Do European Leaders Want the Russia/Ukraine War to Continue, in Order to Weaken Russia?

[Seymour Flops]

So YOU believe, that the 2008 Budapest Memorandum doesn't exist?

I have no beliefs about it at all.

 

[Kruska]

I have no beliefs about it at all.

Well it's obvious that YOU don't know much to anything regarding Ukraine's NATO accession.
So thanks for proofing my assessment towards you.

BTW - the Budapest Memorandum was actually in 1994 - regarding the dismantling of it's nukes and being a signatory to the NPT
Whilst receiving the security assurances by the USA/UK and RUSSIA.

The BUCHAREST SUMMIT of 2008 - included Bush signing off the NATO MAP phase for Georgia (later retracted) and the NATO MAP phase for Ukraine.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP....

 

[Seymour Flops]

Well it's obvious that YOU don't know much to anything regarding Ukraine's NATO accession.
So thanks for proofing my assessment towards you.

BTW - the Budapest Memorandum was actually in 1994 - regarding the dismantling of it's nukes and being a signatory to the NPT
Whilst receiving the security assurances by the USA/UK and RUSSIA.

The BUCHAREST SUMMIT of 2008 - included Bush signing off the NATO MAP phase for Georgia (later retracted) and the NATO MAP phase for Ukraine.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP....

Ok, at least you finally posted something.

The NATO MAP is is only a formal consideration of a country wishing to join NATO. It does not prejudge any decision by the alliance on future membership.

https://www.nato.int/cps/ua/natohq/topics_37356.htm

As to the security assurances in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons, they apply if a nuclear power attacks them with nuclear weapons. That has not happened.

I posted the text of that agreement when I was educating another poster previously. I will find it for you also.

Bottom line is that we have never said that Ukraine could join NATO. Obama did not let them join and neither did Biden. Even they were not that stupid.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Here it is, Kruska :

Post in thread 'Let's Hear Zelenskyy's Side of the Story - Interview with Brett Baier'
Let's Hear Zelenskyy's Side of the Story - Interview with Brett Baier

 

[Kruska]

Ok, at least you finally posted something.

The NATO MAP is is only a formal consideration of a country wishing to join NATO. It does not prejudge any decision by the alliance on future membership.

https://www.nato.int/cps/ua/natohq/topics_37356.htm

As to the security assurances in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons, they apply if a nuclear power attacks them with nuclear weapons. That has not happened.

I posted the text of that agreement when I was educating another poster previously. I will find it for you also.

Bottom line is that we have never said that Ukraine could join NATO. Obama did not let them join and neither did Biden. Even they were not that stupid.

That you would come up with some other Bull - once you got a link provided, was understood.

The MAP is one of several processes on the path to full NATO membership.
Aka without the MAP - there will be no full NATO membership. see Georgia

So you can twist your bull around as much as you want to - it doesn't change the fact that Ukraine's bid to join NATO was signed of by the European NATO members & BUSH in 2005 - with Ukraine & Georgia being further taken into the NATO MAP process in April 2008 by the European NATO members and BUSH.

Therefore your claim in regards to Biden is a LIE, BULL&CRAP - and your claim that the NATO MAP process would not lead to a full NATO membership for Ukraine is a LIE, BULL&CRAP as well.

Even if people give you a link and a quote - you being a MAGA will refute anything just like those Lefty/Libs

Which part in BOLD is it that you can't read nor comprehend??

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP....

Now do feel free to tell me why Georgia was taken out of the NATO MAP process in 2008 - link and quotes please.

 

[Seymour Flops]

That you would come up with some other Bull - once you got a link provided, was understood.

The MAP is one of several processes on the path to full NATO membership.
Aka without the MAP - there will be no full NATO membership. see Georgia

So you can twist your bull around as much as you want to - it doesn't change the fact that Ukraine's bid to join NATO was signed of by the European NATO members & BUSH in 2005 - with Ukraine & Georgia being further taken into the NATO MAP process in April 2008 by the European NATO members and BUSH.

Therefore your claim in regards to Biden is a LIE, BULL&CRAP - and your claim that the NATO MAP process would not lead to a full NATO membership for Ukraine is a LIE, BULL&CRAP as well.

Even if people give you a link and a quote - you being a MAGA will refute anything just like those Lefty/Libs

Which part in BOLD is it that you can't read nor comprehend??

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP....

Now do feel free to tell me why Georgia was taken out of the NATO MAP process in 2008 - link and quotes please.

No idea about Georgia.

That you would come up with some other Bull - once you got a link provided, was understood.

The MAP is one of several processes on the path to full NATO membership.
Aka without the MAP - there will be no full NATO membership. see Georgia

So you can twist your bull around as much as you want to - it doesn't change the fact that Ukraine's bid to join NATO was signed of by the European NATO members & BUSH in 2005 - with Ukraine & Georgia being further taken into the NATO MAP process in April 2008 by the European NATO members and BUSH.

Therefore your claim in regards to Biden is a LIE, BULL&CRAP - and your claim that the NATO MAP process would not lead to a full NATO membership for Ukraine is a LIE, BULL&CRAP as well.

Even if people give you a link and a quote - you being a MAGA will refute anything just like those Lefty/Libs

Which part in BOLD is it that you can't read nor comprehend??

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP....

Now do feel free to tell me why Georgia was taken out of the NATO MAP process in 2008 - link and quotes please.

No idea about Georgia.

If NATO already decided to admit Ukraine to NATO why didn’t Obama or Biden push to have them join?

 

[Ringo]

 

[Deadstick]

Obviously, Putin wants to control all of Ukraine.

Question is what does Europe want?

Does he? why would he want Nazi infested Western Ukraine?

 

[Deadstick]

The USA caused this debacle - NOT the EU

The EU just followed like the vassals they are.

 

[Deadstick]

I watched that disgusting spectacle then i couldn't stand it anymore, those assholes think Genocide Joe is still the POTUS.

 

[Kruska]

No idea about Georgia.

Georgia was taken out of the NATO MAP process, due to Putin attacking Georgia on August 2008

If NATO already decided to admit Ukraine to NATO why didn’t Obama or Biden push to have them join?

NATO had admitted Ukraine's bid to join NATO in 2008 - it then takes numerous processes to acquit an applicant as a full member, usually 8-12 years.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

• Dialogue and cooperation started when newly independent Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace program (1994).
• Relations were strengthened with the signing of the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership
• In response to Ukraine’s aspirations for NATO membership, Allies agreed at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of NATO. They also agreed that Ukraine’s next step on its way to membership was the Membership Action Plan (MAP), NATO’s program of political, economic, defence, resource, security and legal reforms for aspirant countries. In 2009, the Annual National Program was introduced as Ukraine’s key instrument to advance its Euro-Atlantic integration and related reforms.
• From 2010 to 2014, Ukraine pursued a non-alignment policy, which it terminated in response to Russia’s aggression. In June 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted legislation reinstating membership in NATO as a strategic foreign and security policy objective. In 2019, a corresponding amendment to Ukraine's Constitution entered into force.
• In September 2020, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy approved Ukraine's new National Security Strategy, which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO. In September 2022, following Russia’s illegal attempted annexations of Ukrainian territory, Ukraine reiterated its request for NATO membership.
• At the 2024 Washington Summit, building on decisions taken at the 2022 Madrid Summit and 2023 Vilnius Summit, Allies reaffirmed that Ukraine’s future is in NATO and that they will continue to support it on its irreversible path to full Euro-Atlantic integration, including NATO membership. To that end, Allies will continue to support Ukraine’s progress on interoperability, as well as additional democratic and security sector reforms, which NATO Foreign Ministers will continue to assess through the adapted Annual National Program. In Washington, Allied Leaders reaffirmed that they will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Seymour Flops]

Does he? why would he want Nazi infested Western Ukraine?

The Ruskies wanted Nazi-infested East Germany.

Georgia was taken out of the NATO MAP process, due to Putin attacking Georgia on August 2008

NATO had admitted Ukraine's bid to join NATO in 2008 - it then takes numerous processes to acquit an applicant as a full member, usually 8-12 years.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

• Dialogue and cooperation started when newly independent Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace program (1994).
• 
  
• Relations were strengthened with the signing of the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership
• 
  
• In response to Ukraine’s aspirations for NATO membership, Allies agreed at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of NATO. They also agreed that Ukraine’s next step on its way to membership was the Membership Action Plan (MAP), NATO’s program of political, economic, defence, resource, security and legal reforms for aspirant countries. In 2009, the Annual National Program was introduced as Ukraine’s key instrument to advance its Euro-Atlantic integration and related reforms.
• From 2010 to 2014, Ukraine pursued a non-alignment policy, which it terminated in response to Russia’s aggression. In June 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted legislation reinstating membership in NATO as a strategic foreign and security policy objective. In 2019, a corresponding amendment to Ukraine's Constitution entered into force.
• In September 2020, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy approved Ukraine's new National Security Strategy, which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO. In September 2022, following Russia’s illegal attempted annexations of Ukrainian territory, Ukraine reiterated its request for NATO membership.
• At the 2024 Washington Summit, building on decisions taken at the 2022 Madrid Summit and 2023 Vilnius Summit, Allies reaffirmed that Ukraine’s future is in NATO and that they will continue to support it on its irreversible path to full Euro-Atlantic integration, including NATO membership. To that end, Allies will continue to support Ukraine’s progress on interoperability, as well as additional democratic and security sector reforms, which NATO Foreign Ministers will continue to assess through the adapted Annual National Program. In Washington, Allied Leaders reaffirmed that they will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met.

Sounds like Ukraine, also, is unsure about NATO membership.

Looks like they’d be fair weather friends at best.

 

[Iori_Yagami]

War MUST END, with TOTAL rUzzia's DEFEAT.

 

[Kruska]

The Ruskies wanted Nazi-infested East Germany.

Sounds like Ukraine, also, is unsure about NATO membership.

Looks like they’d be fair weather friends at best.

Not IMO - Ukraine always wanted to be an EU and NATO member. Due to Putin's vassal Yanukovych, the process on behalf of Ukraine was stopped from 2010-2014. due to Russian troops being involved in Ukraine from 2014 - today, a full NATO membership never came into place.

And that is Putin's worry - once a peace-treaty has taken place - Ukraine will be immediately admitted as a FULL NATO member - Orbán or no Orbán.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Seymour Flops]

Not IMO - Ukraine always wanted to be an EU and NATO member. Due to Putin's vassal Yanukovych, the process on behalf of Ukraine was stopped from 2010-2014. due to Russian troops being involved in Ukraine from 2014 - today, a full NATO membership never came into place.

Yanukovych was president of Ukraine. You seem to automatically define presidents who disagree with you as puppets of Putin.

And that is Putin's worry - once a peace-treaty has taken place - Ukraine will be immediately admitted as a FULL NATO member - Orbán or no Orbán.

Will NATO membership for Ukraine be addressed in the peace treaty? If so, Russia will insist on no NATO membership. If not, Russia will disavow the treaty if Ukraine ever joins NATO, unlikely as it is.

If NATO membership for Ukraine was ever going to happen, it would have been under Obama or Biden. They both punted and I can’t imagine any future US president allowing it.

 

[Deadstick]

The Ruskies wanted Nazi-infested East Germany.

Sounds like Ukraine, also, is unsure about NATO membership.

Looks like they’d be fair weather friends at best.

The Soviets had no choice about East Germany the Nazis started a WW and that was the price, but they did de Nazify it unlike in West German Government where the allies employed many former SS and Gestapo and the whole Gehelen network, as for Georgia that US puppet Saakashvili started that war off on Washingtons orders and Putin wasn't even President of Russia at the time, Medvedev was.

 

[Deadstick]

Not IMO - Ukraine always wanted to be an EU and NATO member. Due to Putin's vassal Yanukovych, the process on behalf of Ukraine was stopped from 2010-2014. due to Russian troops being involved in Ukraine from 2014 - today, a full NATO membership never came into place.

And that is Putin's worry - once a peace-treaty has taken place - Ukraine will be immediately admitted as a FULL NATO member - Orbán or no Orbán.

The process wasn't halted it was suspended, as for joining the EU it would have meant IMF rules and crippling austerity for the people, and there were no Russian troops in Ukraine in 2014 stop repeating that nonsense.

 

[Kruska]

Yanukovych was president of Ukraine. You seem to automatically define presidents who disagree with you as puppets of Putin.

Really?? where did Yanukovych run off to - and where has he been since??
Anyway it's a known FACT that Yanukovych was Putin's puppy - whilst others were NATO and EU puppies.

Will NATO membership for Ukraine be addressed in the peace treaty? If so, Russia will insist on no NATO membership. If not, Russia will disavow the treaty if Ukraine ever joins NATO, unlikely as it is.

Russia/Putin has disavowed EVERY single treaty with Ukraine - so what would be the difference??

It all depends if the EU and possibly Trump, will call Putin's nuke bluff or not. Since on the conventional part, Russia's Armed Forces got nothing to offer of value. Furthermore you seem to totally forget CHINA - they are faaaar more interested in collecting billions of $$ via trade - instead of the EU blowing billions of $$ into military expenditure.

IMO - and I had stated that already latest since 1994 - Ukraine needs to be NEUTRAL with solid security backings by the USA.
As for the present situation, Putin aka Russia has to pull out ENTIRELY from Ukraine - that includes Crimea. they don't need to waste their time with discussions about reparations paid by Russia, since - the USA starting with Bush, had caused this entire mess.

The UN should then in about 2 years time hold a referendum - regarding the status of Crimea, Donbass & Luhansk.

If NATO membership for Ukraine was ever going to happen, it would have been under Obama or Biden. They both punted and I can’t imagine any future US president allowing it.

Depends onto where Trump and his $$ minions are more likely to see their future business profits.
Right now in parallel to Ukraine's minerals they are already progressing onto getting their hands onto the Nord-Stream 2 pipeline - in anticipation that Germany and the EU might draw their gas again from Russia.