a human with potential. A genetically distinct new human being. One that has never existed before and will never exist again.

You are literally dehumanizing human life for the express purpose of rationalizing you son't support ending human lives.

That's what the Nazis did and that;s what slave owners did and that's what you are doing.

And the cells I shit out every morning are biologically human

There is a difference between a human cell or collection of human cells and a human being.

 

[Meriweather]

There are also about a million abandoned children in the Philippines

Interesting you have to go to the Philippines to argue for abortion in the U.S.

 

[ding]

And the cells I shit out every morning are biologically human

There is a difference between a human cell or collection of human cells and a human being.

That's the stupidest thing you have ever said. The cells you shit out are not a human being, let alone a new distinct human being.

You clearly do not know the difference between a human cell / collection of human cells and a human being.

What part of at conception a NEW GENETICALLY DISTINCT HUMAN BEING HAS COME INTO EXISTENCE did you not understand. Pick up any embryology textbook and you will find that statement.

But thanks for proving you dehumanize certain human lives like the Nazis and slave owners did.

 

[Blues Man]

That's the stupidest thing you have ever said. The cells you shit out are not a human being, let alone a new distinct human being.

You clearly do not know the difference between a human cell / collection of human cells and a human being.

What part of at conception a NEW GENETICALLY DISTINCT HUMAN BEING HAS COME INTO EXISTENCE did you not understand. Pick up any embryology textbook and you will find that statement.

But thanks for proving you dehumanize certain human lives like the Nazis and slave owners did.

A new genetically unique POTENTIAL human being.

A single genetically unique cell is NOT a human being it is a single genetically unique cell.

 

[ding]

A new genetically unique POTENTIAL human being.

A single genetically unique cell is NOT a human being it is a single genetically unique cell.

Nope. A human being with potential. Learn some science.

Again...

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being...[this] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion, it is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence...." - Dr Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down's Syndrome, and Nobel Prize Winner, Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981



"An individual human life begins at conception when a sperm cell from the father fuses with an egg cell from the mother, to form a new cell, the zygote, the first embryonic stage. The zygote grows and divides into two daughter cells, each of which grows and divides into two grand-daughter cells, and this cell growth/division process continues on, over and over again. The zygote is the start of a biological continuum that automatically grows and develops, passing gradually and sequentially through the stages we call foetus, baby, child, adult, old person and ending eventually in death. The full genetic instructions to guide the development of the continuum, in interaction with its environment, are present in the zygote. Every stage along the continuum is biologically human and each point along the continuum has the full human properties appropriate to that point."
Dr. William Reville, University College Cork, Ireland



“The zygote is human life….there is one fact that no one can deny; Human beings begin at conception.” Landrum B. Shettles, M.D., P.h.D. was first scientist to succeed at in vitro fertilization



“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.” Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

 

[ding]

A new genetically unique POTENTIAL human being.

A single genetically unique cell is NOT a human being it is a single genetically unique cell.

Do you have any science that backs up your belief? Anything at all that you could quote?

 

[wamose]

A persons rights end where another's begin and the right to life trumps all other rights. Please stop trying to justify killing innocent, helpless babies. You choicers act like a baby is no different than a piece of candy.

 

[Blues Man]

Do you have any science that backs up your belief? Anything at all that you could quote?

I already acknowledged the genetics


One cell does not a human being make. It is a POTENTIAL human being that may or may not develop.

 

[Blues Man]

A persons rights end where another's begin and the right to life trumps all other rights. Please stop trying to justify killing innocent, helpless babies. You choicers act like a baby is no different than a piece of candy.

At what point does a cell become a baby?