Democrat Rep on CNN: We don't want Small Businesses

Cecilie1200

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llegal aliens work for less than minimum wage. Make them legal, force employers to pay them MW and RAISE the MW and the downward pressure on wages go away.
Importing millions of low-skilled illegal aliens, making them legal and hiking the minimum wage is not going to increase the demand for low-skilled native born US citizen workers.

Who determines the value an employee adds?

Math.

OK. Show your work

If you take $10 of input and turn it into an $18 product in 1 hour, you created $8 of value/hour.
The fact is that these immigrants do the work that American workers are too lazy to do, and $15 isn't going to change that. My view is that $15 is too high a wage for the kind of work that they do because that basic wage is a learning wage only.
What kind of work are you talking about? And what are they learning? Can you give a couple examples?
Farmhands, landscaping, clean-up, etc.
You think picking veggies in a field all day is a learning task? Or digging trenches or cleaning bathroom floors?! What exactly are they learning? And if somebody spends 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year doing those jobs do you really think they deserve to make less than $15,000 a year ?! Really think about that
Yes, I think everybody deserves more. It isn't only $15000. It also benefits that need to be added to the mix and then it becomes a matter of affordability.
Ok $15k and benefits. You good with that for full time work? The jobs you listed aren’t learning jobs btw, they are straight up hard labor
Unskilled labor, and yes it can be hard. A job like that pays less than skilled labor jobs. If you are a business owner, you will look at things a little differently when it is your money and you own the overhead. Trust me. It is very difficult for someone who has never had to meet payroll to understand the nature of business.
I’ve ran my own businesses did the past 15 years. I understand the nature of business. I could never stomach utilizing 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year of somebody’s time and only paying them $15k. I don’t care what job they were doing

If an employee wasn't making you money, what would you do?

.
More broadly, I'd like to know how many people in his life he gives money to who add nothing whatsoever to his life, simply because of an abstract belief that "they should have it, therefore I should have to give it to them."
 

Andylusion

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llegal aliens work for less than minimum wage. Make them legal, force employers to pay them MW and RAISE the MW and the downward pressure on wages go away.
Importing millions of low-skilled illegal aliens, making them legal and hiking the minimum wage is not going to increase the demand for low-skilled native born US citizen workers.

Who determines the value an employee adds?

Math.

OK. Show your work

If you take $10 of input and turn it into an $18 product in 1 hour, you created $8 of value/hour.
The fact is that these immigrants do the work that American workers are too lazy to do, and $15 isn't going to change that. My view is that $15 is too high a wage for the kind of work that they do because that basic wage is a learning wage only.
What kind of work are you talking about? And what are they learning? Can you give a couple examples?
Farmhands, landscaping, clean-up, etc.
You think picking veggies in a field all day is a learning task? Or digging trenches or cleaning bathroom floors?! What exactly are they learning? And if somebody spends 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year doing those jobs do you really think they deserve to make less than $15,000 a year ?! Really think about that
Yes, I think everybody deserves more. It isn't only $15000. It also benefits that need to be added to the mix and then it becomes a matter of affordability.
Ok $15k and benefits. You good with that for full time work? The jobs you listed aren’t learning jobs btw, they are straight up hard labor
Unskilled labor, and yes it can be hard. A job like that pays less than skilled labor jobs. If you are a business owner, you will look at things a little differently when it is your money and you own the overhead. Trust me. It is very difficult for someone who has never had to meet payroll to understand the nature of business.
I’ve ran my own businesses did the past 15 years. I understand the nature of business. I could never stomach utilizing 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year of somebody’s time and only paying them $15k. I don’t care what job they were doing

If an employee wasn't making you money, what would you do?

.
Is it the employees job to make me money?
Unless it’s Socialism then yes.
How much money does a janitor make for a school?

A lot less than a teacher who'd have to do the cleaning if he wasn't there. It's called value added. I thought you own a business, you don't seem to know much about running one.

.
I asked a simple question... how much money does a janitor make for a school?
You didn't say what kind of school.

.
You choose

Since most schools are not profit making businesses it's irrelevant to the conversation. No one is there to make money for the school. Any more deflections?

.
Haha, these aren’t deflections these are examples of low wage jobs that aren’t directly related to making money for a business. You’ve been trying to make the point that an employee is only worth what they can bring in. I’m showing you thats BS. Get it now?
You don't think a farm hand picking veggies, or a janitor cleaning the office, is directly related to the business makring money? Really?

Of course they are...you need farrm hands to help pick or produce the product you take to market.

You need a clean office to bring in customers....
Of course they all play a part in the business. But the question was being asked about value. I asked who determines the value of an employee? The people I was conversing with implied that it was dependent on the revenue they bring in so I cited examples of jobs that don’t bring in revenue. They are an expense and part of the overall operations of the business
The market....what janitors at similar businesses in the same locality are being paid, for farmhands, what similar farm hands in the same locality, at the same type of farm are being paid.

Obviously if they are good at their job, and gain experience the employer will want to reward them to keep them...pay them more, treat them well....move them up to other positions etc.
But even then, there is still a limit. No matter how much 'experience' you gain, and no matter how 'good they are at their job'.... you still can't pay someone more money than they generate in value.

If I hire you to mow lawns for my lawn mowing company, and the customer is only willing to pay me $30 to have the lawn mowed... I can't pay you the employee $30.

Can't do it. I would end up losing money. Doesn't matter how experienced you are. Doesn't matter how good at mowing you are.

If customer doesn't pay me more, then I can't pay you more.

If I did pay you more, then I would be losing money, and why would I do that? If I can't pay you less, then it would be better for me to not hiring you, and not mow the customers lawn, than to mow the lawn, and pay you so much that I lost money.

Would you do that? Would you pay for a mower, to get paid $30, to pay me $30, and end up earning nothing? No you would not. No one would.
 

Bobob

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llegal aliens work for less than minimum wage. Make them legal, force employers to pay them MW and RAISE the MW and the downward pressure on wages go away.
Importing millions of low-skilled illegal aliens, making them legal and hiking the minimum wage is not going to increase the demand for low-skilled native born US citizen workers.

Who determines the value an employee adds?

Math.

OK. Show your work

If you take $10 of input and turn it into an $18 product in 1 hour, you created $8 of value/hour.
The fact is that these immigrants do the work that American workers are too lazy to do, and $15 isn't going to change that. My view is that $15 is too high a wage for the kind of work that they do because that basic wage is a learning wage only.
What kind of work are you talking about? And what are they learning? Can you give a couple examples?
Farmhands, landscaping, clean-up, etc.
You think picking veggies in a field all day is a learning task? Or digging trenches or cleaning bathroom floors?! What exactly are they learning? And if somebody spends 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year doing those jobs do you really think they deserve to make less than $15,000 a year ?! Really think about that
Yes, I think everybody deserves more. It isn't only $15000. It also benefits that need to be added to the mix and then it becomes a matter of affordability.
Ok $15k and benefits. You good with that for full time work? The jobs you listed aren’t learning jobs btw, they are straight up hard labor
Unskilled labor, and yes it can be hard. A job like that pays less than skilled labor jobs. If you are a business owner, you will look at things a little differently when it is your money and you own the overhead. Trust me. It is very difficult for someone who has never had to meet payroll to understand the nature of business.
I’ve ran my own businesses did the past 15 years. I understand the nature of business. I could never stomach utilizing 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year of somebody’s time and only paying them $15k. I don’t care what job they were doing

If an employee wasn't making you money, what would you do?

.
Is it the employees job to make me money?
Unless it’s Socialism then yes.
How much money does a janitor make for a school?

A lot less than a teacher who'd have to do the cleaning if he wasn't there. It's called value added. I thought you own a business, you don't seem to know much about running one.

.
I asked a simple question... how much money does a janitor make for a school?
You didn't say what kind of school.

.
You choose
My view is that you don't start unskilled labor at $15. As they assimilate, raises should and would follow and possibly exceed $15 per hour if you want to keep them as your employee and they are doing a good job. They also might be promoted based on their job performance.
What do you want to start unskilled labor at? What wage sounds fair for full time work?
Depends on the job at hand. Maybe a driver or delivery person at $10 dollars an hour. If they stick it out and are good with customers and show up for work, a raise is in order after a while and maybe training for a skilled job.
Ok that’s a fair statement. Do you think $7.25 is reasonable for full time work as a driver/delivery person?
I don't think that I could keep any help at $7.25, although I think it is reasonable when benefits are added.
I too wouldn’t feel right about paying somebody that little for full time work. Maybe if I was also giving them room and board or some other benefits like you mentioned
Again you are assuming that everyone has the ability to pay more for labor.

That is simply not always the case. Yes, if you work at an engineering firm, or a some other company producing high value goods or services... sure you can pay tons of money. Because they producing tons of value.

It reminds me of there was a video where they were talking about how Harley Davidson employees are paid more than employees of other companies.

Well yeah... Because their bikes sell for $20K to $40K. A Hawk Enduro sells for $1,400. Do you think the employees making the Hawk $1,400 bike can be paid the same as employees making the Harley Davidson Road King that sells for $20K? No. They can't. Because the bike doesn't bring in that much money.

Similarly, a waitress at Apple bees does not make as much as a waitress at an elite restaurant like the Refractory here in Columbus, which is a minimum order of $100.

Why are they paid more? Because they generate more value. That's how life works.
The $20000 bike may bring in more gross profit and volume in sales than the $14000 bike, and the overhead expense at the store may be less also. It is not about gross dollars but is all about gross income. Sale minus cost of sale equals gross income.
True about Applebees except that the waitress at Applebees will turn over more tables than the Refractory.
They get paid more if they generate more income, not value.
 

struth

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llegal aliens work for less than minimum wage. Make them legal, force employers to pay them MW and RAISE the MW and the downward pressure on wages go away.
Importing millions of low-skilled illegal aliens, making them legal and hiking the minimum wage is not going to increase the demand for low-skilled native born US citizen workers.

Who determines the value an employee adds?

Math.

OK. Show your work

If you take $10 of input and turn it into an $18 product in 1 hour, you created $8 of value/hour.
The fact is that these immigrants do the work that American workers are too lazy to do, and $15 isn't going to change that. My view is that $15 is too high a wage for the kind of work that they do because that basic wage is a learning wage only.
What kind of work are you talking about? And what are they learning? Can you give a couple examples?
Farmhands, landscaping, clean-up, etc.
You think picking veggies in a field all day is a learning task? Or digging trenches or cleaning bathroom floors?! What exactly are they learning? And if somebody spends 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year doing those jobs do you really think they deserve to make less than $15,000 a year ?! Really think about that
Yes, I think everybody deserves more. It isn't only $15000. It also benefits that need to be added to the mix and then it becomes a matter of affordability.
Ok $15k and benefits. You good with that for full time work? The jobs you listed aren’t learning jobs btw, they are straight up hard labor
Unskilled labor, and yes it can be hard. A job like that pays less than skilled labor jobs. If you are a business owner, you will look at things a little differently when it is your money and you own the overhead. Trust me. It is very difficult for someone who has never had to meet payroll to understand the nature of business.
I’ve ran my own businesses did the past 15 years. I understand the nature of business. I could never stomach utilizing 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year of somebody’s time and only paying them $15k. I don’t care what job they were doing

If an employee wasn't making you money, what would you do?

.
Is it the employees job to make me money?
Unless it’s Socialism then yes.
How much money does a janitor make for a school?

A lot less than a teacher who'd have to do the cleaning if he wasn't there. It's called value added. I thought you own a business, you don't seem to know much about running one.

.
I asked a simple question... how much money does a janitor make for a school?
You didn't say what kind of school.

.
You choose

Since most schools are not profit making businesses it's irrelevant to the conversation. No one is there to make money for the school. Any more deflections?

.
Haha, these aren’t deflections these are examples of low wage jobs that aren’t directly related to making money for a business. You’ve been trying to make the point that an employee is only worth what they can bring in. I’m showing you thats BS. Get it now?
You don't think a farm hand picking veggies, or a janitor cleaning the office, is directly related to the business makring money? Really?

Of course they are...you need farrm hands to help pick or produce the product you take to market.

You need a clean office to bring in customers....
Of course they all play a part in the business. But the question was being asked about value. I asked who determines the value of an employee? The people I was conversing with implied that it was dependent on the revenue they bring in so I cited examples of jobs that don’t bring in revenue. They are an expense and part of the overall operations of the business
The market....what janitors at similar businesses in the same locality are being paid, for farmhands, what similar farm hands in the same locality, at the same type of farm are being paid.

Obviously if they are good at their job, and gain experience the employer will want to reward them to keep them...pay them more, treat them well....move them up to other positions etc.
But even then, there is still a limit. No matter how much 'experience' you gain, and no matter how 'good they are at their job'.... you still can't pay someone more money than they generate in value.

If I hire you to mow lawns for my lawn mowing company, and the customer is only willing to pay me $30 to have the lawn mowed... I can't pay you the employee $30.

Can't do it. I would end up losing money. Doesn't matter how experienced you are. Doesn't matter how good at mowing you are.

If customer doesn't pay me more, then I can't pay you more.

If I did pay you more, then I would be losing money, and why would I do that? If I can't pay you less, then it would be better for me to not hiring you, and not mow the customers lawn, than to mow the lawn, and pay you so much that I lost money.

Would you do that? Would you pay for a mower, to get paid $30, to pay me $30, and end up earning nothing? No you would not. No one would.
Well yes, obviously you can't pay someone more then you make....then you'd be in the hole!

and yes there are limits to what a janitor is worth, or farmhand...but that individual can, potentially advance in the company.

More money can be made by the company as well....there is no cap on that
 

Stryder50

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There is a cap on how much a business can make. It's based on if they get enough customers/trade to cover costs and make a profit. Most markets have a limit on how much demand there will be so if the supply exceeds that demand, then the surplus can become potential loss.
 

Cecilie1200

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In which state does making $15,000 a year keep a person above the poverty line?
Who said it needs to do that?
Less than 2% of workers make minimum wage and about half of them are 25 and under.
Why should businesses pay full time employees wages that keeps them above the poverty line?! How about so the tax payers don’t need to pay full time workers welfare to keep them afloat despite the fact they are fully employed. That may be a point you agree with
Why should businesses pay full time employees wages that keeps them above the poverty line?!

Exactly.

If you produce $10/hour in value, what should your wages be?

so the tax payers don’t need to pay full time workers welfare to keep them afloat

Would the taxpayer funded welfare be higher or lower without the job?
It’s up to the business owner to run their business to produce adequate value to pay their employees, just as it’s up to them to meet regulations and codes for the states and industries they do business in. A persons time is worth more than poverty. If you work for yourself and you produce $10 an hour of value then that’s what you will get and you likely won’t make it. But if you are going to employee people then you have a responsibility to those employees
It’s up to the business owner to run their business to produce adequate value to pay their employees,

Some employees just aren't very productive.

A persons time is worth more than poverty.

Usually, not always.
Can you give a real example where a persons time is not worth more than a poverty lifestyle?
Are you willing to pay $20 for a cheap fast food burger?

If the answer is no... then you yourself are an example of how a persons time is not worth more than a poverty lifestyle.

Every single customer that refuses to pay significantly more for the job, is a someone saying that labor is not worth a middle class income.

Next time you go get your oil changed, how much are you going to pay for it? $100? $50? You drive through Jiffy Lube, how much are you going to pay? Enough for them to have a middle class income? No. You won't. You are lying if you claim you will.

When you go get your Starbucks coffee, are you going to pay $6 for a plain coffee? No? Then you are the one saying that they don't deserve a living wage.
In and out pays their entry workers $13.80 an hour. Their burgers are not $20. Nice try
Oh that evil Christian company? You know they print Bible verses on their packaging?


Regardless, that doesn't actually contradict my point.

Unless you think $13/hour in California, is a middle class life.

"Can you give a real example where a persons time is not worth more than a poverty lifestyle?"

That was the question. A poverty lifestyle.

Are you telling me, that $13/hour in California is not poverty? Yes it is. Very much it is. $15/hour is poverty in California.

If you want to have people live a middle class life in California, yeah the burger is going to be dramatically more expensive. I don't know if it would be $20 specifically for just the burger, but it's not going to be $5.
Y'know, leftists are always asking questions like, "Isn't a person's time worth more than a poverty lifestyle?" But they would never think the question in reverse was acceptable to ask, "Isn't my money worth more than the basic minimum workweek of your time?"

The truth is that, in hard cold fact, the income level at which a person lives is not the concern of anyone who is not that person, or legally responsible for that person. And if I'm hiring to get work done, the reality is that that person's time is worth exactly the minimum I would have to pay to get someone ELSE to give me their time for that quality of work or better. And there is nothing wrong or immoral about that, since my work only matters to them until such time as they can get someone ELSE to pay them more.
 

Cecilie1200

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llegal aliens work for less than minimum wage. Make them legal, force employers to pay them MW and RAISE the MW and the downward pressure on wages go away.
Importing millions of low-skilled illegal aliens, making them legal and hiking the minimum wage is not going to increase the demand for low-skilled native born US citizen workers.

Who determines the value an employee adds?

Math.

OK. Show your work

If you take $10 of input and turn it into an $18 product in 1 hour, you created $8 of value/hour.
The fact is that these immigrants do the work that American workers are too lazy to do, and $15 isn't going to change that. My view is that $15 is too high a wage for the kind of work that they do because that basic wage is a learning wage only.
What kind of work are you talking about? And what are they learning? Can you give a couple examples?
Farmhands, landscaping, clean-up, etc.
You think picking veggies in a field all day is a learning task? Or digging trenches or cleaning bathroom floors?! What exactly are they learning? And if somebody spends 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year doing those jobs do you really think they deserve to make less than $15,000 a year ?! Really think about that
Yes, I think everybody deserves more. It isn't only $15000. It also benefits that need to be added to the mix and then it becomes a matter of affordability.
Ok $15k and benefits. You good with that for full time work? The jobs you listed aren’t learning jobs btw, they are straight up hard labor
Unskilled labor, and yes it can be hard. A job like that pays less than skilled labor jobs. If you are a business owner, you will look at things a little differently when it is your money and you own the overhead. Trust me. It is very difficult for someone who has never had to meet payroll to understand the nature of business.
I’ve ran my own businesses did the past 15 years. I understand the nature of business. I could never stomach utilizing 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year of somebody’s time and only paying them $15k. I don’t care what job they were doing

If an employee wasn't making you money, what would you do?

.
Is it the employees job to make me money?
Unless it’s Socialism then yes.
How much money does a janitor make for a school?

A lot less than a teacher who'd have to do the cleaning if he wasn't there. It's called value added. I thought you own a business, you don't seem to know much about running one.

.
I asked a simple question... how much money does a janitor make for a school?
You didn't say what kind of school.

.
You choose

Since most schools are not profit making businesses it's irrelevant to the conversation. No one is there to make money for the school. Any more deflections?

.
Haha, these aren’t deflections these are examples of low wage jobs that aren’t directly related to making money for a business. You’ve been trying to make the point that an employee is only worth what they can bring in. I’m showing you thats BS. Get it now?
A public school is not a business, moron. Any more deflections?
Did I say public school? Let’s call it a private school, that’s a business right? They have janitors? So do office buildings and hospitals and many other businesses, right?. Are you that retarded that you don’t get the point, you need to play little word games?! Come in Bri step it up
I apologize for jump in the middle here....

In a private free market capitalist company, every single employee produces a profit for the benefit of the company, either directly, or indirectly.

If someone does not produce value to the company, then they usually are not employed.

So I worked at a small manufacturing company. Like with all smaller companies, the sales are rarely consistent.

Sales were low, and we had a small crew of people, and cleaning the floors, emptying trash cans, and cleaning the bathrooms and such, were all done by the regular crew.

Well a huge massive order came in, and we had the place packed. Pretty soon, the place was filthy. We hired on a person to go around and empty the trash, and clean the floors, and the bathrooms, and other janitorial duties.

After two years, the sales went back down to the previous low level, and we laid the janitor off, along with the rest of the unneeded crew, and people just went back to emptying their own trash, mopping the floors, and cleaning the bathrooms.

The purpose of a janitorial staff, is to free up other productive people, to produce value to the company.

The cleaning staff may not directly bring in value to the company, obviously the janitor doesn't have a revenue stream from 'emptied trash cans', but it does bring in money indirectly because now I can spend more time producing a product, because I don't have to spend time emptying the trash cans.

If there was no monetary value to having someone empty trash cans... then they would not pay someone to do it.

Every employee brings value to the company, directly or indirectly.
Not to mention, productivity goes down when morale drops because people are working in a filthy pesthole. And you can't do business if the Department of Public Health shuts you down for being unsanitary.
 

Andylusion

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Wages should be set according to the real productive value of the work done by the employee.

If a person is 'low skilled', but their labor producing large profits for their employer, then they should be well paid.
No I disagree with that even.

Because for example, the cost to opening a McDonald's store, averages around $2.5 Million dollars.

The average McDonald's store owner, has invested a million dollars of their own personal money... and they have borrowed another million and a half. And then you think that the burger flipper should paid well for what?

McDonald's stores fail all the time too. The store I worked at in high school is closed.

If that store closes, I being the owner now am $1.5 Million in debt, and I lost the $1 Million I invested... but you the burger flipper think you should be paid well? For what?

If the business fails you lost nothing. I lost millions. You will leave without any debt from the business. I'll end up with $1.5 Million in debt from the business.

You simply find another job. I end up in bankruptcy, or a lien on the house, and spending years paying bankers.

Not to mention the fact that in the event there is a problem, who do they call? You, the low-wage employee? Or me the owner of the store? You don't own the responsibility of anything. I do.

And lets not forget that the business owners and CEO, are often working 50 to 70 hours a week, while you put in 40 hours and leave.

So this idea that you should be paid tons of money for low value work.... just because it generates more wealth... no. I don't buy that at all.
 

Lesh

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Referring to Cecille above

Why would anyone ask such an elitest question?

What...you want a return to slavery?
 

Andylusion

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Referring to Cecille above

Why would anyone ask such an elitest question?

What...you want a return to slavery?
Well that's her point. You wouldn't pay massive money for minimum work. You expect others to do, what you would not.
 

Andylusion

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Someone working full time at minimum wage is above the poverty line.
The yearly wage on MW is $15K. That's NOT above the poverty lne
Yeah it is.


Poverty for one person is $12,880.
 

Cecilie1200

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The market says it's reasonable. What you think is irrelevant.
How is the market saying that?
By paying the gong rate for his services.
Why is the going rate $7.25 and not $5?
Because of the laws of supply and demand, which you claim to understand.

Why is gas $2.25/gal?
Hah! I WISH gas was $2.25/gal. Try $2.95 here. And I'm sure it will have gone up another $.20/gal by the time I have to fill up again.
 

Cecilie1200

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Wages should be set according to the real productive value of the work done by the employee.

If a person is 'low skilled', but their labor producing large profits for their employer, then they should be well paid.
No I disagree with that even.

Because for example, the cost to opening a McDonald's store, averages around $2.5 Million dollars.

The average McDonald's store owner, has invested a million dollars of their own personal money... and they have borrowed another million and a half. And then you think that the burger flipper should paid well for what?

McDonald's stores fail all the time too. The store I worked at in high school is closed.

If that store closes, I being the owner now am $1.5 Million in debt, and I lost the $1 Million I invested... but you the burger flipper think you should be paid well? For what?

If the business fails you lost nothing. I lost millions. You will leave without any debt from the business. I'll end up with $1.5 Million in debt from the business.

You simply find another job. I end up in bankruptcy, or a lien on the house, and spending years paying bankers.

Not to mention the fact that in the event there is a problem, who do they call? You, the low-wage employee? Or me the owner of the store? You don't own the responsibility of anything. I do.

And lets not forget that the business owners and CEO, are often working 50 to 70 hours a week, while you put in 40 hours and leave.

So this idea that you should be paid tons of money for low value work.... just because it generates more wealth... no. I don't buy that at all.
Y'know, people always go on about "McDonald's is a big corporation, so I'm SURE they can afford to pay their burger flippers $15 an hour." Truth is, McDonald's Corporation actually operates very few of the McDonald's restaurants. Their primary business is franchising. Most of the stores are individually-owned and -operated. They are, in fact, small businesses working on a small profit margin with, most likely, not a lot of capital to act as a cushion.
 

Cecilie1200

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Referring to Cecille above

Why would anyone ask such an elitest question?

What...you want a return to slavery?
Well that's her point. You wouldn't pay massive money for minimum work. You expect others to do, what you would not.
I'm pretty sure I said nothing about being able to legally sell someone to another employer, or order them to marry and produce children with the person of my choosing to make new employees for me, or to whip them to death if they piss me off. So I find Lush's reference to "slavery" to be racist, and dismissive and degrading to the history of black people. She should put on sackcloth and ashes and go beg the NAACP for absolution immediately.
 

Slade3200

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llegal aliens work for less than minimum wage. Make them legal, force employers to pay them MW and RAISE the MW and the downward pressure on wages go away.
Importing millions of low-skilled illegal aliens, making them legal and hiking the minimum wage is not going to increase the demand for low-skilled native born US citizen workers.

Who determines the value an employee adds?

Math.

OK. Show your work

If you take $10 of input and turn it into an $18 product in 1 hour, you created $8 of value/hour.
The fact is that these immigrants do the work that American workers are too lazy to do, and $15 isn't going to change that. My view is that $15 is too high a wage for the kind of work that they do because that basic wage is a learning wage only.
What kind of work are you talking about? And what are they learning? Can you give a couple examples?
Farmhands, landscaping, clean-up, etc.
You think picking veggies in a field all day is a learning task? Or digging trenches or cleaning bathroom floors?! What exactly are they learning? And if somebody spends 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year doing those jobs do you really think they deserve to make less than $15,000 a year ?! Really think about that
Yes, I think everybody deserves more. It isn't only $15000. It also benefits that need to be added to the mix and then it becomes a matter of affordability.
Ok $15k and benefits. You good with that for full time work? The jobs you listed aren’t learning jobs btw, they are straight up hard labor
Unskilled labor, and yes it can be hard. A job like that pays less than skilled labor jobs. If you are a business owner, you will look at things a little differently when it is your money and you own the overhead. Trust me. It is very difficult for someone who has never had to meet payroll to understand the nature of business.
I’ve ran my own businesses did the past 15 years. I understand the nature of business. I could never stomach utilizing 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year of somebody’s time and only paying them $15k. I don’t care what job they were doing

If an employee wasn't making you money, what would you do?

.
Is it the employees job to make me money?
Unless it’s Socialism then yes.
How much money does a janitor make for a school?

A lot less than a teacher who'd have to do the cleaning if he wasn't there. It's called value added. I thought you own a business, you don't seem to know much about running one.

.
I asked a simple question... how much money does a janitor make for a school?
You didn't say what kind of school.

.
You choose

Since most schools are not profit making businesses it's irrelevant to the conversation. No one is there to make money for the school. Any more deflections?

.
Haha, these aren’t deflections these are examples of low wage jobs that aren’t directly related to making money for a business. You’ve been trying to make the point that an employee is only worth what they can bring in. I’m showing you thats BS. Get it now?
You don't think a farm hand picking veggies, or a janitor cleaning the office, is directly related to the business makring money? Really?

Of course they are...you need farrm hands to help pick or produce the product you take to market.

You need a clean office to bring in customers....
Of course they all play a part in the business. But the question was being asked about value. I asked who determines the value of an employee? The people I was conversing with implied that it was dependent on the revenue they bring in so I cited examples of jobs that don’t bring in revenue. They are an expense and part of the overall operations of the business
The market....what janitors at similar businesses in the same locality are being paid, for farmhands, what similar farm hands in the same locality, at the same type of farm are being paid.

Obviously if they are good at their job, and gain experience the employer will want to reward them to keep them...pay them more, treat them well....move them up to other positions etc.
Yup, that’s about how it works
 

Slade3200

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llegal aliens work for less than minimum wage. Make them legal, force employers to pay them MW and RAISE the MW and the downward pressure on wages go away.
Importing millions of low-skilled illegal aliens, making them legal and hiking the minimum wage is not going to increase the demand for low-skilled native born US citizen workers.

Who determines the value an employee adds?

Math.

OK. Show your work

If you take $10 of input and turn it into an $18 product in 1 hour, you created $8 of value/hour.
The fact is that these immigrants do the work that American workers are too lazy to do, and $15 isn't going to change that. My view is that $15 is too high a wage for the kind of work that they do because that basic wage is a learning wage only.
What kind of work are you talking about? And what are they learning? Can you give a couple examples?
Farmhands, landscaping, clean-up, etc.
You think picking veggies in a field all day is a learning task? Or digging trenches or cleaning bathroom floors?! What exactly are they learning? And if somebody spends 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year doing those jobs do you really think they deserve to make less than $15,000 a year ?! Really think about that
Yes, I think everybody deserves more. It isn't only $15000. It also benefits that need to be added to the mix and then it becomes a matter of affordability.
Ok $15k and benefits. You good with that for full time work? The jobs you listed aren’t learning jobs btw, they are straight up hard labor
Unskilled labor, and yes it can be hard. A job like that pays less than skilled labor jobs. If you are a business owner, you will look at things a little differently when it is your money and you own the overhead. Trust me. It is very difficult for someone who has never had to meet payroll to understand the nature of business.
I’ve ran my own businesses did the past 15 years. I understand the nature of business. I could never stomach utilizing 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year of somebody’s time and only paying them $15k. I don’t care what job they were doing

If an employee wasn't making you money, what would you do?

.
Is it the employees job to make me money?
Unless it’s Socialism then yes.
How much money does a janitor make for a school?

A lot less than a teacher who'd have to do the cleaning if he wasn't there. It's called value added. I thought you own a business, you don't seem to know much about running one.

.
I asked a simple question... how much money does a janitor make for a school?
You didn't say what kind of school.

.
You choose

Since most schools are not profit making businesses it's irrelevant to the conversation. No one is there to make money for the school. Any more deflections?

.
Haha, these aren’t deflections these are examples of low wage jobs that aren’t directly related to making money for a business. You’ve been trying to make the point that an employee is only worth what they can bring in. I’m showing you thats BS. Get it now?
You don't think a farm hand picking veggies, or a janitor cleaning the office, is directly related to the business makring money? Really?

Of course they are...you need farrm hands to help pick or produce the product you take to market.

You need a clean office to bring in customers....
Of course they all play a part in the business. But the question was being asked about value. I asked who determines the value of an employee? The people I was conversing with implied that it was dependent on the revenue they bring in so I cited examples of jobs that don’t bring in revenue. They are an expense and part of the overall operations of the business
The market....what janitors at similar businesses in the same locality are being paid, for farmhands, what similar farm hands in the same locality, at the same type of farm are being paid.

Obviously if they are good at their job, and gain experience the employer will want to reward them to keep them...pay them more, treat them well....move them up to other positions etc.
But even then, there is still a limit. No matter how much 'experience' you gain, and no matter how 'good they are at their job'.... you still can't pay someone more money than they generate in value.

If I hire you to mow lawns for my lawn mowing company, and the customer is only willing to pay me $30 to have the lawn mowed... I can't pay you the employee $30.

Can't do it. I would end up losing money. Doesn't matter how experienced you are. Doesn't matter how good at mowing you are.

If customer doesn't pay me more, then I can't pay you more.

If I did pay you more, then I would be losing money, and why would I do that? If I can't pay you less, then it would be better for me to not hiring you, and not mow the customers lawn, than to mow the lawn, and pay you so much that I lost money.

Would you do that? Would you pay for a mower, to get paid $30, to pay me $30, and end up earning nothing? No you would not. No one would.
I don’t think the pro pile of supply and demand are in debate right now. The debate is about what the minimum bar for entry level pay should be. Everything else y’all are saying about business operations, wages, value and revenue all still applies
 

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