Do Natural Rights Exist Without Government ?

[Quantum Windbag]

Ask an abused child or woman.

They have legal rights-----does that prevent abuse ?

Of course not, but those 'inalienable rights' allow for redress and punitive action to be taken against the abuser.

It also allows for the woman to defend herself.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The philosophy of liberty is irrelevant at that point. Philosophies are not going to change the fact he has no liberty. Even if in this case he had rights what good are they?

If the slave believes he is subject to the master, that the master tells him what rights he has and does not have, his spirit will eventually be broken. It matters because without liberty life does not exist.

Why did your forefathers fight for freedom?

That very well could be true that the spirit could be broken if the slave gives in to the belief that its ok to be a slave. However, we are now moving to another area and explaining why rights are important. Its like I pointed out earlier. Rights simply operate on the power of suggestion.

My forefathers fought for freedom because they didn't want to be slaves. Some probably believed they had a right to be free to bolster their commitment to the notion. I have no qualms with that.

My rights are not subject to your suggestions. Funny thing, neither were your forefathers.

 

[dilloduck]

So that slave in the basement on the isolated island community, he has no rights because someone is controlling him. His liberty is subject to the whims of his master? The fact that he is in chains, means his rights to be free have been revoked?

I'm not asking about what he is physically capable of at that point, I am asking about the philosophy of liberty.

Some people will tell you that the slave has a right to be freed. He may have. What good does that do him ?

If he has a right to be free I can come by and kill the people that are enslaving him in order to set him free, if he doesn't, I have to walk away.

No you don't---you are perfectly free to free him. There are laws against slavery

 

[Asclepias]

Correct, which is why the US Constitution is so brilliant. They did their best to allow for abusive governmental power to usurp the individual. We should be on our collective knees thanking the heavens.

Well personally I don't particularly admire the 3/5ths thingy.

The 3/5ths thingy was put in to prevent slave holders from increasing the census too much, and to get less than honorable states to join the Union. It was a temporary measure that was righted in time. The Constitution allowed for that to be changed. Think about it, my friend.

I have and it doesnt make sense. Why didnt they do away with slavery at the time of the constitution? If the rights are so inalienable why are you bargaining with less than honorable states?

 

[Pennywise]

I'm pretty sure they did. Its a very attractive belief and one that gave them the hope to persevere through the abuse.

No, it's truth. Despite what the government claimed.

You should be able to prove a truth. I have a problem with calling it a truth unless I can see evidence.

You can never see the evidence if you do not recognize the creator as an entity. Call it God or Nature. You cannot consider such heady issues without philosophy as a major contributing element.

 

[dilloduck]

They have legal rights-----does that prevent abuse ?

Of course not, but those 'inalienable rights' allow for redress and punitive action to be taken against the abuser.

It also allows for the woman to defend herself.

LOL I bet any woman defends herself whether she has the right to or not.

 

[Asclepias]

Some people will tell you that the slave has a right to be freed. He may have. What good does that do him ?

If he has a right to be free I can come by and kill the people that are enslaving him in order to set him free, if he doesn't, I have to walk away.

No you don't---you are perfectly free to free him. There are laws against slavery

Better yet you can come by and enslave the enslaver thereby freeing the slave.

 

[Asclepias]

No, it's truth. Despite what the government claimed.

You should be able to prove a truth. I have a problem with calling it a truth unless I can see evidence.

You can never see the evidence if you do not recognize the creator as an entity. Call it God or Nature. You cannot consider such heady issues without philosophy as a major contributing element.

Who made up philosophy?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This was pointed out earlier. Why not just call them rights and do the same thing instead of pretending they came from somewhere other than man?

Because if rights are not recognized as inherent in man, they are subject to those in power.

This is what our founders understood. It's why we are a Republic, not a democracy or monarchy.

Even if rights are recognized in man, if you do not have the protection to back them up they are worthless-----you can scream your lungs out at you attacker--- " I HAVE RIGHTS "-----worthless.

As I pointed out the Asclepias earlier, we protect rights because they have value, not the other way around.

 

[Pennywise]

Well personally I don't particularly admire the 3/5ths thingy.

The 3/5ths thingy was put in to prevent slave holders from increasing the census too much, and to get less than honorable states to join the Union. It was a temporary measure that was righted in time. The Constitution allowed for that to be changed. Think about it, my friend.

I have and it doesnt make sense. Why didnt they do away with slavery at the time of the constitution? If the rights are so inalienable why are you bargaining with less than honorable states?

Because the Union was too fragile. That's the truth. Sometimes you must take a half measure and eat some crow in the short term. The wrongs were righted.

 

[dilloduck]

No, it's truth. Despite what the government claimed.

You should be able to prove a truth. I have a problem with calling it a truth unless I can see evidence.

You can never see the evidence if you do not recognize the creator as an entity. Call it God or Nature. You cannot consider such heady issues without philosophy as a major contributing element.

We as a society simple decide right and wrong and then we act accordingly. Those who do wrong get punished----why---because society has an agreement.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Even if rights are recognized in man, if you do not have the protection to back them up they are worthless-----you can scream your lungs out at you attacker--- " I HAVE RIGHTS "-----worthless.

Correct, which is why the US Constitution is so brilliant. They did their best to allow for abusive governmental power to usurp the individual. We should be on our collective knees thanking the heavens.

Well personally I don't particularly admire the 3/5ths thingy.

Is that because you think it is racist, or because you actually understand it and have a real problem with it?

 

[Pennywise]

You should be able to prove a truth. I have a problem with calling it a truth unless I can see evidence.

You can never see the evidence if you do not recognize the creator as an entity. Call it God or Nature. You cannot consider such heady issues without philosophy as a major contributing element.

Who made up philosophy?

No one, it is a process of man's understanding of man. It has evolved over millenia, like language.

 

[beagle9]

You vastly underestimate the degree that social pressure has on people. Social pressure teaches us pretty, ugly, good ,bad etc etc etc. Without adult humans to teach us, we are like animals.

I have not underestimated social pressure at all. But I also know that the human spirit is capable of awareness, understanding, and conceptual perceptions that nobody has to teach it. Both my husband and I chose to be something other than what our parents intended for us or that they ever understood. I have observed it in my own children. Neither chose directions for their lives that my husband or I would have chosen for them or that we guided them into. Nor did anybody else. They both, however, had their own inate creativity, abilities, desires, and interests. To recognize that this exists in no way negates or dismisses that cultural conditioning is also a factor in who or what we are.

Each human being is as individual as a snowflake with or without somebody else involving themselves in how somebody else chooses or develops.

I would think it most unfortunate if you see youself as being purely what others have made of you. How sad would that be?

What part of you is your own original design? While you are at it please supply me with a completely original thought.

Her finger print is of her own original design, and this for just one answer...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm pretty sure they did. Its a very attractive belief and one that gave them the hope to persevere through the abuse.

No, it's truth. Despite what the government claimed.

You should be able to prove a truth. I have a problem with calling it a truth unless I can see evidence.

Yet you continue to insist that government is the source of rights without any evidence.

Interesting.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Some people will tell you that the slave has a right to be freed. He may have. What good does that do him ?

If he has a right to be free I can come by and kill the people that are enslaving him in order to set him free, if he doesn't, I have to walk away.

No you don't---you are perfectly free to free him. There are laws against slavery

Not on the hypothetical island we are talking about.

 

[Asclepias]

The 3/5ths thingy was put in to prevent slave holders from increasing the census too much, and to get less than honorable states to join the Union. It was a temporary measure that was righted in time. The Constitution allowed for that to be changed. Think about it, my friend.

I have and it doesnt make sense. Why didnt they do away with slavery at the time of the constitution? If the rights are so inalienable why are you bargaining with less than honorable states?

Because the Union was too fragile. That's the truth. Sometimes you must take a half measure and eat some crow in the short term. The wrongs were righted.

So you go against what the creator says is right for the short term instead of going forth and dealing with the fallout? Doesn't sound like a whole lot of faith in that creator concept to me.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Of course not, but those 'inalienable rights' allow for redress and punitive action to be taken against the abuser.

It also allows for the woman to defend herself.

LOL I bet any woman defends herself whether she has the right to or not.

Are you telling me that every thing the government ever told me about victims of abuse is a lie?

 

[Asclepias]

I have not underestimated social pressure at all. But I also know that the human spirit is capable of awareness, understanding, and conceptual perceptions that nobody has to teach it. Both my husband and I chose to be something other than what our parents intended for us or that they ever understood. I have observed it in my own children. Neither chose directions for their lives that my husband or I would have chosen for them or that we guided them into. Nor did anybody else. They both, however, had their own inate creativity, abilities, desires, and interests. To recognize that this exists in no way negates or dismisses that cultural conditioning is also a factor in who or what we are.

Each human being is as individual as a snowflake with or without somebody else involving themselves in how somebody else chooses or develops.

I would think it most unfortunate if you see youself as being purely what others have made of you. How sad would that be?

What part of you is your own original design? While you are at it please supply me with a completely original thought.

Her finger print is of her own original design, and this for just one answer...

She designed her finger print?

 

[Pennywise]

I have and it doesnt make sense. Why didnt they do away with slavery at the time of the constitution? If the rights are so inalienable why are you bargaining with less than honorable states?

Because the Union was too fragile. That's the truth. Sometimes you must take a half measure and eat some crow in the short term. The wrongs were righted.

So you go against what the creator says is right for the short term instead of going forth and dealing with the fallout? Doesn't sound like a whole lot of faith in that creator concept to me.

Without that the United States would not have come to be. We all make choices, sometimes they are the wrong ones. Would you prefer living in Somalia?