Destiny and Free Will

[daws101]

Great copy/paste Daws



Any original thoughts lately?

so the fuck what! fact is fact....

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I understand, Connery, but if even our choice to believe or not to believe is pre-determined by God, how can we say we have free will?

I wish people that wanted to discuss deep theological subjects would read the Bible before they tried to tell me what it says.

Nothing in the Bible contraindicates free will. Let me rephrase that for the intellectually challenged, nothing in the Bible says that God makes all your choices. The entire book of Job is the story of a man who rebelled against the destiny God laid out for him, yet idiots continue to argue that people are not responsible for their choices because God knows everything before it happens.

If God knows what people will do before they do it, He had no need to test Abraham's faith. The only way to defend that as anything other than us not having free will is to conclude that God lied to Abraham when He stopped him from sacrificing Isaac and told him "Now I know that you fear God."

You either have free will, or the Bible is wrong. There is no conflict between the Bible and free will, anyone that tells you differently is lying. Nothing in the Old Testament or the New Testament teaches anything different, which is why it is possible for all men to be saved.

 

[hortysir]

Great copy/paste Daws



Any original thoughts lately?

so the fuck what! fact is fact....

Actually.....interpretation is interpretation

It's just a matter of which one someone subscribes to.

Your fact does not equal my fact

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The question of free will, moral liberty, or the liberum arbitrium of the Schoolmen, ranks amongst the three or four most important philosophical problems of all time.

I think it is THE prime philosophical topic. It is the reason that God (if It exists) created the natural, rational universe. What other purpose could it serve? What else could God not have done without it?

An interactive God providing revelations and making Itself known to exist would automatically negate any moral free will.

On the one hand, does man possess genuine moral freedom, power of real choice, true ability to determine the course of his thoughts and volitions, to decide which motives shall prevail within his mind, to modify and mould his own character? Or, on the other, are man's thoughts and volitions, his character and external actions, all merely the inevitable outcome of his circumstances? Are they all inexorably predetermined in every detail along rigid lines by events of the past, over which he himself has had no sort of control? This is the real import of the free-will problem.

Yes, we are influenced by our genetic heritage, but any of that can be overridden by will....our free will, if that will is strong enough. Yes, any pedophile can summon the will to override his propensities. No, I'm not arguing that actual psychotic meltdowns don't occur.

The very existence of free will proves that God is impossible?

I have to say that is, flat out, the stupidest argument I have ever come across, which probably explains why you are the only person in the universe stupid enough to make it.

 

[Care4all]

Christianity teaches God gave us free will and yet at the same time it states God is omniscient/omnipotent. If our destiny or future has been predetermined by God, how can we have free will?

Well, I believe God is omniscient and knows all, He is the Alpha and the Omega...therefore He knows the future, so He knows all, so He knows whose names will be in the book of Life, when all said and done, before we even think the first thing is done....

As far as free will, it is evident that God gave us free will from the very beginning of creating Adam and Eve...if he hadn't created Adam and Eve with free will, there would have been no need for God to warn the two about not eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Adam and Eve wouldn't have eaten from that tree without free will....no? So it appears to me, and without much doubt, that God did give man free will.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I understand, Connery, but if even our choice to believe or not to believe is pre-determined by God, how can we say we have free will?

Where do you get that notion from?

Theological Determinism

Theological determinism comes in two varieties. The first is based on the notion of foreknowledge: if God is an omniscient being, and if omniscience applies to the future (as well as to the past and present), then the future is known by God. But in that case, the future can only be what God knows it to be. No alternatives are possible. If God knows that it is going to rain tomorrow, then, regardless of what the weather forecast might be, it will definitely rain tomorrow. And if God knows that Jerry Falwell will decide to become an atheist sometime next week, then that is what inevitably must happen.

The second kind of theological determinism follows from the concept of divine preordination: if God is the ultimate cause behind everything, then He has preordained all that will ever occur, and once again there can be no deviation from the future's pre-set pattern. The preordination of the future is by definition a kind of determinism, so there is no arguing against it if one accepts the premise. (This is a type of causal determinism; the first kind of theological determinism is not.)

Theological determinism depends, of course, on whether or not God exists. Since there is no evidence for the existence of a supreme being, this kind of determinism is not logically compelling. And even if one accepts God's existence, it does not necessarily follow that God has preordained the future, or that He his omniscient, or that omniscience applies to the future. But for those with orthodox religious views things are not so simple. The notion of foreknowledge, at least, is essential to the orthodox concept of a supreme being. And yet the orthodox also wish to maintain the existence of free will, and thus reject determinism (though there are exceptions which are "orthodox" enough, e.g. Calvinism).

Now, some argue that knowledge of the future does not necessitate the future in any way: I may know that you are going to do x tomorrow, but that does not mean that you aren't freely choosing to do it. Whether or not this is right depends on how strongly we interpret what it means to have knowledge. If knowledge is supposed to imply certainty, then I cannot know that you are going to do x tomorrow unless I can somehow foretell the future. I may have very good reasons to believe that you will do x, and it may turn out that you will do x. But if it was the case that you might not have done x, then I did not really know.

One may of course use the term "knowledge" in a less strict sense in which the above would no longer apply. But when it comes to God's knowledge, as usually understood, there seems no doubt that it ought to be absolutely certain knowledge. God is after all supposed to be infallible.

Another common attempt to resolve the problem of foreknowledge is to claim that God exists outside of time. From this extra-temporal vantage point, God does not know the future beforehand. There is no "before" or "after" for God. Instead, He observes all of existence — past, present and future — as we observe the present. And as a result, His knowledge of the future is not foreknowledge, and so does not conflict with human freedom.

The "outside of time" argument is not easy to analyze because, so far as I can tell, no one knows what it really means to be outside of time. I believe the best way to tackle the argument is to consider how our situation is changed, if at all, on the supposition that God is in fact extra-temporal. God may be outside of time, but we're not. Now, for us the important thing is whether our future is something which is known. Wherever God is, if He knows our future, then from the vantage point of our present selves the future is in fact known. Our situation therefore has not changed in any way. The important thing is not how God possesses knowledge of the future, but that there is such knowledge. And if the future is in fact known, the conclusion that it is determined is unavoidable.

If the foregoing is not completely satisfactory (for as already mentioned the notion of extra-temporality is rather mysterious, so any discussion involving it is open to varying interpretations), there is another argument along the same lines. God, at least on most orthodox views, supposedly interacts with the world. But if there is such interaction with the world, then it must occur at particular points in time. And at those times, from our perspective, God certainly appears to have knowledge of our future.

Since I reject its premises, I do not accept theological determinism (the argument is valid, but not sound). Theological determinism is nevertheless important in that it reveals an inconsistency between the orthodox notions of foreknowledge and free will.
Theological Determinism

Which,as I told you before, is complete bunk, which is why the only people that believe in it are willing to blow themselves up.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Great copy/paste Daws



Any original thoughts lately?

so the fuck what! fact is fact....

The fact is you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[skye]

My personal opinion is that we all have free will, within certain parameters, here on earth. We can make choices ... there are lessons to learn and it's up to us... otherwise we would be angels and be perfect.


Then again... what do I know

 

[daws101]

Great copy/paste Daws



Any original thoughts lately?

so the fuck what! fact is fact....

Actually.....interpretation is interpretation

It's just a matter of which one someone subscribes to.

Your fact does not equal my fact

mine supersedes yours..

 

[hortysir]

My personal opinion is that we all have free will, within certain parameters, here on earth. We can make choices ... there are lessons to learn and it's up to us... otherwise we would be angels and be perfect.


Then again... what do I know

And at other times it IS fun to watch "coincidences", where just the right people show up at just the right time

 

[skye]

My personal opinion is that we all have free will, within certain parameters, here on earth. We can make choices ... there are lessons to learn and it's up to us... otherwise we would be angels and be perfect.


Then again... what do I know

And at other times it IS fun to watch "coincidences", where just the right people show up at just the right time

What do you mean?

 

[daws101]

Where do you get that notion from?

Theological Determinism

Theological determinism comes in two varieties. The first is based on the notion of foreknowledge: if God is an omniscient being, and if omniscience applies to the future (as well as to the past and present), then the future is known by God. But in that case, the future can only be what God knows it to be. No alternatives are possible. If God knows that it is going to rain tomorrow, then, regardless of what the weather forecast might be, it will definitely rain tomorrow. And if God knows that Jerry Falwell will decide to become an atheist sometime next week, then that is what inevitably must happen.

The second kind of theological determinism follows from the concept of divine preordination: if God is the ultimate cause behind everything, then He has preordained all that will ever occur, and once again there can be no deviation from the future's pre-set pattern. The preordination of the future is by definition a kind of determinism, so there is no arguing against it if one accepts the premise. (This is a type of causal determinism; the first kind of theological determinism is not.)

Theological determinism depends, of course, on whether or not God exists. Since there is no evidence for the existence of a supreme being, this kind of determinism is not logically compelling. And even if one accepts God's existence, it does not necessarily follow that God has preordained the future, or that He his omniscient, or that omniscience applies to the future. But for those with orthodox religious views things are not so simple. The notion of foreknowledge, at least, is essential to the orthodox concept of a supreme being. And yet the orthodox also wish to maintain the existence of free will, and thus reject determinism (though there are exceptions which are "orthodox" enough, e.g. Calvinism).

Now, some argue that knowledge of the future does not necessitate the future in any way: I may know that you are going to do x tomorrow, but that does not mean that you aren't freely choosing to do it. Whether or not this is right depends on how strongly we interpret what it means to have knowledge. If knowledge is supposed to imply certainty, then I cannot know that you are going to do x tomorrow unless I can somehow foretell the future. I may have very good reasons to believe that you will do x, and it may turn out that you will do x. But if it was the case that you might not have done x, then I did not really know.

One may of course use the term "knowledge" in a less strict sense in which the above would no longer apply. But when it comes to God's knowledge, as usually understood, there seems no doubt that it ought to be absolutely certain knowledge. God is after all supposed to be infallible.

Another common attempt to resolve the problem of foreknowledge is to claim that God exists outside of time. From this extra-temporal vantage point, God does not know the future beforehand. There is no "before" or "after" for God. Instead, He observes all of existence — past, present and future — as we observe the present. And as a result, His knowledge of the future is not foreknowledge, and so does not conflict with human freedom.

The "outside of time" argument is not easy to analyze because, so far as I can tell, no one knows what it really means to be outside of time. I believe the best way to tackle the argument is to consider how our situation is changed, if at all, on the supposition that God is in fact extra-temporal. God may be outside of time, but we're not. Now, for us the important thing is whether our future is something which is known. Wherever God is, if He knows our future, then from the vantage point of our present selves the future is in fact known. Our situation therefore has not changed in any way. The important thing is not how God possesses knowledge of the future, but that there is such knowledge. And if the future is in fact known, the conclusion that it is determined is unavoidable.

If the foregoing is not completely satisfactory (for as already mentioned the notion of extra-temporality is rather mysterious, so any discussion involving it is open to varying interpretations), there is another argument along the same lines. God, at least on most orthodox views, supposedly interacts with the world. But if there is such interaction with the world, then it must occur at particular points in time. And at those times, from our perspective, God certainly appears to have knowledge of our future.

Since I reject its premises, I do not accept theological determinism (the argument is valid, but not sound). Theological determinism is nevertheless important in that it reveals an inconsistency between the orthodox notions of foreknowledge and free will.
Theological Determinism

Which,as I told you before, is complete bunk, which is why the only people that believe in it are willing to blow themselves up.

and as I told you before..what you believe is based on a false premise..also given the right motivation you would be willing to blow yourself up, so your point is meaningless.

 

[daws101]

Great copy/paste Daws



Any original thoughts lately?

so the fuck what! fact is fact....

The fact is you don't know what you are talking about.

once again, you only wish I didn't .

 

[Quantum Windbag]

My personal opinion is that we all have free will, within certain parameters, here on earth. We can make choices ... there are lessons to learn and it's up to us... otherwise we would be angels and be perfect.


Then again... what do I know

I can't decide to fly without artificial aid, or breathe water, but those aren't really limits on my free will.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Theological Determinism

Theological determinism comes in two varieties. The first is based on the notion of foreknowledge: if God is an omniscient being, and if omniscience applies to the future (as well as to the past and present), then the future is known by God. But in that case, the future can only be what God knows it to be. No alternatives are possible. If God knows that it is going to rain tomorrow, then, regardless of what the weather forecast might be, it will definitely rain tomorrow. And if God knows that Jerry Falwell will decide to become an atheist sometime next week, then that is what inevitably must happen.

The second kind of theological determinism follows from the concept of divine preordination: if God is the ultimate cause behind everything, then He has preordained all that will ever occur, and once again there can be no deviation from the future's pre-set pattern. The preordination of the future is by definition a kind of determinism, so there is no arguing against it if one accepts the premise. (This is a type of causal determinism; the first kind of theological determinism is not.)

Theological determinism depends, of course, on whether or not God exists. Since there is no evidence for the existence of a supreme being, this kind of determinism is not logically compelling. And even if one accepts God's existence, it does not necessarily follow that God has preordained the future, or that He his omniscient, or that omniscience applies to the future. But for those with orthodox religious views things are not so simple. The notion of foreknowledge, at least, is essential to the orthodox concept of a supreme being. And yet the orthodox also wish to maintain the existence of free will, and thus reject determinism (though there are exceptions which are "orthodox" enough, e.g. Calvinism).

Now, some argue that knowledge of the future does not necessitate the future in any way: I may know that you are going to do x tomorrow, but that does not mean that you aren't freely choosing to do it. Whether or not this is right depends on how strongly we interpret what it means to have knowledge. If knowledge is supposed to imply certainty, then I cannot know that you are going to do x tomorrow unless I can somehow foretell the future. I may have very good reasons to believe that you will do x, and it may turn out that you will do x. But if it was the case that you might not have done x, then I did not really know.

One may of course use the term "knowledge" in a less strict sense in which the above would no longer apply. But when it comes to God's knowledge, as usually understood, there seems no doubt that it ought to be absolutely certain knowledge. God is after all supposed to be infallible.

Another common attempt to resolve the problem of foreknowledge is to claim that God exists outside of time. From this extra-temporal vantage point, God does not know the future beforehand. There is no "before" or "after" for God. Instead, He observes all of existence — past, present and future — as we observe the present. And as a result, His knowledge of the future is not foreknowledge, and so does not conflict with human freedom.

The "outside of time" argument is not easy to analyze because, so far as I can tell, no one knows what it really means to be outside of time. I believe the best way to tackle the argument is to consider how our situation is changed, if at all, on the supposition that God is in fact extra-temporal. God may be outside of time, but we're not. Now, for us the important thing is whether our future is something which is known. Wherever God is, if He knows our future, then from the vantage point of our present selves the future is in fact known. Our situation therefore has not changed in any way. The important thing is not how God possesses knowledge of the future, but that there is such knowledge. And if the future is in fact known, the conclusion that it is determined is unavoidable.

If the foregoing is not completely satisfactory (for as already mentioned the notion of extra-temporality is rather mysterious, so any discussion involving it is open to varying interpretations), there is another argument along the same lines. God, at least on most orthodox views, supposedly interacts with the world. But if there is such interaction with the world, then it must occur at particular points in time. And at those times, from our perspective, God certainly appears to have knowledge of our future.

Since I reject its premises, I do not accept theological determinism (the argument is valid, but not sound). Theological determinism is nevertheless important in that it reveals an inconsistency between the orthodox notions of foreknowledge and free will.
Theological Determinism

Which,as I told you before, is complete bunk, which is why the only people that believe in it are willing to blow themselves up.

and as I told you before..what you believe is based on a false premise..also given the right motivation you would be willing to blow yourself up, so your point is meaningless.

I bet you couldn't come up with a motivation for me to blow myself up, which proves that all you have is empty words and no idea how to express your ideas.

 

[hortysir]

My personal opinion is that we all have free will, within certain parameters, here on earth. We can make choices ... there are lessons to learn and it's up to us... otherwise we would be angels and be perfect.


Then again... what do I know

And at other times it IS fun to watch "coincidences", where just the right people show up at just the right time

What do you mean?

You've never seen eerie coincidences like a car careening into a canal just as an experienced diver just happened to be coming down that same deserted stretch of road?
Or some such thing.

As a person of faith, I'm always in awe of (what I see as) Him putting people where they're needed at just the right time

 

[daws101]

My personal opinion is that we all have free will, within certain parameters, here on earth. We can make choices ... there are lessons to learn and it's up to us... otherwise we would be angels and be perfect.


Then again... what do I know

I can't decide to fly without artificial aid, or breathe water, but those aren't really limits on my free will.

at one time you did breath liquid...

 

[daws101]

Which,as I told you before, is complete bunk, which is why the only people that believe in it are willing to blow themselves up.

and as I told you before..what you believe is based on a false premise..also given the right motivation you would be willing to blow yourself up, so your point is meaningless.

I bet you couldn't come up with a motivation for me to blow myself up, which proves that all you have is empty words and no idea how to express your ideas.

whatever you say dear..
try this one on...pretend you have a family and the only possible way to save them is blow yourself up.
it's a question of what's more important to you your life or the lives of your family ..
one life or several?
selfishness or unselfishness ?

 

[skye]

And at other times it IS fun to watch "coincidences", where just the right people show up at just the right time

What do you mean?

You've never seen eerie coincidences like a car careening into a canal just as an experienced diver just happened to be coming down that same deserted stretch of road?
Or some such thing.

As a person of faith, I'm always in awe of (what I see as) Him putting people where they're needed at just the right time

Yes, I believe in that too!

 

[daws101]

And at other times it IS fun to watch "coincidences", where just the right people show up at just the right time

What do you mean?

You've never seen eerie coincidences like a car careening into a canal just as an experienced diver just happened to be coming down that same deserted stretch of road?
Or some such thing.

As a person of faith, I'm always in awe of (what I see as) Him putting people where they're needed at just the right time

then it would not be a coincidence...
because "god" planned that event to occur just the way it did..
fine proof of no free will or accidental good timing.. you choose.