Debt is Pushing the US Into Fascism

[georgephillip]

How does anyone survive on 28 grand? For that I don't work all that hard. But if they get some govt help I guess they can make it.

It appears capitalists can't find enough profit to provide enough living wage jobs which is something we've lived through before. FDR has his New Deal, and we have a similar option today:

What is the “Green New Deal”?

 

[georgephillip]

Since Germany in the 20s, eh?

Who got rich from Germany after the "war to end all wars"?

The Great Depression in Germany

 

[georgephillip]

Saving my money, buying shares, re-investing dividends......just awful!!!

Paying taxes?
Donating $$$ to charity??
Volunteering your time???

R U a crook?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Since Germany in the 20s, eh?

Who got rich from Germany after the "war to end all wars"?

The Great Depression in Germany

MMT and a Depression? Weird.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Saving my money, buying shares, re-investing dividends......just awful!!!

Paying taxes?
Donating $$$ to charity??
Volunteering your time???

R U a crook?

Nope.

Are you a sponge?

 

[georgephillip]

Liar. "Surplus labor" is paid just like any other labor.
If you want to work for a company that makes no profit, feel free.
They might not be around very long.

Longer than you, Scrooge.

5 Good Nonprofit Infographics | npENGAGE

 

[georgephillip]

What’s wrong with fascism?

What’s Wrong with ‘Fascism’?

 

[Redcurtain]

What’s wrong with fascism?

What’s Wrong with ‘Fascism’?

Do you have a point?

 

[georgephillip]

Do you have a point?

Hitler and Mussolini were wrong.
Do you agree?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Liar. "Surplus labor" is paid just like any other labor.
If you want to work for a company that makes no profit, feel free.
They might not be around very long.

Longer than you, Scrooge.

5 Good Nonprofit Infographics | npENGAGE

You were whining about "surplus labor", not charities.

 

[georgephillip]

Which doesn't change the fact, that without Bezos, there wouldn't be 800,000 employees.

Do you believe all 800,000 Amazon employees would be jobless without Bezos?

 

[Andylusion]

Well yeah I would agree with that... such as giving up my friend to come and steal your stuff in the name of "fairness", means you don't get to come steal my stuff in the name of "taxes".

American politics currently functions as a corporatocracy where powerful corporate interests dominate the policy agenda, yet many of the biggest corporations pay zero dollars in US income taxes. The military industrial complex, Wall Street-DC complex, Big Oil, and the health care industry have been stealing stuff for decades without the slightest concern for fairness: "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." If you object to paying taxes in the US, you have the freedom to pay them in elsewhere.

Trump’s Tax Returns Could Shed Light on His Connections with Russia

There is no evidence of that. The fact you, and those like you, are still pushing myths like Trump/Russia, proves the system is not operating as a corporatocracy. Such mythology would never exist if corporations were in control.

military industrial complex-

DoD’s vendor base shrunk by 20 percent as Defense cuts set in | Federal News Network

Analysis of contract data shows impacts across the Defense industrial base due to spending cuts, including indications of firms exiting industry entirely

federalnewsnetwork.com

Apparently they don't have much power.

Wall Street-DC complex-

Countrywide Financial
Lehman Brothers
Bear Stearns
Wachovia

I could list dozens of banks that no longer exist. Apparently they didn't have much power.

Big Oil-

I'm sorry... the keystone pipeline has been stalled how long?
Sorry, but the ANWR oil drilling applications were started in 1977, and it was how long before they allowed it?
Forty Years?

Not seeing that endless power in government you claim.

Health care industry-

The health care industry that is heavily socialized, and regulated by government? The industry that just had a massively expensive Obama care legislation passed just a decade ago?

That industry? The one that just had the government paying out higher payments for any death supposedly by Covid, resulting in thousands of patients being labeled covid patients, without any actual evidence of covid?

That industry has control over government?

without the slightest concern for fairness: "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." If you object to paying taxes in the US, you have the freedom to pay them in elsewhere.

I'm always baffled with people scream about fairness, and then promote entirely unfair policies.

You know who else doesn't concern himself with fairness? You. That are millions of people in this country, that don't live as good a live as you, and I don't see you selling your house, so they have a police to live.

So "unfair" you are.

But here's what made me laugh... "you have the freedom to pay them in elsewhere"....

You really don't see the hilarious irony of that statement?

You have the freedom to pay them elsewhere is right! Correct! Exactly! That's my point!

They are doing EXACTLY THAT. They moving elsewhere and paying much lower taxes. Apple in Ireland.

Now thankfully due to wise moves by Trump, the move out of the country will no longer be a big thing. I wager that Burger King for example, would not have moved to Canada where the tax rate is 24%, if the US tax rate was 21% like it is now, instead of 35% like it was before.

But the point remains the same. They can move, and pay lower taxes elsewhere, if you jack up taxes, or leave them too high.

When France tried to institute a wealth tax, people left.

Wealth tax is forcing 12,000 millionaires PER YEAR out of France

Edouard Philippe defended President Emmanuel Macrons' new tax break for the wealthiest, saying it is needed stem the increasing flow of the richest leaving France.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thankfully even the dumbest of socialists realized this was bad, and repealed the tax.

The NYC tax is forcing out the wealthy there, and everyone else for that matter.

Andrew Cuomo’s dubious bid to keep the wealthy from fleeing New York

When it comes to socking New York’s economy with tax hikes, Gov. Andrew Cuomo gets it — for now. Unlike with his no-end-in-sight COVID restrictions. “I literally talk to people all day long who are…

nypost.com

Again, even the most stupid, and useless of all left-wingers, can see the system of high taxes doesn't work.

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2020/09/24/bay-area-wealthy-moving-with-urgency-ahead-of-expe.html

Are you seeing a pattern here? Because if you are thinking rational person, you should see a pattern.

You said, if they don't like it, they are free to leave and pay taxes elsewhere.

YES. *YES*.... that is correct sir. You have it right. They are free to leave, and they will. This is why I said before, that every true socialist system results in violence and oppression of the people, because at some point, you realize that when you take people's stuff, and steal their income, they start moving to West Berlin, and you have to build a wall, and shoot people, to keep them in your system.

Socialism can only exist, under the threat of lethal force, and brutality.

Because...... "you have the freedom to pay them in elsewhere" is exactly what they do, unless you force them to stay.

 

[Andylusion]

hat's the agreement. The constitution *IS* that agreement. We all agreed that this would be a free society, where everyone had the right to pursue happiness, not a guarantee of it, and in exchange for that limitation, we agreed that what you go out and earn with your investments, or hard work, or you diligence.... is your property, and mine is my property, and you don't get to confiscate it, and give it to people who have not earned it.

That's the agreement rich white males made, but didn't they steal their land from native Americans? How about all that free labor they stole from kidnapped Africans? Don't forget all the Mexicans who had their land, lives, and fortunes pillaged by exceptionally racist white Americans. Go ahead and WHINE about all that history, but that is where your "freedom" began; you are simply too blind or ignorant to see how that legacy continues to privatize profits and socialize costs for the benefit of today's rich white males.

Again, very few Whites owned slaves. And as I proved before, own slaves in the long term, makes you poor. The places that succeed, are the ones that engaged in free market capitalism.

Why is Mississippi so poor, if all that slave labor made them rich? Oh, because it didn't. End of story.

And let's not forget that the native Americans were engaged in wide spread slaughter against each other. They were murderous, conflict oriented savages. Any real reading of what they were like before the Europeans arrived will tell you that... if you bother to learn history.

As for the Mexicans, they attacked Texas, and they lost. End of story.
The only takeaway moral of the story there is...... Don't attack Texas.

Go ahead and WHINE about all that history, but that is where your "freedom" began; you are simply too blind or ignorant to see how that legacy continues to privatize profits and socialize costs for the benefit of today's rich white males.

You could write that statement about every single country that exists, or has ever existed, in human history.

Do tell, where is the country with the absolute perfect past? Where?

Which is worse by the way: Defeating enemies to your country, or slaughtering your fellow citizens?

Between Soviets and Maoist China, 120 million OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE.... THEIR OWN PEOPLE! Were slaughtered, starved, or worked to death.

Yeah, we're way better than Socialists, by every possible measure.

Regardless of that, if your only argument involves going back 200 years.... if that's all you have for point? Then you have no point. Not good argument for anything.

That's like saying "Something bad happened 200 years ago, that involved your great great great great grand daddy. So now we get to take your house, and you can be homeless."

No, you just suck at coming up with arguments.

 

[Andylusion]

I just said how. He could close the company, collect the money, and move to a small island.

Collect what money?
If Bezos closed Amazon and destroyed 800,000 jobs in the process, what size island could he afford to buy?

Are you suggesting that he has zero assets outside of Amazon? That seems ridiculous, but I suppose it could be true.

First, he would take the company private, then buy out the shareholders using profits from the company. Then he would just close the company. It's actually not that hard, just takes time.

Since he would become the sole owner of the company, all the profits would be his. Then he just sells everything off. Sell off the buildings, the machines, the trucks, the equipment.

Keep in mind, all the profits the company generated after buying out the other shareholders, would all be his exclusively, just like if you were running a company, that was a sole proprietorship.
Then you add in the value of all the assets the company has, that would be sold off.

I would guess.... he could likely walk away from this with between $1 to $1.5 Billion. And that's just from Amazon. And that's cash... not stock. Most of Bezos big numbers, are not cash. They are stock.

And that assumes he has no other assets, but Amazon. I wager he does. I would guess by now he could walk away from Amazon, and never work another day in his life, without getting a penny from Amazon. I would guess he could close Amazon and collect zero from closing it, and still never lift a finger for the rest of his life.

As for what Island he could buy.... Um... Islands are not that expensive actually.

This is Eagle's Nest Island, in Canada. $500K. 20 acres. Islands are not nearly that expensive. He could build a home there, build a race track if he wanted, build a theme park honestly. And never work a day for the rest of his entire life..

 

[Andylusion]

Please explain. If having a job is exploitation, please explain out the 100 Million people in this country would eek out of life, without anyone being employed by anyone?

The exploitation comes from the fact a small minority of owners, shareholders, and executives make all important decisions like what to produce, where to produce, and, most importantly, how to distribute revenues. Capitalism is no different from feudalism or slavery in that one regard.

Worker self directed enterprises on the other hand, bring democracy to the workplace:

Worker Self-Directed Enterprises: The Cure for Capitalism - Resilience

"'Socialism Sucks!' This blatant invective was hurled at me while I stood on a DC metro train reading Richard Wolff’s new book Understanding Socialism. I chuckled a bit, having heard this refrain from InfoWars or Turning Point warriors for years. 'I suppose it depends on how you define it…' I began, attempting to use the same argumentative techniques as Wolff does in the pamphlet dangling between my fingers."

Worker self directed enterprises on the other hand, bring democracy to the workplace:

But it doesn't. You say that, but it doesn't. Mondragon again, the employees have zero say in how the company operates, and people are not paid anymore than they would be elsewhere.

None of these 'self-directed' enterprises are any different than private for profit companies. None of them are.

The CEO is rich, and drives a high end Mercedes, and the stock room clerk, is paid a low hourly wage.

There is no example of your system working the way you claim it would. You can say it all you want, but the facts contradict the theory.

 

[Andylusion]

And yet, he still owns almost 11% of the company.

How much do you own?

Less than you probably.
How many months have you been homeless?

"Jeff Bezos Could Pay Seattle’s Homeless Tax in 3.5 Hours — But Won’t
Amazon CEO’s net worth is soaring. So is the number of homeless people dying in Seattle."

Jeff Bezos' Shameless Greed is Killing People

Pretty sure I own stock in Amazon. I'd have to check, but I believe I do. Regardless, I've doubled my money in the market. So I'm cool with it.

But the way, you can't pay taxes, with stocks. Saying Bezo could pay the tax in 3.5 hours, is not exactly true.

Regardless, I wouldn't pay that tax. Why should I? You even said in your own post just a little while ago "You are free to leave, and pay tax elsewhere".... that's what Bezo would do. That's what I would do. That's what everyone would do.

 

[georgephillip]

Amazon is paying for internet service. I don't know what you mean to imply by that. Amazon pays hundreds of thousands for internet services, and that doesn't include the cost of stringing their own fiber optic lines, and the thousands spent on computer hardware.

So... yes they make money off the internet, and they pay for the internet, that they make money off of. Not sure what your point is.

Without the Internet, there is no Amazon.
Without Amazon there is an Internet.
Today Jeff Bezos contributes a fraction of one percent to Amazon's success especially when compared to the 800,000 productive workers.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Amazon is paying for internet service. I don't know what you mean to imply by that. Amazon pays hundreds of thousands for internet services, and that doesn't include the cost of stringing their own fiber optic lines, and the thousands spent on computer hardware.

So... yes they make money off the internet, and they pay for the internet, that they make money off of. Not sure what your point is.

Without the Internet, there is no Amazon.
Without Amazon there is an Internet.
Today Jeff Bezos contributes a fraction of one percent to Amazon's success especially when compared to the 800,000 productive workers.

Without the Internet, there is no Amazon.

So what?

Today Jeff Bezos contributes a fraction of one percent to Amazon's success

He created Amazon. The 800,000 package shifters didn't.
Sorry.

 

[georgephillip]

Prove it. File a complaint. The Federal government, which routinely fines companies for far smaller infractions than that, would have Microsoft in an audit, and court proceedings, in a matter of minutes.

Prove it.
All the available evidence suggests the Trump administration is loaded with some of the most corrupt lobbyists in US History, so why would they turn on Microsoft?

"When Donald Trump picked hotshot Wall Street defense lawyer Jay Clayton to head the SEC Wednesday, there was a predictable outcry from certain quarters. Ohio Sen. Sherrod Brown, who sits on the banking committee, had one of the most circulated quotes:

"'It’s hard to see,' Brown said, 'how an attorney who’s spent his career helping Wall Street beat the rap will keep President-elect Trump’s promise to stop big banks and hedge funds from "getting away with murder.'”

Taibbi: Trump Pick Jay Clayton Will Be Most Conflicted SEC Chair Ever

 

[Andylusion]

Amazon is paying for internet service. I don't know what you mean to imply by that. Amazon pays hundreds of thousands for internet services, and that doesn't include the cost of stringing their own fiber optic lines, and the thousands spent on computer hardware.

So... yes they make money off the internet, and they pay for the internet, that they make money off of. Not sure what your point is.

Without the Internet, there is no Amazon.
Without Amazon there is an Internet.
Today Jeff Bezos contributes a fraction of one percent to Amazon's success especially when compared to the 800,000 productive workers.

Again, without roads, you have no house to live in. I guess that means we have a right to take your house?

Beyond that, unlike roads, the internet is built by the super wealthy, like Bezos. So who what difference does it make?

And no, Bezo contributes to the majority of wealth that is created. Without him, there would be no 800,000 workers to begin with.