Diversity for diversity’s sake is not a good goal

[Coyote]

I‘ve given my recommendation before. The top 5% of every graduating class in every school get automatic admission to State U, tuition-free. We could drop that down to top 10% for auto admission. It would be measured as it used to be - GPA and test scores.

That is a good way to do it, in fact I think some states do (maybe CA?). GPA, yes. Test scores? No. Test scores really only measure one’s ability to do well on a test which is increasingly abetted by an entire for profit industry built around helping students improve test scores, which locks out millions of families who can’t afford it. Test scores are also increasingly found to not necessarily be indicative of overall success and with education being key to moving up it would increase the economic gap.

Of course the “black standards” are lowered. This is why blacks get admitted to competitive programs with substantially lower grades and scores than the whites who are rejected. Nobody other than a blind leftist would deny this.

Are the minimum standards lowered? Any data?

Graduation rates hide the real story. The blacks who are academically behind the whites, yet admitted anyway, require handholding and tutoring all the way through. The LAST thing the leftist universities want out is that their AA admits flunk out at a much higher rate, so they work hard to prevent it.

hmmm…

What is often found is though they struggle at the start, quite often after the first year many are on par with their peers. Another factor to consider too, and that is first generation college students. This is another category that often gets “affirmative action” regardless of race. They struggle because they may often lack the support structure and background that a student from a family with college degrees have. Yet, despite needing extra help along the way, they make and that success is passed on in greater economic opportunities and children more likely to go college. Is that a bad thing or only bad if it happens to be black students?

You don’t think this type of thing is tracked? We know which black kids got in under below-par standards, and which blacks got in with the “regular” highly competitive standards. These latter blacks did NOT require all the tutoring.

Ok, show m the data.

And as I said, the graduation rate doesn’t tell the whole story.

My so-called obsession with racial admissions came after years of work in higher Ed admissions - and the recognition of blatant racism associated with who gets in and who gets rejected.

I work in higher Ed and in the admissions process for our Department. That doesn’t mean a thing except for opinion. Show me the data.

And again, graduation rates count for little. I graduated at the very top of my class and never had a tutor for anything. (I actually tutored others - as a volunteer job.) My roommate squeaked through with Cs, an occsssional D, and an even rarer B - and that was WITH tons of tutoring. Yet we would appear equally qualified - we both graduated - even though that wasn’t true.

 

[Mac1958]

Except Libtards don't do that.

Just look at this affrimative action idiot these Libtards have nominated to the Supreme Court as an example. She has a terrible record on the bench being overturned many times. There are thousands of people in the US more qualified than her but Potatohead wants her because he promised a Negro woman.

Despicable, isn't it?

Neither end of the spectrum keep standards and expectations high. That's a standard behavior of tribalism.

Look at the people you're electing to office.

The two ends of the spectrum can be spectacularly similar in their behaviors.

 

[Lisa558]

That is a good way to do it, in fact I think some states do (maybe CA?). GPA, yes. Test scores? No. Test scores really only measure one’s ability to do well on a test which is increasingly abetted by an entire for profit industry built around helping students improve test scores, which locks out millions of families who can’t afford it. Test scores are also increasingly found to not necessarily be indicative of overall success and with education being key to moving up it would increase the economic gap.

No, the beauty of having it by the top 5% BY SCHOOL is that one is competing against one’s own cohort. So for example, the students in public schools in DC’s 8th district - all poor blacks - are all on “equal footing.”

They would not be competing against the affluent in NW DC whose parents can pay for tutoring, private schools, etc.

Are the minimum standards lowered? Any data?

Yes, and I’ve posted it many times. Look at the AAMC data as to the likelihood of getting admitted to med school with a specific GPA and test score. Grades and scores that have 80% of blacks get in have only 20% of whites, and really mediocre grades/scores that still admit 50% of all blacks have all but a few whites laughed out of the place.

hmmm…

What is often found is though they struggle at the start, quite often after the first year many are on par with their peers. Another factor to consider too, and that is first generation college students. This is another category that often gets “affirmative action” regardless of race. They struggle because they may often lack the support structure and background that a student from a family with college degrees have. Yet, despite needing extra help along the way, they make and that success is passed on in greater economic opportunities and children more likely to go college. Is that a bad thing or only bad if it happens to be black students?

Your typical insinuation that I’m a racist shows that you’re just another leftist that uses disgusting accusations against decent, kind, and thoughtful people who simply disagree with you.

Why are YOU showing such favoritism toward helping poor blacks, with uneducated parents, climb out of poverty - and thus continue the racist AA policy - instead of poor EVERYONE, with uneducated parents, do the same, regardless of color?

Why, for example, shouldn’t a serious, motivated, bright JEWISH boy with parents who didn’t complete high school because they fled Russian pograms, and now lives in a fourth-floor walk-up tenement with them in poverty, get just as much chance to achieve “middleclassdom” as a poor black kid who has LOWER grades and scores?

My father was every bit as deserving as a black kid, as was my uncle, and my mother, and my aunt. All grew up poor, with immigrant parents. Why should ANY of them have to give up their chance for a better life because leftists think black kids, even with worse grades and scores, are more deserving?

Ok, show m the data.



I work in higher Ed and in the admissions process for our Department. That doesn’t mean a thing except for opinion. Show me the data.

OK….I will look up some charts. Next posts.

And if you are in higher Ed and srill claiming that blacks don’t get n over better qualified whites, you are either lying or in massive denial.

 

[citygator]

Diversity is a good measure of whether your hiring practices are neutral and people are on an even field. Current figures suggests one/both of those are out of alignment.

 

[Lisa558]

OK, I can’t find the data chart the AAMC used to publish showing how much easier it was for blacks to get in over whites with the same grades and scores. It’s possible that buried it - the truth hurts - so I’ll keep looking.

In the interim, look at this one. It shows how high the odds are of a black getting in over a white with the identical grades and scores. It varies by institution, but it goes up as high as 30 to 1. IOW, a black with a specific GPA and MCAT score is 30 times as likely to get admitted to med school than a white with the same.

You have to scroll down to the table.

Minorities get preferential admission to US medical schools

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Lisa558]

OK, still can’t find it on AAMC site, although it might be buried somewhere. They’re a liberal place and might want to hide how biased toward blacks med schools are.

But I found an article that included a chart that had been published by the AAMC five years ago, showing how much easier it is for blacks to get in over whites. There’s no arguing with statistics: look at the shaded area in the chart, and you’ll see that grades and scores that had more than 80% of blacks admitted had only 29% of whites admitted.

It‘s time to stop punishing bright, motivated, disciplined white kids for stuff that happened before their parents were even born, and allow everyone to compete against equal standards.

New Chart Illustrates Graphically the Racial Preferences for Blacks, Hispanics Being Admitted to US Medical Schools

The bar chart above is based on selected data from the table below the chart and shows the acceptance rates for US medical schools based on three different combinations of MCAT scores and GPA by ethnic/race group during the 2013-2016 period. As I explained in previous CD post that featured the...

www.aei.org

 

[IamZ]

Every multicultural town in America and in the world is high in crime.
Many are police states.. and the crime is still high.
Not having identity and poor neighborhoods destroys the education system destroys the culture and the heritage

 

[JoeB131]

Neither end of the spectrum keep standards and expectations high. That's a standard behavior of tribalism.

Look at the people you're electing to office.

The two ends of the spectrum can be spectacularly similar in their behaviors.

Yawn, when Mac whines about "Tribalism", it usually means that he was the kid picked last for dodgeball.

Also beware people who think they are better than anyone else.

 

[JoeB131]

OK, I can’t find the data chart the AAMC used to publish showing how much easier it was for blacks to get in over whites with the same grades and scores. It’s possible that buried it - the truth hurts - so I’ll keep looking.

Who does the truth hurt, exactly?

In the interim, look at this one. It shows how high the odds are of a black getting in over a white with the identical grades and scores. It varies by institution, but it goes up as high as 30 to 1. IOW, a black with a specific GPA and MCAT score is 30 times as likely to get admitted to med school than a white with the same.

And so? Again, test scores just prove who can most afford test prep. If you are going to whine that the black kid got in with a slightly lower SAT score, but he didn't have an SAT Coach, what is your point, exactly?

But I found an article that included a chart that had been published by the AAMC five years ago, showing how much easier it is for blacks to get in over whites. There’s no arguing with statistics: look at the shaded area in the chart, and you’ll see that grades and scores that had more than 80% of blacks admitted had only 29% of whites admitted.

Okay, here's your chart.

Um, not seeing the problem here. These are pretty high scores, and people of all races are being admitted with these scores. .. A 3.39 GPA is still pretty darned good.

Let's assume no one graduates from Medical School without being qualified. What does the greater good.

Admitting White Boy McCracker with a 3.6 GPA, so he goes on to an exciting career of injecting botox into the faces of old ladies?

Or admitting Jamal with a 3.4 GPA, who goes back to his community and provides medical care for an underserved population?

 

[JoeB131]

Your typical insinuation that I’m a racist shows that you’re just another leftist that uses disgusting accusations against decent, kind, and thoughtful people who simply disagree with you.

Why are YOU showing such favoritism toward helping poor blacks, with uneducated parents, climb out of poverty - and thus continue the racist AA policy - instead of poor EVERYONE, with uneducated parents, do the same, regardless of color?

Because poor everyone didn't have it written into the constitution they were 3/5th of a white person. Come on, you can't pretend that even the poorest white immigrant off the boat doesn't have an IMMEDIATE advantage due to institutionalized racism in this country.

Why, for example, shouldn’t a serious, motivated, bright JEWISH boy with parents who didn’t complete high school because they fled Russian pograms {sic}, and now lives in a fourth-floor walk-up tenement with them in poverty, get just as much chance to achieve “middleclassdom” as a poor black kid who has LOWER grades and scores?

Hmm... Okay, first I don't know if the Russians have had any Pogrom's lately. If he did, he should be damned happy that he was allowed into this country and has all the opportunities of only selectively belonging to a minority.

As opposed to blacks, who were brought over here in chains, subjected to 400 years of slavery and apartheid, and only now are we giving them half a chance to catch up.

My father was every bit as deserving as a black kid, as was my uncle, and my mother, and my aunt. All grew up poor, with immigrant parents. Why should ANY of them have to give up their chance for a better life because leftists think black kids, even with worse grades and scores, are more deserving?

Well, here's the main difference. As immigrants, they had a CHOICE to come here or not.
Here's the other difference, you "otherness" as an immigrant kind of disappears after a generation or two.

Here's a better question, why does your immigrant relative DESERVE to jump the line? (And I would say the same of my immigrant relatives)

 

[Curried Goats]

The goal should be a completely race-blind approach, where individuals are selected based on competence and ability. Only then will employers, and by extent the broader society, know that when a black is selected for a position - be it a spot in a competitive university, a job promotion, a SCOTUS nomination, whatever - it is due to that person’s ability, and not some artificial attempt to “pump up” members of a minority simply due to race.

Take AA, the racist approach to college admissions. On average, 1 out of every 3 blacks would have been admitted under the “white standards” - and those blacks are the ones who keep pace with their white classmates and are every bit as qualified for a job opening as any white competitor.

But 2 out of 3 are not. They were admitted due to skin color - and employers KNOW that. Thus, they wonder if the black applicant from Excellent University is as good as the white applicant, and there is a reluctance to hire. If there WERE no AA, then employers would know that the black applicants are every bit as capable as the whites.

And THIS is the way to move forward: not continue with an artificial system that as admits the majority of blacks under lesser standards, and then force, via societal pressure, employers to hire them. Let blacks and whites compete under equal standards, and then everyone would know that the blacks who graduated from Excellent U will be just as much of an asset as the whites.

That system was put in place not because society wanted to help promote unqualified black people but because white racists were keeping opportunities from black people. Everyone who isn't an ignorant fucking racist knows this.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The goal should be a completely race-blind approach, where individuals are selected based on competence and ability. Only then will employers, and by extent the broader society, know that when a black is selected for a position - be it a spot in a competitive university, a job promotion, a SCOTUS nomination, whatever - it is due to that person’s ability, and not some artificial attempt to “pump up” members of a minority simply due to race.

Take AA, the racist approach to college admissions. On average, 1 out of every 3 blacks would have been admitted under the “white standards” - and those blacks are the ones who keep pace with their white classmates and are every bit as qualified for a job opening as any white competitor.

But 2 out of 3 are not. They were admitted due to skin color - and employers KNOW that. Thus, they wonder if the black applicant from Excellent University is as good as the white applicant, and there is a reluctance to hire. If there WERE no AA, then employers would know that the black applicants are every bit as capable as the whites.

And THIS is the way to move forward: not continue with an artificial system that as admits the majority of blacks under lesser standards, and then force, via societal pressure, employers to hire them. Let blacks and whites compete under equal standards, and then everyone would know that the blacks who graduated from Excellent U will be just as much of an asset as the whites.

This fails as a strawman fallacy.

There is no such thing as ‘diversity for diversity’s sake,’ it’s a ridiculous rightwing lie.

The thread premise is yet another example of the authoritarian right’s unwarranted fear of positive, beneficial change and desire to compel conformity and silence dissent.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Same thing has happened with our “woke” military. It was only a few months ago that a general, together with the Sec of Defense, said that the goal was a more diverse military.

NO. The goal should be the most prepared, capable military. Skin tone should be irrelevant.

Another lie.

Seeking qualified candidates for any position by not allowing racism and bigotry to interfere with the process, where qualified candidates are excluded solely because of their race, is perfectly appropriate and warranted, having nothing to do with being ‘woke’ – whatever that’s supposed to mean.

Working toward a more diverse military is to work toward a better prepared and effective military.

 

[DGS49]

History lesson: The American court system created the evil of "affirmative action," because they deemed the Congress - the body with the power to create it - insufficiently capable of making that judgment. When the Court was called on their grotesque sanctioning of racial discrimination (the aforesaid "affirmative action") they were forced to back down, taking the position that Government may not overtly cheat to advantage POC's, but if it deemed "diversity" to be a good thing, then it could continue to cheat and violate the Constitution with this ridiculous fiction.

The very idea that Colleges and other schools discriminate against POC's, and must implement these DEI policies to fight their innate desire to discriminate is preposterous. Since AT LEAST the early 50's the vast majority of institutions of higher learning have welcomed POC's and done absolutely nothing to "disadvantage" them. If they were even marginally qualified they got in. So the fundamental basis of all this bullshit - the presumption of racism because of disparate impacts - is provably false.

One is inclined to bring up Colleges in the Deep South that had overtly discriminatory policies, but these were a tiny fraction of the total of American schools, hardly representative of the Big Picture.

Color blind is the only way forward. And Blacks will be under-represented in Academe, not because of racism but because of the trainwreck that is today's Black culture, a culture where bastardy is the rule rather than the exception, where academic effort and success are overtly scorned.

And the message to POC's who choose to hear it would be, you will be treated fairly if you do what is necessary to succeed. Nothing more is necessary.

 

[Paul Essien]

Lisa558
Take AA, the racist approach to college admissions. On average, 1 out of every 3 blacks would have been admitted under the “white standards” - and those blacks are the ones who keep pace with their white classmates and are every bit as qualified for a job opening as any white competitor.

Name the college or uni that is lowering the bar to allow all these dumb black ppl in ?

Lisa558
Of course the “black standards” are lowered. This is why blacks get admitted to competitive programs with substantially lower grades and scores than the whites who are rejected. Nobody other than a blind leftist would deny this.

This was this guy called Vijay Chokalingam.

He's Mindy Kalling’s brother. That’s Mindy Kaling the actress who starred in the the Mindy Project

He (Vijay Chokalingam) wrote a book about how he pretended to be a black man to get into uni’s with the same score that he could not get into as Asian man to prove that this system is racist to Asians and whites and biased to black.

He shaved the hair of his head off and applied as a black man

He had a 3.1 GPA and MCAT score of 31Q.

He submitted applications to medical school and an essay to 26 top and middle-tier medical schools around the country named “Jojo Chokalingam”

He claims he was admitted to St. Louis University School of Medicine.

This is ranked #57th in the country and that was evidence of “less stringent” standards for black applicants.

What he did not say was that he was rejected from most of the medical schools he applied to:

• Columbia University,
• Cornell University
• George Washington University
• Mount Sinai
• University of Nebraska
• Nobay
• University of Pittsburgh
• University of Rochester
• University of Pennsylvania
• Washington University
• University of Wisconsin
• Yale University
• Case Western.

He withdrew his application from quite a few schools when he realized that those rejections would go against his agenda those included Vanderbilt University and Harvard University and a few others.

But he made a BIG DEAL that he received an invitation to apply from other schools based on his MCAT score (mostly lower-tier schools such as Ohio University) without noting that he received those letters for no other reason than his MCAT score actually was within the range acceptable to these schools.

This clown (as a black man) was rejected from 93% of schools he applied to but he wanted everyone to focus on the fact that he was accepted into a single medical school.

Lisa558
But I found an article that included a chart that had been published by the AAMC five years ago, showing how much easier it is for blacks to get in over whites. There’s no arguing with statistics: look at the shaded area in the chart, and you’ll see that grades and scores that had more than 80% of blacks admitted had only 29% of whites admitted

Black people are the only people who practice meritocracy. We don't have people in places with muscle who can who can sideways and creak open a door for us.

We are obligated to practice meritocracy because there is no mechanism that allow us to cheat the system. Where as everybody else is caught in cheating scandals, tutoring scandals, payoff scandals, degree scandals. If we get it. We earn it AND EVEN WORSE ppl like you have the nerve to point the finger at us.

DGS49
Color blind is the only way forward. And Blacks will be under-represented in Academe, not because of racism but because of the trainwreck that is today's Black culture, a culture where bastardy is the rule rather than the exception, where academic effort and success are overtly scorned.

There are no policies that favour blacks over whites in any college.

But there are tons of polices that favours whites.

You have the University of Michigan (And many uni's in America) giving out 16 points to kids from certain lily-white Upper Peninsulas ?

And 4 points for children of overwhelmingly white alumni ?

And 10 points for students who went to the state’s “top” schools ?

And 8 points for those who took a full slate of Advanced Placement classes in high schools (which classes are far less available in schools serving students blk students)

You have scandals were affluent white and non black individuals, including television actors, corporate executives and bankers bribed and frauded their way to get admission for their children into America's most prestigious universities ?
.
They are letting dumb-ass white students in there all day because of their fathers or uncles. Most blacks applying could run circles around them academically but they would never ever be admitted.

College admissions is nothing but game.

They can and do say anything to black students "your application was late" “it got lost” "We don’t like your essay"............. ANYTHING.

.We are taking no one's spots trust me.

You have a legacy and being a legacy only works if you have a trust fund and your parents have been donating a good % of their annual salary to the school or your dad holds political office or your parents are fortune 500 CEOs, COOs, CFOs or CAOs.

Anyone else, it's still a crap shot.

It might get your resume an extra 5 second glance but if they see average jobs and medium income zip-code on your application, you can forget about it.

Blaming the handful of black people that get in is ridiculous. More Black Americans are becoming doctors (despite the obstacles set for black people) and non-blacks hate to see a black person who is superior to them in anything and become bitter and jealous.

 

[Circe]

They would be golden then as there is no such thing as a separate "race".....Only the human race with it's various ethnicities.

Racism is a lame social construct.

There must be something called racism or we wouldn't have a whole forum on it.

The attempt to argue out of existence something everyone worries about constantly is what is lame, IMO.

 

[Circe]

Diversity is a good measure of whether your hiring practices are neutral and people are on an even field. Current figures suggests one/both of those are out of alignment.

Not if there is a big intelligence difference!! And there are at least two racial differences from whites in intelligence that we know of --- blacks and Asians.

The implication is that selecting by merit would overrepresent Asians and might exclude blacks altogether, in some high-tech or computer-heavy businesses.

 

[1srelluc]

There must be something called racism or we wouldn't have a whole forum on it.

The attempt to argue out of existence something everyone worries about constantly is what is lame, IMO.

OK, please to explain to me the science behind the social construct "racism".....I'll make it easy for you, there is none. We have just been conditioned to accept that construct.

The term was not even coined till 1902 by a ex-US Army officer when he was referring to those who were anti-Native American and their ill treatment of same.

There is but one race, the human race, and anything beyond that is a social construct that is used, good or bad, to categorize and pigeon the various ethnicities for those ends.

If you don't like some particular ethnicity then you are simply anti whatever that ethnicity might be.....Anti-white. anti-black, or anti-Asian etc..

Just because some board has a section on "racism" does not make it any less of a social construct......It's just another form of pigeon hole.

 

[JoeB131]

OK, please to explain to me the science behind the social construct "racism".....I'll make it easy for you, there is none. We have just been conditioned to accept that construct.

The term was not even coined till 1902 by a ex-US Army officer when he was referring to those who were anti-Native American and their ill treatment of same.

There is but one race, the human race, and anything beyond that is a social construct that is used, good or bad, to categorize and pigeon the various ethnicities for those ends.

If you don't like some particular ethnicity then you are simply anti whatever that ethnicity might be.....Anti-white. anti-black, or anti-Asian etc..

Just because some board has a section on "racism" does not make it any less of a social construct......It's just another form of pigeon hole.

It's actually kind of simple. Racism is the construct where an entity (business, government) is designed to favor one race over another.

We didn't have a word for "Genocide" until World War II, but no one will claim that genocide hasn't been a thing that has happened.

Racism goes beyond being "anti-" another group. It is when a society gives power to one group over another, a great example being Jim Crow laws. They were specifically passed to nullify the Reconstruction Amendments.

 

[1srelluc]

It's actually kind of simple. Racism is the construct where an entity (business, government) is designed to favor one race over another.

We didn't have a word for "Genocide" until World War II, but no one will claim that genocide hasn't been a thing that has happened.

Racism goes beyond being "anti-" another group. It is when a society gives power to one group over another, a great example being Jim Crow laws. They were specifically passed to nullify the Reconstruction Amendments.

Genocide is a descriptive term made by combining the ancient Greek word genos (tribe) and the Latin cide (killing).

Negative, Jim Crow laws were designed to be anti-black pure and simple. At least you realize "racism" is just a social construct.

Blah, sadly we live in a world of isms.....Everyone has a ism for something because it's so dumbed down.