Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
I don't think you understand the difference between mortal and venial sins. :-\
You can't repent a mortal sin. What are you talking about?
Likewise, the point of a mortal sin is it destroys the grace behind which universal reconciliation is justified.
Look. Universal reconciliation recognizes that all souls will be saved because of the grace of God.
A mortal sin kills the soul because grace has been destroyed. No grace means no salvation because there's nothing to be saved.
Catholics recognize that everyone's endowed with grace, but mortal sins can still be committed such that grace is lost. They cannot be repented since there is no grace available to repent with which should be common sense anyway. If people could repent despite committing mortal sins, then what's the point? It'd be like saying you could punch someone in the face as long as you say you're sorry after.
You get your theology from Wiki? No wonder you are confused.
Look. Universal reconciliation recognizes that all souls will be saved because of the grace of God.
A mortal sin kills the soul because grace has been destroyed. No grace means no salvation because there's nothing to be saved.
Catholics recognize that everyone's endowed with grace, but mortal sins can still be committed such that grace is lost. They cannot be repented since there is no grace available to repent with which should be common sense anyway. If people could repent despite committing mortal sins, then what's the point? It'd be like saying you could punch someone in the face as long as you say you're sorry after.
That is not how it works.
If it makes you fell better, I was wrong when I said you don't understand what you are talking about. The truth is your are batshit crazy.
Educate yourself.
Catholic Doctrine of Salvation | Penance | Salvation | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
are you naturally this stupid or do you work on it?Theological Determinism
Theological determinism comes in two varieties. The first is based on the notion of foreknowledge: if God is an omniscient being, and if omniscience applies to the future (as well as to the past and present), then the future is known by God. But in that case, the future can only be what God knows it to be. No alternatives are possible. If God knows that it is going to rain tomorrow, then, regardless of what the weather forecast might be, it will definitely rain tomorrow. And if God knows that Jerry Falwell will decide to become an atheist sometime next week, then that is what inevitably must happen.
The second kind of theological determinism follows from the concept of divine preordination: if God is the ultimate cause behind everything, then He has preordained all that will ever occur, and once again there can be no deviation from the future's pre-set pattern. The preordination of the future is by definition a kind of determinism, so there is no arguing against it if one accepts the premise. (This is a type of causal determinism; the first kind of theological determinism is not.)
Theological determinism depends, of course, on whether or not God exists. Since there is no evidence for the existence of a supreme being, this kind of determinism is not logically compelling. And even if one accepts God's existence, it does not necessarily follow that God has preordained the future, or that He his omniscient, or that omniscience applies to the future. But for those with orthodox religious views things are not so simple. The notion of foreknowledge, at least, is essential to the orthodox concept of a supreme being. And yet the orthodox also wish to maintain the existence of free will, and thus reject determinism (though there are exceptions which are "orthodox" enough, e.g. Calvinism).
Now, some argue that knowledge of the future does not necessitate the future in any way: I may know that you are going to do x tomorrow, but that does not mean that you aren't freely choosing to do it. Whether or not this is right depends on how strongly we interpret what it means to have knowledge. If knowledge is supposed to imply certainty, then I cannot know that you are going to do x tomorrow unless I can somehow foretell the future. I may have very good reasons to believe that you will do x, and it may turn out that you will do x. But if it was the case that you might not have done x, then I did not really know.
One may of course use the term "knowledge" in a less strict sense in which the above would no longer apply. But when it comes to God's knowledge, as usually understood, there seems no doubt that it ought to be absolutely certain knowledge. God is after all supposed to be infallible.
Another common attempt to resolve the problem of foreknowledge is to claim that God exists outside of time. From this extra-temporal vantage point, God does not know the future beforehand. There is no "before" or "after" for God. Instead, He observes all of existence — past, present and future — as we observe the present. And as a result, His knowledge of the future is not foreknowledge, and so does not conflict with human freedom.
The "outside of time" argument is not easy to analyze because, so far as I can tell, no one knows what it really means to be outside of time. I believe the best way to tackle the argument is to consider how our situation is changed, if at all, on the supposition that God is in fact extra-temporal. God may be outside of time, but we're not. Now, for us the important thing is whether our future is something which is known. Wherever God is, if He knows our future, then from the vantage point of our present selves the future is in fact known. Our situation therefore has not changed in any way. The important thing is not how God possesses knowledge of the future, but that there is such knowledge. And if the future is in fact known, the conclusion that it is determined is unavoidable.
If the foregoing is not completely satisfactory (for as already mentioned the notion of extra-temporality is rather mysterious, so any discussion involving it is open to varying interpretations), there is another argument along the same lines. God, at least on most orthodox views, supposedly interacts with the world. But if there is such interaction with the world, then it must occur at particular points in time. And at those times, from our perspective, God certainly appears to have knowledge of our future.
Since I reject its premises, I do not accept theological determinism (the argument is valid, but not sound). Theological determinism is nevertheless important in that it reveals an inconsistency between the orthodox notions of foreknowledge and free will.
Theological Determinism
I was speaking from a theological standpoint, not the opinion of some 'philsospher' or professor who no doubt hasn't any belief in God. I wouldn't expect you to be able to make the argument from a biblical standpoint, or you can google search and try again if you wish.
theology is an opinion..
o·pin·ion [uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4.
Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
the·ol·o·gy noun \thē-ˈä-lə-jē\ : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience : the study of God and God's relation to the world
: a system of religious beliefs or ideas
phi·los·o·phy noun \fə-ˈlä-s(ə-)fē\ : the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a particular set of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a set of ideas about how to do something or how to live
Is predestination a biblical teaching?Theology, 1 : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world.
Specific issues are: moral free will; God's possible existence and interaction/non-interaction in the universe and human affairs and the effect that might have on our free will; the Book of Life written from the foundation of the world (universe?) and its implications for free will. The issue of free will is about as theological as it gets. It deals with the source of our moral code (God or our self-awareness), whether God exists, and if so, whether It's interactive or laissez faire.
Christian theology is based in the Bible, what specific scripture are you referring to when you made the statement 'choices are predetermined according to Judeo-Christian theology'?
by Matt Slick
Yes, predestination is biblical. Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass. We find this in Ephesians 1:11 which says, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.” Notice Paul teaches that predestination occurs according to the purpose of God and that God works all things after His will. The "all things" means exactly that, all things.
The word predestination comes from the Greek proorivzw "prooridzo." The word occurs six times in six verses in the New Testament.
Acts 4:28, “to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.”
Romans 8:29-30, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
1 Corinthians 2:7, “but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”
Ephesians 1:5, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”
Ephesians 1:11, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”
By looking at these verses we can see that predestination reveals God's great sovereignty and right to do with His creation as He desires. But also we can see that predestination deals with salvation. Unfortunately, many Christians do not accept the biblical teaching on predestination. Many do not like the idea that God predestines people for salvation, but the fact is the Bible teaches it.
We might say that there are two main views concerning predestination. One is the view that God has foreknowledge; that is, he knew who would choose Him and those are the ones He predestined to salvation. The other idea is held by Calvinists who believe God sovereignly, of His own free will, predestined certain people to be saved, and His choice is not based upon looking into the future to see who would pick Him.
Either way, predestination is found in the Bible and it is a doctrine that we must accept. So, to find which view you think is most biblical, study the above list of verses in their context and see if you think that God predestines according to the expected future human choices or not.
Is Predestination Biblical? | What is Predestination? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
you're running out of dodges..
Have you ever actually read and/or studied the Bible itself? Can you answer a question on the Christian faith or the Bible without resorting to Google and grabbing the first opinion you find that may back up your argument?Christianity teaches God gave us free will and yet at the same time it states God is omniscient/omnipotent. If our destiny or future has been predetermined by God, how can we have free will?
congratulations! you've just described all christianity !You can't repent a mortal sin. What are you talking about?
Likewise, the point of a mortal sin is it destroys the grace behind which universal reconciliation is justified.
Let me get this straight, you want me to simultaneously believe that Catholics believe in universal reconciliation and that it is impossible to repent mortal sins? Then, on top of those mutually contradictory positions, you want me to believe you know what you are talking about?
of course you would'nt ...are you naturally this stupid or do you work on it?I was speaking from a theological standpoint, not the opinion of some 'philsospher' or professor who no doubt hasn't any belief in God. I wouldn't expect you to be able to make the argument from a biblical standpoint, or you can google search and try again if you wish.
theology is an opinion..
o·pin·ion [uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4.
Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
the·ol·o·gy noun \thē-ˈä-lə-jē\ : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience : the study of God and God's relation to the world
: a system of religious beliefs or ideas
Gee, I don't see anything about 'opinion' in there..
phi·los·o·phy noun \fə-ˈlä-s(ə-)fē\ : the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a particular set of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a set of ideas about how to do something or how to live
Don't see anything about religion in there...
dodge !!Is predestination a biblical teaching?Christian theology is based in the Bible, what specific scripture are you referring to when you made the statement 'choices are predetermined according to Judeo-Christian theology'?
by Matt Slick
Yes, predestination is biblical. Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass. We find this in Ephesians 1:11 which says, also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will. Notice Paul teaches that predestination occurs according to the purpose of God and that God works all things after His will. The "all things" means exactly that, all things.
The word predestination comes from the Greek proorivzw "prooridzo." The word occurs six times in six verses in the New Testament.
Acts 4:28, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Romans 8:29-30, For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
1 Corinthians 2:7, but we speak Gods wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory.
Ephesians 1:5, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
Ephesians 1:11, also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
By looking at these verses we can see that predestination reveals God's great sovereignty and right to do with His creation as He desires. But also we can see that predestination deals with salvation. Unfortunately, many Christians do not accept the biblical teaching on predestination. Many do not like the idea that God predestines people for salvation, but the fact is the Bible teaches it.
We might say that there are two main views concerning predestination. One is the view that God has foreknowledge; that is, he knew who would choose Him and those are the ones He predestined to salvation. The other idea is held by Calvinists who believe God sovereignly, of His own free will, predestined certain people to be saved, and His choice is not based upon looking into the future to see who would pick Him.
Either way, predestination is found in the Bible and it is a doctrine that we must accept. So, to find which view you think is most biblical, study the above list of verses in their context and see if you think that God predestines according to the expected future human choices or not.
Is Predestination Biblical? | What is Predestination? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
you're running out of dodges..
Obviously google is your friend..
Let's take one example...
Ephesians 1:11, also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
You do realize that he (do you know who?) is speaking via a letter to a new group of fellow Christians in Ephesus with words of encouragement to continue in their faith. Why would they need words of encouragement if everything is predestined? What would be the point in having a Bible at all if everything were predestined? When it comes to predestination, there is such a thing as an 'upper story' and a 'lower story', the 'lower story' is used to fulfill the 'upper story'. The upper story is predestined by God, the ending is known, however, the details of how that is fulfilled is not known. When he speaks of predestination in this context, he is speaking of the inheritance of all Christians to salvation through Jesus Christ, which was predestined, not that every individual at that present time or in the future is either predestined to be a Christian or not. What would be the point of Jesus's teachings, training apostles? His whole message is about bringing people to Christ, is it not? What would be the point if everyone is either predestined or not to be a Chrisitian, then no effort to spread the gospel would be needed. The context of predestination as you seem to understand it from a Biblical standpoint has no logic when thought through. And I don't think you've ever studied context or been taught the concept of context when it comes to studying the Bible. Context is everything, you can't just go google a segment of a verse and think you understand what it means. It also says in the Bible that unless you read it with an open heart and mind and welcome the holy spirit to guide you through the journey, you will have only confusion.
You get your theology from Wiki? No wonder you are confused.
The theology preceded the Wiki quote which is nothing but a statement explaining what the Book of Life is. But then I'm sure you knew that, as did anyone else that might have been lurking around. It's always much easier to "convince" yourself.
I hope you noticed that I didn't return your sarcasm in kind.
Look. Universal reconciliation recognizes that all souls will be saved because of the grace of God.
A mortal sin kills the soul because grace has been destroyed. No grace means no salvation because there's nothing to be saved.
Catholics recognize that everyone's endowed with grace, but mortal sins can still be committed such that grace is lost. They cannot be repented since there is no grace available to repent with which should be common sense anyway. If people could repent despite committing mortal sins, then what's the point? It'd be like saying you could punch someone in the face as long as you say you're sorry after.
That is not how it works.
If it makes you fell better, I was wrong when I said you don't understand what you are talking about. The truth is your are batshit crazy.
Educate yourself.
Catholic Doctrine of Salvation | Penance | Salvation | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Reconciliation is only possible with grace.
Once grace is lost, it can't be reconciled. What you've shown there is an excuse that's made in order to keep people happy who are worried about falling from salvation after committing mortal sins.
Salvation needs grace.
Mortal sins destroy grace.
Reconciliation needs grace.
Technically speaking, you can still be saved if you reconcile after losing grace, but actually speaking, that's impossible. It's just something that's said to keep people happy.
Another way to think of it is like a car that gets in a wreck.
Cars need spark plugs to drive from one point to another.
Wrecks destroy spark plugs.
Driving to a garage to get another spark plug takes a spark plug in the first place.
Technically speaking, if you drive to a garage after destroying your spark plug, you can get another, but actually speaking, that's impossible. It's just something that's said so people who are worried about destroying their spark plugs are kept happy.
congratulations! you've just described all christianity !You can't repent a mortal sin. What are you talking about?
Likewise, the point of a mortal sin is it destroys the grace behind which universal reconciliation is justified.
Let me get this straight, you want me to simultaneously believe that Catholics believe in universal reconciliation and that it is impossible to repent mortal sins? Then, on top of those mutually contradictory positions, you want me to believe you know what you are talking about?
dodge !!Is predestination a biblical teaching?
by Matt Slick
Yes, predestination is biblical. Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass. We find this in Ephesians 1:11 which says, also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will. Notice Paul teaches that predestination occurs according to the purpose of God and that God works all things after His will. The "all things" means exactly that, all things.
The word predestination comes from the Greek proorivzw "prooridzo." The word occurs six times in six verses in the New Testament.
Acts 4:28, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Romans 8:29-30, For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
1 Corinthians 2:7, but we speak Gods wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory.
Ephesians 1:5, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
Ephesians 1:11, also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
By looking at these verses we can see that predestination reveals God's great sovereignty and right to do with His creation as He desires. But also we can see that predestination deals with salvation. Unfortunately, many Christians do not accept the biblical teaching on predestination. Many do not like the idea that God predestines people for salvation, but the fact is the Bible teaches it.
We might say that there are two main views concerning predestination. One is the view that God has foreknowledge; that is, he knew who would choose Him and those are the ones He predestined to salvation. The other idea is held by Calvinists who believe God sovereignly, of His own free will, predestined certain people to be saved, and His choice is not based upon looking into the future to see who would pick Him.
Either way, predestination is found in the Bible and it is a doctrine that we must accept. So, to find which view you think is most biblical, study the above list of verses in their context and see if you think that God predestines according to the expected future human choices or not.
Is Predestination Biblical? | What is Predestination? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
you're running out of dodges..
Obviously google is your friend..
Let's take one example...
Ephesians 1:11, also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
You do realize that he (do you know who?) is speaking via a letter to a new group of fellow Christians in Ephesus with words of encouragement to continue in their faith. Why would they need words of encouragement if everything is predestined? What would be the point in having a Bible at all if everything were predestined? When it comes to predestination, there is such a thing as an 'upper story' and a 'lower story', the 'lower story' is used to fulfill the 'upper story'. The upper story is predestined by God, the ending is known, however, the details of how that is fulfilled is not known. When he speaks of predestination in this context, he is speaking of the inheritance of all Christians to salvation through Jesus Christ, which was predestined, not that every individual at that present time or in the future is either predestined to be a Christian or not. What would be the point of Jesus's teachings, training apostles? His whole message is about bringing people to Christ, is it not? What would be the point if everyone is either predestined or not to be a Chrisitian, then no effort to spread the gospel would be needed. The context of predestination as you seem to understand it from a Biblical standpoint has no logic when thought through. And I don't think you've ever studied context or been taught the concept of context when it comes to studying the Bible. Context is everything, you can't just go google a segment of a verse and think you understand what it means. It also says in the Bible that unless you read it with an open heart and mind and welcome the holy spirit to guide you through the journey, you will have only confusion.
scathing retort!congratulations! you've just described all christianity !Let me get this straight, you want me to simultaneously believe that Catholics believe in universal reconciliation and that it is impossible to repent mortal sins? Then, on top of those mutually contradictory positions, you want me to believe you know what you are talking about?
No I didn't, I described your idiotic attempt to dismiss it.
no, that would be you..dodge !!Obviously google is your friend..
Let's take one example...
Ephesians 1:11, also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
You do realize that he (do you know who?) is speaking via a letter to a new group of fellow Christians in Ephesus with words of encouragement to continue in their faith. Why would they need words of encouragement if everything is predestined? What would be the point in having a Bible at all if everything were predestined? When it comes to predestination, there is such a thing as an 'upper story' and a 'lower story', the 'lower story' is used to fulfill the 'upper story'. The upper story is predestined by God, the ending is known, however, the details of how that is fulfilled is not known. When he speaks of predestination in this context, he is speaking of the inheritance of all Christians to salvation through Jesus Christ, which was predestined, not that every individual at that present time or in the future is either predestined to be a Christian or not. What would be the point of Jesus's teachings, training apostles? His whole message is about bringing people to Christ, is it not? What would be the point if everyone is either predestined or not to be a Chrisitian, then no effort to spread the gospel would be needed. The context of predestination as you seem to understand it from a Biblical standpoint has no logic when thought through. And I don't think you've ever studied context or been taught the concept of context when it comes to studying the Bible. Context is everything, you can't just go google a segment of a verse and think you understand what it means. It also says in the Bible that unless you read it with an open heart and mind and welcome the holy spirit to guide you through the journey, you will have only confusion.
You're clueless...
Are you trying to prove how stupid you are?
The major problem you have is your complete lack of understanding of a complex subject. Utter depravity is only one of the things you have to consider when we delve into Calvinism, which is the basis of all deterministic theology in Protestantism.
The five points of Calvinism:
The key point here is not total depravity, it is limited atonement. Total depravity/original sin is not the opposite of universal reconciliation, limited atonement is. Even Catholics believe in original sin, and that people are born sinful. The fact that you don't know this is more proof that you are oversimplifying a complex subject, which gets us back to my original claim which offended you.
- Total depravity.
- Unconditional election.
- Limited atonement.
- Irresistible grace.
- Perseverance of the saints.
Yet you keep posting, and proving me right.
