Did Pope Francis help the church by going woke?

[ding]

YOU are the one who needs evidence that Paul had a vision. Not me.

Why? The first Christians worshipped Jesus as God, non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God and 24,000 written manuscripts documented why the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

That's called evidence.

 

[ding]

Evidence of what? Thaty Christian beliefs are whacked? Or Muslim beliefs are? How about Calvinists? Joly Roillers? jesuits, Mormons. the all have the truth. Just ask them.

Evidence to support your conspiracy theory. Can't you follow the thread?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

What's your point? You already acknowledged the Church is the world's greatest provider of charity.

The mafia was charitable too. Matter of fact the mafia reminds me of the fabricated bible god. "Hey YOU! Yeah I'm tokking to youz. Vito said you paid up ta dait on da interest U owed the boss. I knew yude be a believer sum day. Good job. Now da boss won't burn yer bidness down. Oh, and hers a hundred smackers for the chillun."

 

[Paradoxical#1]

The world.

The world liked the 613 laws?

 

[Meriweather]

The mafia was charitable too. Matter of fact the mafia reminds me of the fabricated bible god. "Hey YOU! Yeah I'm tokking to youz. Vito said you paid up ta dait on da interest U owed the boss. I knew yude be a believer sum day. Good job. Now da boss won't burn yer bidness down. Oh, and hers a hundred smackers for the chillun."

What has the mafia and their ways done for you personally? Do they even know you exist?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Why? The first Christians worshipped Jesus as God, non-Christian historians recorded that the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God and 24,000 written manuscripts documented why the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

That's called evidence.

Some early Christians MAY have revered Jesus as a divine agent or Messiah without fully equating him with God. The doctrine of the Trinity was imagined and created centuries later.

As for any record of non Christians recording what you say it was almost a hundred years LATER, meaning that NO outside source mentioned Jesus was "God". Pliny the Younger does not express a personal belief that Jesus was God. He reports what he learned about Christian practices, stating that Christians in Bithynia sang hymns to Christ. IF this Jesus was widely known and considered to be a "God" why are there no sources outside of the bible that wrote anything at all about it at the time?

As for your 24,000 manuscripts that document anything you likely refer to the total number of New Testament manuscripts, including fragments, codices, and later copies. These manuscripts, dating from the 2nd century onward, contain texts like the Gospels, Pauline epistles, and other writings that reflect early Christian beliefs. So what? People believed in a day when religiosity ran amok. A belief is not a fact. Your 24,000 is not from outside sources. It is from believers. It's like polling Democrats on Obama.

But, not all 24,000 manuscripts directly address why Christians worshipped Jesus as God. Many are fragments or later copies of texts that assume or imply his divinity rather than explain it systematically. The number also includes variations and scribal changes, some of which reflect theological debates (e.g., 1 John 5:7-8 in later manuscripts).

The claim about 24,000 manuscripts is an exaggeration in terms of documenting why Christians worshipped Jesus as God. While these manuscripts contain texts reflecting belief in Jesus’ divinity, they are not all focused on explaining the reasons for this worship, and many are later copies.

Some of the first Christians did worship Jesus as divine but so what? Again you are just saying that people back in the day believed their elders and others in authority. Those believers never even met Jesus. It's like saying the TV anchors and the DNC believed in Joe Biden.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Evidence to support your conspiracy theory. Can't you follow the thread?

The burden is on the Christian to prove his or her beliefs and not the nonbeliever. It's like asking me to refute someone's claimed sighting of Bigfoot 40 years ago, and the guy is dead but had many believers in his claimed sighting with "proof" he saw Bigfoot from a photo that is now hard to make out due to the passing of so many years, and all I need do is contact those "witnesses" to Frank having a vision of Bigfoot for the evidence I am asking for.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

What has the mafia and their ways done for you personally? Do they even know you exist?

Your contrived bible god is just like the mafia. Do what he says or he'll fry you for all eternity. The mafia will burn down your business or kill you if you don't believe they are mafia and have an invisible boss who "loves" you.

 

[Meriweather]

Your contrived bible god is just like the mafia. Do what he says or he'll fry you for all eternity. The mafia will burn down your business or kill you if you don't believe they are mafia and have an invisible boss who "loves" you.

Ah, a fan of Dante's Inferno. No God does not say do as he says or he'll fry you. Far from it. I thought you said you were raised in a Catholic home, went to a Catholic school, and presume went to Mass on Sundays? Did you ever listen to the readings and the homilies? Did you pay attention in religion class?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Ah, a fan of Dante's Inferno. No God does not say do as he says or he'll fry you. Far from it. I thought you said you were raised in a Catholic home, went to a Catholic school, and presume went to Mass on Sundays? Did you ever listen to the readings and the homilies? Did you pay attention in religion class?

From Grok:

The Catholic Church teaches that hell is a real state of existence. According to Catholic doctrine, hell is the eternal separation from God for those who die in a state of unrepented mortal sin. Key points from Catholic teaching include:

• Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC): Sections 1033-1037 affirm hell’s reality, describing it as a state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed, reserved for those who freely choose to reject God’s love and mercy. It emphasizes that hell is a consequence of free will, not God’s desire (CCC 1033: “God predestines no one to go to hell”).
• Scriptural Basis: The Church draws on New Testament passages, such as Matthew 25:41-46 (eternal punishment for the unrighteous), Mark 9:43-48 (unquenchable fire), and Revelation 20:10-15 (lake of fire), to support the doctrine.
• Nature of Hell: Hell is primarily understood as spiritual suffering due to separation from God, though traditional imagery (fire, torment) is used to convey its severity. The exact nature of hell’s punishments is not fully defined, but it is eternal and real (CCC 1035).
• Magisterial Teaching: Popes and Church councils, such as the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) and the Council of Trent, have consistently upheld hell’s existence as a dogmatic teaching.

While some modern theologians or Catholics may interpret hell more symbolically, the official teaching remains that hell is a real, eternal consequence for unrepented mortal sin. The Church also emphasizes God’s mercy and the hope of salvation through repentance.

Now then, the mafia learned well from the Catholics. When the business owner didn't pay his protection fee (repentance) Louie would put the fear of "God" into all others by torching his business in the dead of night when no one could see him, thereby inflicting punishment by fire for his nonbelief that Don Corleone was just a fictional boss. Then Louie would pay a visit to the store owners who didn't believe in the Don's vengeance and say "It's too bad that your friend Bobby didn't believe me. What do you think? I would sure hate to see what happened to Bobby happen to you. Are you a believer now? Check. I'll be back tomorrow to make sure you believe and get that envelope we talked about. Kapeesh?"

Catholicism in a nutshell.

 

[ding]

The mafia was charitable too. Matter of fact the mafia reminds me of the fabricated bible god. "Hey YOU! Yeah I'm tokking to youz. Vito said you paid up ta dait on da interest U owed the boss. I knew yude be a believer sum day. Good job. Now da boss won't burn yer bidness down. Oh, and hers a hundred smackers for the chillun."

I love that you argue doing good isn't doing good because they should have done more or anyone can do it.

 

[ding]

The world liked the 613 laws?

Try using to google to google "the Jews didn't raise moral standards." And if you find something, post that. Good luck.

 

[ding]

Some early Christians MAY have revered Jesus as a divine agent or Messiah without fully equating him with God. The doctrine of the Trinity was imagined and created centuries later.

As for any record of non Christians recording what you say it was almost a hundred years LATER, meaning that NO outside source mentioned Jesus was "God". Pliny the Younger does not express a personal belief that Jesus was God. He reports what he learned about Christian practices, stating that Christians in Bithynia sang hymns to Christ. IF this Jesus was widely known and considered to be a "God" why are there no sources outside of the bible that wrote anything at all about it at the time?

As for your 24,000 manuscripts that document anything you likely refer to the total number of New Testament manuscripts, including fragments, codices, and later copies. These manuscripts, dating from the 2nd century onward, contain texts like the Gospels, Pauline epistles, and other writings that reflect early Christian beliefs. So what? People believed in a day when religiosity ran amok. A belief is not a fact. Your 24,000 is not from outside sources. It is from believers. It's like polling Democrats on Obama.

But, not all 24,000 manuscripts directly address why Christians worshipped Jesus as God. Many are fragments or later copies of texts that assume or imply his divinity rather than explain it systematically. The number also includes variations and scribal changes, some of which reflect theological debates (e.g., 1 John 5:7-8 in later manuscripts).

The claim about 24,000 manuscripts is an exaggeration in terms of documenting why Christians worshipped Jesus as God. While these manuscripts contain texts reflecting belief in Jesus’ divinity, they are not all focused on explaining the reasons for this worship, and many are later copies.

Some of the first Christians did worship Jesus as divine but so what? Again you are just saying that people back in the day believed their elders and others in authority. Those believers never even met Jesus. It's like saying the TV anchors and the DNC believed in Joe Biden.

That's some rationalization you have their. Too bad you have no evidence for that.

 

[ding]

The burden is on the Christian to prove his or her beliefs and not the nonbeliever. It's like asking me to refute someone's claimed sighting of Bigfoot 40 years ago, and the guy is dead but had many believers in his claimed sighting with "proof" he saw Bigfoot from a photo that is now hard to make out due to the passing of so many years, and all I need do is contact those "witnesses" to Frank having a vision of Bigfoot for the evidence I am asking for.

That's exactly what I would expect someone who had no evidence for his beliefs to say to try to distract from the fact that he had no evidence for his beliefs.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Try using to google to google "the Jews didn't raise moral standards." And if you find something, post that. Good luck.

I don't do another posters work.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

That's some rationalization you have their. Too bad you have no evidence for that.

The evidence was there. A Christian asking for evidence to disprove a claimed vision and resurrection is rich. It's kinda like asking someone for evidence the guy didn't see Bigfoot.

 

[ding]

I don't do another posters work.

I think you mean to say you don't do your own work. You make unsubstantiated claims without any supporting evidence. That seems to be your MO. I thought you people were supposed to be big on evidence.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

That's exactly what I would expect someone who had no evidence for his beliefs to say to try to distract from the fact that he had no evidence for his beliefs.

He saw Bigfoot. He really did = Paul had a vison of Jesus. He really did. Prove he didn't.

 

[ding]

The evidence was there. A Christian asking for evidence to disprove a claimed vision and resurrection is rich. It's kinda like asking someone for evidence the guy didn't see Bigfoot.

Nope. That's not evidence. Evidence would be physical manuscripts or documented history recorded by historians or the first Christians literally worshipping Jesus as God. Shit like that.

For example... are there any historical written accounts which refute that Jesus performed miracles?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

I think you mean to say you don't do your own work. You make unsubstantiated claims without any supporting evidence. That seems to be your MO. I thought you people were supposed to be big on evidence.

Your premise is "Paul had a vision and I believe him, and if you don't you have to prove he did not have a vision with evidence he did not."

BTW, you believe in Paulianity anyway. He refuted almost everything Jesus said. At least what the unknown writers of the NT wrote that Jesus said.