We have a winner.
Democratic Socialism/Communism is the only solution to advanced automation & artificial intelligence.
- Thread starter TruthNotBS
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GWV5903
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You’re irrelevant, Friedman would slice you open in a few minutes. Only a fool would say he’s irrelevant.
Oh I believe Artificial (fake) Intelligence has a future, I just don’t believe it’s as significant as you think. You reference several successful billionaires, I wouldn’t expect them to say anything different, after all they’re the beneficiaries. You place Elon Musk in there, he’s the King of Gov Rebates, EV’s were going to take over, how’s that going? The market dictates everything, if they try to force it down our throats, it won’t work well.
No bodies shitting in their pants, you’re just not very good at selling your product.
TruthNotBS
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How would he do that? Obviously, that's just your silly, stupid little fantasy. Friedman's laissez faire capitalism has proven to be a disaster around the world.
Why is that? Be specific.
Artificial simply means it's synthetic and non-biologically generated, but that doesn't make it "fake intelligence" as in "not really intelligent". More, all of humanity is the beneciary of technology, not just a few billionaires. Who do you think contributed to the development of this technology? Just capitalists? You're ignorant:
If it wasn't for socialism, capitalism would've collapsed and dissapeared a long time ago.
The billionaires and other experts all agree with me that advanced automation and AI is going to eliminate most jobs, requiring socialism to save the day again, by handing everyone a monthly check or "UBI" i.e. Universal Basic Income, that will soon become a "UI" Universal Income, because it will be the ONLY INCOME, that people will have under this capitalsit-run disaster.
You haven't answered my question. What do you propose as the solution for advanced automation and AI replacing human wage-labor? What's the course of action that society, the government has to take to save capitalism from collapse? Go ahead, answer the question and stop evading it.
Elon's business relies heavily on government funding, contracts, infrastructure..etc. Yes indeed. The market dictates nothing, the public good does, and it's the people's government that regulates and bails out capitalism. It's not just Elon who recognizes the obvious, it's practically everyone who's in the know. Practically all billionaires and experts agree that advanced automation and AI will eliminate most jobs by 2040. That's not that far away. We had a great depression in the US with just 23% unemployment, so imagine what 60% unemployment will do?
I'm not selling anything here in the geriatric, retired fogey, political -economic forum, full of brainwashed, Cold War dinosaurs. I come here to see what the worst arguments are for capitalism. You're doing a great job, keep it up.
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TruthNotBS
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What do you propose is the solution for advanced automation and AI replacing wages/jobs?
TruthNotBS
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How do you figure that you made your own decisions under capitalist rule? You did what you were told and were exploited by capitalists.
Capitalists don't rule. Governments do.
TruthNotBS
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ROFLMFAO!!!
Muh communism won't work because we can't get some loot lent to us (which we'll never pay back anyway) from the capitalist pigs!
You reds are some serious unintentional comics.
The whole world is controlled by capitalists, so obviously, how do you expect a small country that outwardly identifies as socialist and is sanctioned by the US, to develop normally? You don't have much of an argument against socialism, when the world's 800-pound, capitalist gorilla empire is imposing an economic embargo on socialism and constantly threatening it with war.
TruthNotBS
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Governments under capitalism are plutocracies or fascist, choose one.
Governments aren't "under" capitalism. But all governments are subject to corruption. And the more powerful they are, the more likely they will be corrupted. Which is why socialism is such a mistake. It makes government far too powerful.
TruthNotBS
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How does it do that? Be specific. Under capitalism, governments are only serving the vested interests of corporations, rather than the public good. Tell me, what socialism does to the government, making it despotic.
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TruthNotBS
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That sounds more like capitalism.
The Duke
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The Brain Center at Whipple's 1964 - Richard Deacon - Paul Newlan
The Brain Center at Whipple's 1964 - Richard Deacon - Paul Newlan
ok.ru
The thing about computers is GIGO, bruh.
They really aren't that smart. Apparently neither are you.
AI uses code like I used to for eggshell bots on IRC.
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TruthNotBS
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The Brain Center at Whipple's 1964 - Richard Deacon - Paul Newlan
The Brain Center at Whipple's 1964 - Richard Deacon - Paul Newlan
The Duke
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Duh. Communism has never worked successfully.
TruthNotBS
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Duh, modern communism has never existed. What has is socialism, and socialism is what allows capitalism to function without collapsing. On average, socialism bails out capitalism every 7 to 12 years.
GWV5903
Gold Member
You’re not insinuating that you could debate him are you? One of the most revered economists of all time and you, a keyboard commando, and I thought you were just stupid about socialism
And you have examples? I‘ll patiently wait for verifiable evidence…
So who are you again? Can we see your name, your accomplishments, something, did you do anything noteworthy or anything that would remotely resemble success in your career, based on your own experiences? You do understand Socialism has failed miserably at every level, or did you miss that part?!?!
The definition, just in case you didn’t understand
Artificial
- Made by humans, especially in imitation of something natural.
"an artificial sweetener that replaces sugar; artificial flowers." - Not arising from natural or necessary causes; contrived or arbitrary.
- Affected or insincere.
"an artificial smile."
Yes, something we agree on
There are multiple companies, universities, institutions that receive tax payers funds for R&D. Last time I checked, these funds came from a capitalist economy, where did you think those dollar's appeared from?
I’m shocked, you promote Socialism, yet you hurl insults, another example of it’s failure, at least us Capitalist make a contribution with our own money, you rely on my money to survive.
Can you explain this lie, Capitalism funds Socialism, I think you have outdone yourself this time…
So based on your opinion and your billionaire buddies, who’s going to pay for all of the UBI, or UI? Your theory then means nobody works, they all receive UBI, so what’s going to fund the UBI? In reality you are promoting a welfare state, that will eventually bankrupt everyone
And how do you fund it? Also more importantly what type of existence is this going to be?
I think you have this backwards, your question is not valid, you are a leach, a parasite.
The market dictates everything, always has…
Socialism has never been the “People’s Government”
Destroy the country
You’re right, no one’s buying your crap
You can’t support Socialism, much less any argument against Capitalism
I know it, thanks
Be specific? How 'bout you take your pedantic posturing and piss off, propaganda stooge.
How much do they pay you?
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The Duke
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You left out "to fail" in there somewhere.
TruthNotBS
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You’re not insinuating that you could debate him are you? One of the most revered economists of all time and you, a keyboard commando, and I thought you were just stupid about socialism
And you have examples? I‘ll patiently wait for verifiable evidence…
So who are you again? Can we see your name, your accomplishments, something, did you do anything noteworthy or anything that would remotely resemble success in your career, based on your own experiences? You do understand Socialism has failed miserably at every level, or did you miss that part?!?!
The definition, just in case you didn’t understand
Artificial
- Made by humans, especially in imitation of something natural.
"an artificial sweetener that replaces sugar; artificial flowers."- Not arising from natural or necessary causes; contrived or arbitrary.
- Affected or insincere.
"an artificial smile."
Yes, something we agree on
There are multiple companies, universities, institutions that receive tax payers funds for R&D. Last time I checked, these funds came from a capitalist economy, where did you think those dollar's appeared from?
I’m shocked, you promote Socialism, yet you hurl insults, another example of it’s failure, at least us Capitalist make a contribution with our own money, you rely on my money to survive.
Can you explain this lie, Capitalism funds Socialism, I think you have outdone yourself this time…
So based on your opinion and your billionaire buddies, who’s going to pay for all of the UBI, or UI? Your theory then means nobody works, they all receive UBI, so what’s going to fund the UBI? In reality you are promoting a welfare state, that will eventually bankrupt everyone
And how do you fund it? Also more importantly what type of existence is this going to be?
I think you have this backwards, your question is not valid, you are a leach, a parasite.
The market dictates everything, always has…
Socialism has never been the “People’s Government”
Destroy the country
You’re right, no one’s buying your crap
You can’t support Socialism, much less any argument against Capitalism
I know it, thanks
You’re not insinuating that you could debate him are you? One of the most revered economists of all time and you, a keyboard commando, and I thought you were just stupid about socialism
I'm not debating him, I'm debating you. Why can't you point out how he would "slice me up"? The only people who revere Friedman are right-wing extremists on the fringe of economics. All of his ideas about how the "free market" supposedly takes care of everything have been disproven, time and time again. Laissez-faire, unregulated capitalism is disastrous.
Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Vladimir Lenin, John Maynard Keynes, Joseph Stiglitz, Paul Krugman, Robert Skidelsky, Richard Wolff, Ha Joon Chang, eat Milton Friedman and all of the other Austrian school economists for breakfast. Peter Jay, who wasn't a full-time, well published economist, and was mostly a British diplomat, beat the crap out of Friedman:
All of that said. I repeat I'm not here debating Friedman, I'm debating YOU. So present me with some of his talking points and I will go to work and educate you on true economics. DEFEND the position that Friedman asserts, here in this forum-thread, and I will debunk it. It's that simple. You don't do that because you're lazy and stupid.
This was your response to what I said about Laissez-faire economics being disastrous for countries that tried it.
Latin America - The "Chicago Boys" in Chile
Case: Chile under Pinochet (1973-1990)- Implementation: Following the military coup in 1973, Chile adopted a series of radical free-market policies under the guidance of a group of economists known as the "Chicago Boys," who were heavily influenced by Milton Friedman.
- Policies: These included widespread privatization, deregulation, and drastic cuts to public spending.
- Consequences:
- Economic Inequality: The gap between the rich and poor widened dramatically. While some sectors of the economy grew, the benefits were concentrated among the wealthy elite, leaving large portions of the population in poverty.
- Social Unrest: The reduction in public services and social safety nets led to widespread social discontent and protests.
- Economic Volatility: The laissez-faire policies contributed to significant economic instability, with frequent recessions and financial crises.
Russia - Post-Soviet Shock Therapy
Case: Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union (1990s)- Implementation: Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia implemented "shock therapy" economic reforms. These were influenced by free-market principles, including rapid privatization, deregulation, and austerity measures.
- Consequences:
- Economic Collapse: The sudden shift to a market economy led to a severe economic depression, with GDP falling by around 40% from 1990 to 1995.
- Poverty and Inequality: A large portion of the population was plunged into poverty, and income inequality soared as a small group of oligarchs gained control over the country's resources.
- Social Crisis: The abrupt removal of state controls and support systems resulted in widespread unemployment, a collapse in public health, and a sharp decline in life expectancy.
- Putin's more socialist, government-regulated economics, saved Russia.
United States - Deregulation and the Financial Crisis
Case: The Financial Crisis of 2007-2008- Implementation: In the years leading up to the crisis, there was significant deregulation of the financial industry. Key policies included the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999 and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which deregulated derivatives trading.
- Consequences:
- Housing Bubble: The lack of regulation allowed risky mortgage lending practices to proliferate, leading to a housing bubble.
- Financial Collapse: When the bubble burst, it triggered a global financial crisis, leading to massive bailouts for banks and financial institutions while millions of Americans lost their homes and jobs.
- Economic Inequality: The recovery from the crisis was slow and uneven, with the wealthy recovering quickly while the middle and lower classes continued to suffer from high unemployment and stagnant wages.
China - Contrasting Success of Central Planning
Case: China's Economic Growth Post-1978- Implementation: While China introduced market reforms after 1978, it maintained significant state control over key industries and employed strategic central planning.
- Contrasts with Friedman's Views: Milton Friedman criticized China's approach, arguing for more extensive privatization and deregulation.
- Outcomes:
- Rapid Growth: China's blend of state control and market reforms led to unprecedented economic growth, lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty.
- Resilience: The government’s ability to intervene in the economy allowed it to effectively manage economic crises and ensure stable, long-term growth.
- Infrastructure Development: Central planning facilitated massive investments in infrastructure, education, and technology, contributing to China's rise as a global economic power.
In contrast, China’s more measured approach, combining market reforms with central planning, demonstrates the best way to manage a market-based economy. Austrian school economics is crap, it doesn't work (even without sanctions).
I have the facts that support my position, that's all I and you need, not a resume or a bio. As far as socialism "failing", that's ridiculous. You don't know what socialism is and you don't want to know because you're not really interested in the truth. You're just here spewing your ignorance.
Socialism is successful practically everywhere it's tried, without being economically embargoed or invaded, bombed..etc. When socialism is embargoed, invaded, and bombed, it does much better than capitalism would under the same circumstances. Look at the Soviet Union, as proof. It was invaded by the US, UK, France in 1918 and 11 other countries, yet the socialists won, forcing those troops out of Soviet territory.
In 1941, after almost a decade of amazing economic success, despite the Western world's "Great Depression", it was invaded by four million Nazi Germans. Soviet Russia lost 14% of its population and much of its infrastructure. The Soviets lost nine million soldiers and 19 million Soviet civilians. In contract, the US lost 0.03% of its population, only 450 thousand of its citizens. The US came out of WW2 unscathed, thanks to being surrounded by two vast oceans or giant walls of water.
The Soviets had no Marshal Plan to help them rebuild their country after WW2 as Western Europe and Japan had (These other nations received plenty of help from Uncle Sam), yet despite it having to pick itself up by its own bootstraps, it became a nuclear superpower within only 12 years of suffering the devastation of WW2. The Soviet Union (USSR) was the world's second largest economy by nominal and purchasing power parity values throughout the Cold War.
I can go on and on, giving examples of how socialism is the most effective economic system for industrializing a nation and rapidly growing its economy i.e. production.
As far as socialism in the nations that don't explicitly identify themselves as having a socialist economy and political system, due to the fear of being targeted for abuse by the 800-pound capitalist gorilla empire (USA), socialism has proven itself superior to capitalism. It's what allows these countries to provide a high standard of living to their citizens.
Socialism is what allows capitalism to function properly, because without it capitalism collapses. Every 7 to 12 years the United States has to use public funds to bail out capitalism from catastrophic failure, which would plunge the country into chaos and civil war.
Artificial Intelligence isn't "fake intelligence", it's simply man-made, or synthetic-cybernetic-based, rather than biological. That doesn't make it "not really intelligent" or unable to replace human wage-labor. You and your capitalist buddies are being pedantic and weird, claiming AI won't replace waged-work, because it's "fake intelligence". That's just a silly argument.
You're confused as to where money comes from. It doesn't come from capitalists or markets, it comes from a government authority that prints the money and demands taxes under threat of criminal prosecution or asset forfeiture. If a government demands that you pay it property taxes, you're going to start producing, in order to keep your house and other properties. Money is created and backed by the government.
Everything that exists in our economy is the result of human labor, not some magical capitalist invisible hand unicorn. Human labor and its well-earned wages are the foundation of our capitalist, profit-driven economy. Capitalists are mainly concerned with profits, hence they hate spending capital on R&D, they'll rather have the government pay for it. Public funds should be used to serve the public good, not vested interests at the expense of the public. The public should own much of the technology that is now in the hands of capitalists.
If you insult me I insult you. I'm getting insults hurled at me constantly from these stupid, brainwashed geriatric MAGA Hats, so they're fair game. Me insulting you or whoever else insults me, says nothing about the validity or viability of socialism. You're now falling into a logical fallacy. I can be rude and right, and you can be civil, soft-spoken, and wrong. I never claim that my debate opponent is wrong because he or she is rude.
You capitalists rely on the labor of others to live, and without that working class, you wouldn't have a customer base. You're a parasite in society and an unnecessary middleman, who corrupts politicians and exploits human beings for a profit. You undermine human progress and that's why in the end, the working class is going to win. Advanced automation and AI are the end of capitalism.
I already explained in my first post, my position on UBI/UI, so why are you claiming that I am for this? UBI is nothing more than a ploy by capitalists to artificially generate a customer base, once wages are eliminated by automation and AI. Think. Without wages, the capitalists lose everything. They're no longer in power, without wages. Wages are the foundation of capitalism.
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TruthNotBS
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You can't even define your position, when requested to do so, accusing me of being "pedantic", how pathetic.
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