Did Jesus commit suicide by Roman or Jew?

[HaShev]

Plus since days=ages it was 3 ages the fish had swallowed Israel till he was whole(Shalem) again.
1)Age of Trade: - 500 BC to 1730 AD (about 2,000 years)This was the age of rapid spread of wealth and knowledge. From thisage came technology, 'modern' concepts of math, scientific method,medicine, warfare.
2)Industrial Age: 1730 AD - 1950 AD (about 200 years) The rise and fall of great Captains of Industry, railroads, shipping,air transport, conquering of physical frontiers, modern military warmachines, major empires rise and fall on a global scale: Trade still very important, but now, seen as a means to delivery thegreatest number of goods to the greatest number of people for thegreatest profit. Agriculture still very important, but not seen as theprimary engine of the economy... Hunter gatherers almost disappearing.
3) Information Age: 1950 to 1999 (about 50 years) Witness the rise of abandoned old industrial buildings by the rives of the major cities.Industry, Trade, Agriculture are still in the foundation of oureconomy, but are dominated by the frenetic application of informationsystems technologies to make these products better, cheaper anddeliver them more effectively. Also leads to networking ideas and next age......

 

[The Irish Ram]

Either that or a leviathan swallowed Jonah and delivered him to where God told him to go in the first place. Because God is in control. And can do miraculous things.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Either that or a leviathan swallowed Jonah and delivered him to where God told him to go in the first place. Because God is in control. And can do miraculous things.

 

[Penelope]

Just constant circular arguments... Jesus never committed suicide because Jesus the one spoon fed to the masses never exsted...Were there people that made up this myth ... Yes...But snippets from their lives were woven together to make this image live on the paper or papyrus just like the monster created by Frankenstein was given life by taking a piece here and a piece there... Everyone knows Frankenstein' s monster was make believe and we enjoy the stories and fables that go along with it but why do people believe the nonsense associated with the created Frankenstein Jesus that the Romans and the writers of the gospels foisted on mankind...Really how guliable can people be to this created image warned of in Isaiah 44... To be Franked is when a baby is turned the wrong way in its mothers womb... The problem is most people are Franked not feet first but head first when it comes to the Frankenstonian monster named Jesus...

Same with the people in the OT, all folklore. I do believe some lepers maybe were sent out of the country and had to live in the desert and grew in no. and came back into Canaan and fought everyone. Judeans another sect of the Canaanites most likely. Even jews disagree over that.

What folks loring back then could predict the future? Can you?
That is how you know if God is who He said He is. And before the uneducated in the Bible, say that prophecy is so vague, that anyone could fulfill it, it is not. To the contrary, it is precise. Did God not say that He would restore His people to Israel? That Israel would become a nation in a day? And did it not? Are all nations coming against Israel? Is there talk of a peace treaty that gives away Israeli land? Is Israel surrounded by their enemies as prophesied? Can you tell me what to expect 2000 years from now? Because what you are implying is that some folks back then had the ability to predict the future, over 10,000 times, even though you can't. The Bible is 1/4 prophecy.

Have you ever heard of typology, that is what they use. Even some stuff in the OT is rewrote with new people.
There is no such thing as prophecy. There is something like an intelligent opinion of what may happen in the present, like when the cold war started and Russia and the US thought one of us would launch a nuke, or like today if we do not do something about carbon emissions we will hurting. No Israel did not become a nation in a day, in one day it was declared but it had been in the works at least since 1850. Actually they are still working on it aren't they? Killing off the natives!!

No , and no one can, and no one in the bible could either. The NT was wrote after the destruction of the temple or parts of it shortly before. It is not for today. Sure the land is all the same, and yes , they have never quite fighting, but no prophecy. No one in the OT had a crystal ball.
Typology (theology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If that was the case what we have now wouldn't even resemble the Dead Sea scrolls. But it does. There has been very little change in what our old testament says and what they wrote down and then hid. And if interpretation is an issue for you, buy a Bible that includes Koinonia Greek and Hebrew. And a concordance to understand the era and culture.

The New Testament was written prior to the destruction of the Temple, because an event so stunning to the Jews writing the Bible, would have been tantamount in their writings, including the pointing our that Christ prophesied it. It was not mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls either. Because it hadn't happened yet.

If you deny that the Bible is filled with prophesy then you deny God yet again. He said he prophesied so you would know who he is. Which means you don't know what the rest of us do. You missed the proof. It involves dimensions, and science. And being outside of time. God can go forward and backward through dimensions that hobble us, and through those we are just discovering.

He explains, “For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure’” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

The NT was wrote after the destruction of temple. I deny there is prophecy in the bible. The bible was wrote by men, many men over a long period of time. It didn't fall from the sky. Don't quote me from the bible to prove the bible.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were probably wrote before the destruction of Masada. No I do not deny God by denying there is no prophecy in the bible that is for today. You don't get it, You keep confusing God with the bible. Read some history. Read Josephus. Read about other religions.

 

[Penelope]

Either that or a leviathan swallowed Jonah and delivered him to where God told him to go in the first place. Because God is in control. And can do miraculous things.

It didn't really happen. The big fish did not swallow Jonah. Its allegory.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Well, it's your word against God's. And I am afraid I am going to have to side with God. He was the one pulling the strings, so...

 

[Penelope]

Well, it's your word against God's. And I am afraid I am going to have to side with God. He was the one pulling the strings, so...

Robert Eisenman is the one who know most about the Dead Sea Scrolls, start with min 20.

 

[emilynghiem]

It was the Jews that put Jesus up on charges to the Romans. It was the Romans that crucified Jesus.

But it was Jesus that intended to die on the cross.

Some christians say that you can't go to heaven if you commit suicide.

Saying he intended to die that way is like saying he intended to be born.
He made peace with God and accepted the knowledge in advance that other ppl would execute him unjustly. That's not the same as suicide.

The only reason you could try to say that is "he knew in advance" what was going to happen so he could prepare himself and others spuritually.

Instead of comparing this to someone going up to the police station and firing at cops until they are forced to kill them , it's more like God warning a person in advance that they will die of cancer within the year, so that person can plan with family and make peace and do all the things they want to finish before they die. And not try to fight it because it cannot be changed.

Just because you know in advance doesn't mean you cause it.

And Jesus being born in a human body was subject to physical limitations. We don't choose how we are born either. Jesus agreed to follow God's will but was subject to the same. When he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane for God to take the cup from him, he was making peace with the answers that could not be changed but had to be accepted. That was not Jesus will as a man but God's will he was accepting as a man; though he had full knowledge on the level of God, he did not cause these things but was agreeing to obey and accept God's will that was already written like a script.

 

[emilynghiem]

No where in the Bible does it say that if you commit suicide you can't go to Heaven.
The sin you are referring to is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The example of that is, knowing Christ could work miracles through the Holy Spirit, the Pharisees determined that his power was coming from Satan, and not the Holy Spirit of God. That is the unforgivable sin.
You can't kill a spirit. They are eternal.
There is no such thing as purgatory. It is not Biblical. The Catholics finally got rid of that dogma, along with not eating meat on Fri.

Its murder, so you believe it. Does it not say in the bible to commit murder is a sin punishable by death.

No it was never a dogma or doctrine, who do you think gave you that bible, it didn't write itself. Protestants were lost for what 1200 years, there was no bibles in English and lay people did not have them. You need to thank the RCC for giving it to you. Heck even most Priests could not read the bible in 1200AD, and most lay people couldn't even read. Everything was oral , and the RCC and EO church taught Christian tradition , not the bible.

And no, the first Christians were not Protestants.

Dear Penelope I agree with you that killing a person even oneself is a form of murder. However what determines hell is whether we forgive or not. That which causes hell also causes murder, so the relation may be correlated, where these both occur together, but not necessarily causal where one comes first before the other. In war, the hell and hatred go in a vicious cycle, in endless circles, and not a linear progression.

It's the unforgiveness and anger/hatred in our hearts that is "murder in spirit" that kills us and sends us through hell.

So I would say the hateful spirit of murder "correlates" with the unforgiveness that results in hellish suffering.

As for suicide, not all cases are killing in anger. Some are death from mental and spiritual sickness. What is killing the person's will to live may be something outside their control. Grief despair depression and other conditions can be slow killers. If ppl don't know the causes of these diseases of the spirit can be cured, and where to get that help, is it their fault if they succomb to the sickness . So much of this can be healed and cured by forgiveness , so until we share this understanding universally as "public knowledge" and make the help easily accessible to everyone , in a way, we're all at fault for not helping more. So that is how we are are equally responsible for sins of omission. Nobody is perfect, and ppl die from lack of access to help that is out there but not accessible in time because we haven't organized and United yet as a society . It's on all of us, we are our neighbors keepers.

 

[Penelope]

No where in the Bible does it say that if you commit suicide you can't go to Heaven.
The sin you are referring to is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The example of that is, knowing Christ could work miracles through the Holy Spirit, the Pharisees determined that his power was coming from Satan, and not the Holy Spirit of God. That is the unforgivable sin.
You can't kill a spirit. They are eternal.
There is no such thing as purgatory. It is not Biblical. The Catholics finally got rid of that dogma, along with not eating meat on Fri.

Its murder, so you believe it. Does it not say in the bible to commit murder is a sin punishable by death.

No it was never a dogma or doctrine, who do you think gave you that bible, it didn't write itself. Protestants were lost for what 1200 years, there was no bibles in English and lay people did not have them. You need to thank the RCC for giving it to you. Heck even most Priests could not read the bible in 1200AD, and most lay people couldn't even read. Everything was oral , and the RCC and EO church taught Christian tradition , not the bible.

And no, the first Christians were not Protestants.

Dear Penelope I agree with you that killing a person even oneself is a form of murder. However what determines hell is whether we forgive or not. That which causes hell also causes murder, so the relation may be correlated, where these both occur together, but not necessarily causal where one comes first before the other. In war, the hell and hatred go in a vicious cycle, in endless circles, and not a linear progression.

It's the unforgiveness and anger/hatred in our hearts that is "murder in spirit" that kills us and sends us through hell.

So I would say the hateful spirit of murder "correlates" with the unforgiveness that results in hellish suffering.

As for suicide, not all cases are killing in anger. Some are death from mental and spiritual sickness. What is killing the person's will to live may be something outside their control. Grief despair depression and other conditions can be slow killers. If ppl don't know the causes of these diseases of the spirit can be cured, and where to get that help, is it their fault if they succomb to the sickness . So much of this can be healed and cured by forgiveness , so until we share this understanding universally as "public knowledge" and make the help easily accessible to everyone , in a way, we're all at fault for not helping more. So that is how we are are equally responsible for sins of omission. Nobody is perfect, and ppl die from lack of access to help that is out there but not accessible in time because we haven't organized and United yet as a society . It's on all of us, we are our neighbors keepers.

I guess we can say the person already died before they actually take their life, in one way or another, to lead them to that,( minus a long terminal illness with pain which can wear away a person to the point of wanting out). We can never know what goes on it the mind of someone who takes their life , so as RC's we do not presume of where that person would go.

 

[irosie91]

You know Penelope over the year that I have been here it never ceases to amaze me the things that come out of your mind...I personally do not read the majority of your posts for that matter I found it quite humorous your recent try at explaining Jonah...I believe Irosie has your number quite well... Hebrew Is a poetic tongue most of what is written is to not be taken literally... It is mostly lessons and warnings of what one should and should not do to live a righteous life.... To give an example we are told that one day the " waters" will be above the " mountains"... Most people with your powers of deduction would ASSume that the waters are in the clouds and Yada Yada they are above the mountains as otherwise it could not be explained logically....But that would be incorrect what it really means in poetic non literal Hebrew is that the waters represent the people's or free flowing faiths and the mountain represent governments or nations and that one day the people's or Faith's will be higher up then the governments or nation states controlling them...See simple and straightforward if one speaks the tongue of the poetic...If one does not then one is very confused to say the least...Of course with all things you are free to believe whatever you like that is called free will ... I prefer to tell people they have Freedom and that they are Free to be Dumb( Freedom)....So go ahead have your Freedom...... Wink...

nothing comes out of penny's mind-----you are not familiar with islamo Nazi writings----Just about everything she writes is either a parroting of the writings of post world war II propagands written by escaped Nazi war criminals or a
permutation thereof. This stuff is taught in the kindergartens of such countries as Pakistan and-----in the past few decades---also Iran

 

[irosie91]

The Irish Ram, post: 14682549, member: 29246"]OMG I had forgotten how confused Catholics actually are!

Jesus Christ was a Rabbi. He fulfilled the Mosiac Laws. He taught in the Temple! He was the 14th ggrandson of King David. His Jewish genealogy is in the Bible! See what happens when you use replacement theology? You and the church take center stage instead of Christ.
What is it that you think you can add to Christ's removal of your sins? Was He so inadequate at removing sin that He needs your help?
You work, God rests. You rest, God works. Get out of his way.

You don't know any of that. Grandson of king david, really, there most likely was not a King David, so then David was Gods son too, since Jesus was the son of God. Do you ever wonder why they went to such great pains to put his genealogy down, since I mean gosh he was the son of God, so then God was in the lineage of David, crap Davids mom according to the bible was a jew convert, he was not even a real jew.

And like it or not, the churches that will accompany Christ in the Temple are mentioned in Revelation by Christ, and the RRC is not among them.

All those churches In Rev are in Asia Minor, Turkey, and its a warning to them that Rome is in charge. Rome is writing those letters. Rome is boss , top uno in 100 AD.

Exodus shows us a God who forgave and provided for WHILE the Jews were in the act of sinning, all the way to Mt. Sinai.

No no no, don't quote the OT, we are under the NT.

And if you have no regard for Christ, then sin on. Keep him up on that cross, paying for your sins as long as you want. But if you love Him and are thankful for His shed blood, this happens:

Heck no, I'm not going to live a depraved life or sin on, I believe in morals and values, your can sin on, but if there is an afterlife, you will answer for your sins. They are not washed away till you repent.

[
poor penny screwed it up again RUTH was the great grandmother of King David RUTH was a convert to Judaism------rendering her a true blue jewess------terrific Succoth romance---right there on the threshing floor

 

[Penelope]

The Irish Ram, post: 14682549, member: 29246"]OMG I had forgotten how confused Catholics actually are!

Jesus Christ was a Rabbi. He fulfilled the Mosiac Laws. He taught in the Temple! He was the 14th ggrandson of King David. His Jewish genealogy is in the Bible! See what happens when you use replacement theology? You and the church take center stage instead of Christ.
What is it that you think you can add to Christ's removal of your sins? Was He so inadequate at removing sin that He needs your help?
You work, God rests. You rest, God works. Get out of his way.

You don't know any of that. Grandson of king david, really, there most likely was not a King David, so then David was Gods son too, since Jesus was the son of God. Do you ever wonder why they went to such great pains to put his genealogy down, since I mean gosh he was the son of God, so then God was in the lineage of David, crap Davids mom according to the bible was a jew convert, he was not even a real jew.

And like it or not, the churches that will accompany Christ in the Temple are mentioned in Revelation by Christ, and the RRC is not among them.

All those churches In Rev are in Asia Minor, Turkey, and its a warning to them that Rome is in charge. Rome is writing those letters. Rome is boss , top uno in 100 AD.

Exodus shows us a God who forgave and provided for WHILE the Jews were in the act of sinning, all the way to Mt. Sinai.

No no no, don't quote the OT, we are under the NT.

And if you have no regard for Christ, then sin on. Keep him up on that cross, paying for your sins as long as you want. But if you love Him and are thankful for His shed blood, this happens:

Heck no, I'm not going to live a depraved life or sin on, I believe in morals and values, your can sin on, but if there is an afterlife, you will answer for your sins. They are not washed away till you repent.

[
poor penny screwed it up again RUTH was the great grandmother of King David RUTH was a convert to Judaism------rendering her a true blue jewess------terrific Succoth romance---right there on the threshing floor

So even back then one could become a jew, so one does not have to have their Monny to of been a jew. Wow you guys come out with so many different things. The major jewish king was not a jew by blood.

 

[irosie91]

The Irish Ram, post: 14682549, member: 29246"]OMG I had forgotten how confused Catholics actually are!

Jesus Christ was a Rabbi. He fulfilled the Mosiac Laws. He taught in the Temple! He was the 14th ggrandson of King David. His Jewish genealogy is in the Bible! See what happens when you use replacement theology? You and the church take center stage instead of Christ.
What is it that you think you can add to Christ's removal of your sins? Was He so inadequate at removing sin that He needs your help?
You work, God rests. You rest, God works. Get out of his way.

You don't know any of that. Grandson of king david, really, there most likely was not a King David, so then David was Gods son too, since Jesus was the son of God. Do you ever wonder why they went to such great pains to put his genealogy down, since I mean gosh he was the son of God, so then God was in the lineage of David, crap Davids mom according to the bible was a jew convert, he was not even a real jew.

And like it or not, the churches that will accompany Christ in the Temple are mentioned in Revelation by Christ, and the RRC is not among them.

All those churches In Rev are in Asia Minor, Turkey, and its a warning to them that Rome is in charge. Rome is writing those letters. Rome is boss , top uno in 100 AD.

Exodus shows us a God who forgave and provided for WHILE the Jews were in the act of sinning, all the way to Mt. Sinai.

No no no, don't quote the OT, we are under the NT.

And if you have no regard for Christ, then sin on. Keep him up on that cross, paying for your sins as long as you want. But if you love Him and are thankful for His shed blood, this happens:

Heck no, I'm not going to live a depraved life or sin on, I believe in morals and values, your can sin on, but if there is an afterlife, you will answer for your sins. They are not washed away till you repent.

[
poor penny screwed it up again RUTH was the great grandmother of King David RUTH was a convert to Judaism------rendering her a true blue jewess------terrific Succoth romance---right there on the threshing floor

So even back then one could become a jew, so one does not have to have their Monny to of been a jew. Wow you guys come out with so many different things. The major jewish king was not a jew by blood.

what does "their monny" mean? Nothing new---conversion
to Judaism has been possible for good people since Eliezer became a Hebrew-----ie before Hebrews came to be called
JOOOOOOS. If you had ever read the bible---you would know that Jacob (aka Israel) names his son JUDAH---as his
successor to be "HEAD OF THE FAMILY AND COMMUNITY"-------ie HA SAR----or HA NASI Judah was the fourth son of Jacob--(aka Israel) He skipped over Reuben and Levi and Simeon because they were inadequate for the
position ----thus the "HEBREWS" became the "CHILDREN OF ISRAEL" and eventually---"THE PEOPLE OF THE KINGDOM OF JUDAH" to wit DA JOOOOOOOS. Ruth was a lady who converted to be a member---she had children with BOAZ ------those kids were MEMBERS

 

[hangover]

I don't know what point you are trying to make. You are all over the place. Thou shat not kill is also read as thou shall not murder.
You are referring to a Mosaic Law, given to a specific people for a specific time. We are not under the Law, but under grace. We are forgiven. Just as the apple of God's eye, King David was forgiven for murder. We are forgiven WHILE in the act of sinning. That is how much we are loved.

It is absolutely Catholic dogma. The Catholics used replacement theology and because of it had to come up with an all new Catholic version of the Bible. If you have one. Toss it.

The first Christians were Jews. Nowhere have I used the word Protestant. You seem to be hung up on that. The disciples were Jews, except for Luke. They started a movement called the Way. There were no Christian "traditions". They would meet in homes that put a candle in the window to let them know it was safe.
The Bible was put together at Nicene, and Catholics were not allowed to have one. They sat in churches listening to priests go on and on in Latin and had no idea what he was saying. Statues were made to help the Catholics grasp what was being said.
Which led to the worship of statues of Mary. And praying to Mary. <Dogma. Not Biblical. Christ said to pray to the Father through Him, not his mother.
Catholics included Mary in that prayer. Essentially, Catholics pray to a creation, along with the Creator.
Here is a tip. If you want answer to prayer, pray to the one capable of answering that prayer, not someone's mother. Christ never prayed to Mary.

He never prayed to himself either.

 

[irosie91]

I don't know what point you are trying to make. You are all over the place. Thou shat not kill is also read as thou shall not murder.
You are referring to a Mosaic Law, given to a specific people for a specific time. We are not under the Law, but under grace. We are forgiven. Just as the apple of God's eye, King David was forgiven for murder. We are forgiven WHILE in the act of sinning. That is how much we are loved.

It is absolutely Catholic dogma. The Catholics used replacement theology and because of it had to come up with an all new Catholic version of the Bible. If you have one. Toss it.

The first Christians were Jews. Nowhere have I used the word Protestant. You seem to be hung up on that. The disciples were Jews, except for Luke. They started a movement called the Way. There were no Christian "traditions". They would meet in homes that put a candle in the window to let them know it was safe.
The Bible was put together at Nicene, and Catholics were not allowed to have one. They sat in churches listening to priests go on and on in Latin and had no idea what he was saying. Statues were made to help the Catholics grasp what was being said.
Which led to the worship of statues of Mary. And praying to Mary. <Dogma. Not Biblical. Christ said to pray to the Father through Him, not his mother.
Catholics included Mary in that prayer. Essentially, Catholics pray to a creation, along with the Creator.
Here is a tip. If you want answer to prayer, pray to the one capable of answering that prayer, not someone's mother. Christ never prayed to Mary.

He never prayed to himself either.

sheeeeesh-----that's what the ANGELS are for-------they float around and sing

 

[hangover]

It was the Jews that put Jesus up on charges to the Romans. It was the Romans that crucified Jesus.

But it was Jesus that intended to die on the cross.

Some christians say that you can't go to heaven if you commit suicide.

Saying he intended to die that way is like saying he intended to be born.
He made peace with God and accepted the knowledge in advance that other ppl would execute him unjustly. That's not the same as suicide.

The only reason you could try to say that is "he knew in advance" what was going to happen so he could prepare himself and others spuritually.

Instead of comparing this to someone going up to the police station and firing at cops until they are forced to kill them , it's more like God warning a person in advance that they will die of cancer within the year, so that person can plan with family and make peace and do all the things they want to finish before they die. And not try to fight it because it cannot be changed.

Just because you know in advance doesn't mean you cause it.

And Jesus being born in a human body was subject to physical limitations. We don't choose how we are born either. Jesus agreed to follow God's will but was subject to the same. When he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane for God to take the cup from him, he was making peace with the answers that could not be changed but had to be accepted. That was not Jesus will as a man but God's will he was accepting as a man; though he had full knowledge on the level of God, he did not cause these things but was agreeing to obey and accept God's will that was already written like a script.

He did intend to be born.....before the foundations of the earth.

 

[irosie91]

It was the Jews that put Jesus up on charges to the Romans. It was the Romans that crucified Jesus.

But it was Jesus that intended to die on the cross.

Some christians say that you can't go to heaven if you commit suicide.

Saying he intended to die that way is like saying he intended to be born.
He made peace with God and accepted the knowledge in advance that other ppl would execute him unjustly. That's not the same as suicide.

The only reason you could try to say that is "he knew in advance" what was going to happen so he could prepare himself and others spuritually.

Instead of comparing this to someone going up to the police station and firing at cops until they are forced to kill them , it's more like God warning a person in advance that they will die of cancer within the year, so that person can plan with family and make peace and do all the things they want to finish before they die. And not try to fight it because it cannot be changed.

Just because you know in advance doesn't mean you cause it.

And Jesus being born in a human body was subject to physical limitations. We don't choose how we are born either. Jesus agreed to follow God's will but was subject to the same. When he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane for God to take the cup from him, he was making peace with the answers that could not be changed but had to be accepted. That was not Jesus will as a man but God's will he was accepting as a man; though he had full knowledge on the level of God, he did not cause these things but was agreeing to obey and accept God's will that was already written like a script.

He did intend to be born.....before the foundations of the earth.

He should have intended to be born somewhere else