Debt is Pushing the US Into Fascism

[georgephillip]

Moreover, there is absolutely nothing society can do to ensure every worker receives a living wage.

Because the value of all labor, is not whatever definition of living wage you come up with.

For example, if you decided that a living wage was $50,000 a year. That would make the cost of a burger at a fast food joint, would be up around $25 for a burger.

Why did you pick the figure $50,000 a year as a living wage when you don't show how you arrived at that amount?

A living wage means a person working 40 hours a week without any additional income should be able to afford the basics of a modest but decent standard of living including food, shelter, utilities, transport, healthcare, and child care.

 

[Andylusion]

If Jeff didn't exist, there would be 800,000 fewer employees. How much better off will people be, if their income drops from "$13 to $30 /hour" to say.... zero?

Without greedy capitalists there would be no jobs, really?
How did humanity survive for thousands of years before Adam Smith?

Capitalism didn't magically pop into existence when Adam Smith wrote his book.

Capitalism is the normal default economic model of all humanity, since the dawn of time. As I said before, socialism can't exist without someone enforcing it.

All the way back to the first farmer, who sold his produce to buy oxen, in order to plow more ground, to produce even more food, to gain even more profit for himself and his family.... Capitalism existed. They might not have called it capitalism, only because no one had created the term yet.

The first farm hand, the first blacksmith apprentice, the first employer of any kind that hired anyone to help them, the first purchase of more land, on and on and on.... Capitalism has always existed. There was never a time, that Capitalism didn't exist, and there was never a time where it was not the dominate economic model used throughout the world.

 

[Andylusion]

It's ironic that you mention Haiti, when the biggest problem in Haiti, is a lack of capitalism.

Haiti's biggest problem stems from inflicting the only successful slave rebellion in world history on greedy white capitalists:

The Ironic, Tragic History of the Louisiana Purchase That Your Teacher Never Told You

"The 1791 Haitian Revolution secured black independence in the former French colony and sounded the death knell for the European slave trade. It also ensured the expansion of U.S. slavery."

How did US capitalists respond the the Haitian liberation?
Did they free their own slaves or increase slave patrols?
Your freedom comes from chattel slavery and genocide.

Going back to something from 1791, when you respond to a problem in the 2010s, means you lost the argument.

Nothing in you post, has any relevance to the current day problems of Haiti. Nothing.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, I am just another Capitalist, and we provide all the jobs, we provide all the wealth... and socialists destroy every country they have ever gained control of.

Jobs are a consequence of a loop between consumers and businesses. Obviously, middle class consumers and their demand are true job creators and not parasitic, rich capitalists.

Venezuela was the most wealthy of all Latin countries. They had a massive middle class.

Today the super wealthy are gone, and so are the jobs.

If you are correct, then by your own logic, Venezuela should be more wealthy than the US right now.

Instead, there are no jobs, and people are starving to death. And you can't blame it on sanctions. Not a logical argument. If preventing trade with Venezuela caused poverty, why it's it causing poverty in the US?

So how do you explain that? They had a huge middle class. The rich left. Now everyone is poor. How does that work, if the middle class creates jobs, and the rich are parasites?

 

[Andylusion]

That's not relevant to the question. How much someone else has, doesn't make any difference to whether or not the employees would be better off, if they earned zero.

If Bezos had been an abortion statistic, the 800,000 workers who currently toil for Amazon would have found productive jobs elsewhere unless you believe Jeff is the greatest monopolist of all times.

Really? They would have found jobs elsewhere? Jobs created by whom? Another super wealthy capitalist like Bezos?

Which jobs, that are not from the government, are not created by rich wealthy people? Apple jobs? Walmart jobs? Wendy's jobs? GM jobs? Ford jobs? Honda jobs?

Background Checks at the Top 10 Largest Employers in the USA

From retail to food service to package delivery, the ten largest employers in the United States span a range of different industries. Whether you are seeki

www.backgroundchecks.com

Which of the top job creating employers, is not wealthy? In fact, which of top 50, or top 100, or top 1,000 employers in this country, is run by poor people, or middle class people?

Again, back to Venezuela. Remember how they nationalized and seized all the factories, which then subsequently closed down? Remember how evil Exxon had employed thousands of Venezuelans, and then after Hugo Chavez stole all their property, they left the country, and those Venezuelans were unemployed?

Why didn't they just find new jobs?

Venezuela situation | UNHCR US

www.unhcr.org

You want to know why the unemployment rate is only 8%?

Because 4.5 Million people in a nation of less than 28 Million, have fled the country. The most wealthy oil rich country in all of south America, people are fleeing.

venezuela population - Google Search

The population of Venezuela has actually been declining every single year since 2015.

Why didn't they just get another job? Why didn't the middle class created all the jobs? Why didn't getting rid of the parasites result in an economic boom?

Why has your ideology never work at any point in time in all human history?

 

[Andylusion]

All those people you mentioned, could pack their wealth, and leave the country. They could close down their companies, move out of US, and disappear, living a life of luxury until they die.

Meanwhile, the loss of millions on millions on millions of jobs, would leave a massive part of the population without income.

When capitalists can't find sufficient profit to supply an adequate number of living wage jobs, what is the alternative?

Green Jobs in a Global Green New Deal | Labor Network for Sustainability

"In the depths of the Great Depression, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt initiated launched the New Deal( a set of government programs to provide employment and social security, reform tax policies and business practices, and stimulate the economy.

"It included the building of homes, hospitals, school, roads, dams, and electrical grids. The New Deal put millions of people to work and created a new policy framework for America democracy."

But it's never worked. FDRs new deal, by any measure, dragged out and harmed the public in the Great Depression.

And by the way... many of those New Deal projects were not even created by FDR. They were created under Hoover. Why do you think Hoover dam, was called Hoover Dam? Why wasn't it called FDR dam? Because it was Hoovers program.

In fact *ALL* of the New Deal programs, were started under Hoover.

So why does no one admit that? Because if you admit that all those programs started under Hoover, and the result was the Great Depression, then you have to admit they didn't work.

The only way you can self-rationalize that the New Deal was successful, is by intentionally and willfully pretending they didn't exist until FDR showed up, and then they fixed everything.

The reality is the opposite. When FDR passed his Second New Deal, what was the result?

A recession. There was a recession in 1937, after the Second New Deal was passed in 1936. Which by the way included Social Security.

The Second New Deal, caused a recession, in the middle of a depression. Never has massive government tax and spend program, resulted in economic growth. Never. Absolutely never.

Just like there was a recession, that was dragged out into a depression, after Hoovers public programs were passed in 1930.

You know what didn't cause a depression, or huge recession? The tax cuts, and spending cuts, that Calvin Coolidge passed in the early 1920s, that resulted in the roaring 20s.

Just like in 2000-2001, when Bush was in office, we had a small recession, and all Bush did was cut taxes, and the economy recovered pretty fast.

Then later, Bush/Obama passed huge spending programs to "fight" the recession of 2008, and what was the result? Worst economic recovery in US history.

No, the Green New Deal would only harm us. We have 100 years of evidence that it will not work. Never has. Never will.

 

[Andylusion]

Bezos is honest and true to who he is.

You can't be a capitalist without lying.

Did Amazon lie to Congress? Top antitrust lawmakers want to know.

"A report on Amazon from the Wall Street Journal appears to contradict statements made under oath by a top company lawyer during a congressional antitrust hearing."

Glass house? You've lied in this thread multiple times, and now you want to cast stones at others?

If a lawyer for Amazon lied, or if he was uninformed, or if anything was actually wrong, they will fine them accordingly to the level of the offense.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hillary Clinton lied about how people in Benghazi were left to die. That seems a tad more important, than Amazon determining if they want to sell a car trunk organizer under their own band name.

Glass house dude. Likely shouldn't be throwing many stones about that, until you improve your own track record.

 

[Andylusion]

How can you even attempt to complain about people who create millions of jobs, when you have never created a single job, for anyone ever?

Why do you think someone who has never exploited the labor of another human being should apologize?

MR Online | Notes on Marx’s “General Law of Capitalist Accumulation”

That's my point. You leave people to die, and you don't care. As long as you can hide on your fake morality of never exploiting people, you can leave millions to die.

This is why you can applaud Hugo Chavez kicking out the rich, while people throughout the country are burying children they couldn't feed.

I was reading about a CEO who went on a mission trip to Haiti after the 2010 Earthquake.

The CEO went there, and handed out a million dollars, which went to thousands of impoverished Haitians.

One of the women who got some money, came to the orphanage and dropped off her child. The CEO was aghast. He tracked her down, and asked her what was going on.

She said that while the money was nice, eventually the money would run out. So no matter how much he gave her, in the end it would run out, and she wouldn't be able to take care of the child. At least the orphanage could take care of the child.

The CEO was stunned, and finally asked, what did she want? She answered.... a job.

The CEO went back to the US, and carefully thought out what he could do. He finally came up with a plan, got investments, raised money, and opened a Solar Panel assembly plant in Haiti, providing jobs for low-skill workers.

This lasted for several years, providing hundreds of impoverished Haitians for employment, including the woman who he had talked to, who want back to the orphanage, and brought her child home, which she could not pay for through her "exploitative" wages, that allowed her to have a place to live, and food to eat.

Now that sounds like a happy story, but some socialists wrecked it. The Socialists complained this was exploitative. They had the US government, provide a program, that gave out solar panels for free. Which nearly destroyed this small company, because why would you pay for solar panels, when you can get them for free? They had to lay off hundreds of Haitians, and almost went bankrupt.

And ironically this was their goal, to stop the evil capitalist from exploiting people.

This is why you are the one on the side of evil. You don't care how many must die, so that you an live in your morally superior fantasy world.

 

[Andylusion]

Further, what is a living wages is entirely subjective.

What is a living wage in New York City, is different than what is a living wage in Dayton Ohio.

In fact, what is considered a living wage is entirely different than even within New York.

Cost of living varies widely across the US.
So what?

Living wage - Wikipedia

"Living wage campaigns came about partially as a response to Reaganomics and Thatcherism in the US and UK, respectively, which shifted macroeconomic policy towards neoliberalism.[10]

"A living wage, by increasing the purchasing power of low income workers, is supported by Keynesian and post-Keynesian economics which focuses on stimulating demand in order to improve the state of the economy."

So it's arbitrary. You could make up any number you want, and claim that's a living wage.

 

[Andylusion]

Moreover, there is absolutely nothing society can do to ensure every worker receives a living wage.

Because the value of all labor, is not whatever definition of living wage you come up with.

For example, if you decided that a living wage was $50,000 a year. That would make the cost of a burger at a fast food joint, would be up around $25 for a burger.

Why did you pick the figure $50,000 a year as a living wage when you don't show how you arrived at that amount?

A living wage means a person working 40 hours a week without any additional income should be able to afford the basics of a modest but decent standard of living including food, shelter, utilities, transport, healthcare, and child care.

You haven't show any numbers, or how you came up with those numbers yet.

A living wage means a person working 40 hours a week without any additional income should be able to afford the basics of a modest but decent standard of living including food, shelter, utilities, transport, healthcare, and child care.

Millions of people live on less than $10,000 a year, and have all of their basic modest needs met.

And again, in order to provide enough money for all that, are you going to pay the cost, to provide for everything?

Who is?

In Germany, the cost of 3 drinks, and some chicken nuggets, is $20. That's why few Germans go out to eat. Which is why few jobs exist.

Who is going to employ those millions of people who can't produce enough value, to meet your minimum wage requirements?

 

[georgephillip]

Well yeah I would agree with that... such as giving up my friend to come and steal your stuff in the name of "fairness", means you don't get to come steal my stuff in the name of "taxes".

American politics currently functions as a corporatocracy where powerful corporate interests dominate the policy agenda, yet many of the biggest corporations pay zero dollars in US income taxes. The military industrial complex, Wall Street-DC complex, Big Oil, and the health care industry have been stealing stuff for decades without the slightest concern for fairness: "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." If you object to paying taxes in the US, you have the freedom to pay them in elsewhere.

Trump’s Tax Returns Could Shed Light on His Connections with Russia

 

[georgephillip]

hat's the agreement. The constitution *IS* that agreement. We all agreed that this would be a free society, where everyone had the right to pursue happiness, not a guarantee of it, and in exchange for that limitation, we agreed that what you go out and earn with your investments, or hard work, or you diligence.... is your property, and mine is my property, and you don't get to confiscate it, and give it to people who have not earned it.

That's the agreement rich white males made, but didn't they steal their land from native Americans? How about all that free labor they stole from kidnapped Africans? Don't forget all the Mexicans who had their land, lives, and fortunes pillaged by exceptionally racist white Americans. Go ahead and WHINE about all that history, but that is where your "freedom" began; you are simply too blind or ignorant to see how that legacy continues to privatize profits and socialize costs for the benefit of today's rich white males.

 

[georgephillip]

I just said how. He could close the company, collect the money, and move to a small island.

Collect what money?
If Bezos closed Amazon and destroyed 800,000 jobs in the process, what size island could he afford to buy?

 

[georgephillip]

Please explain. If having a job is exploitation, please explain out the 100 Million people in this country would eek out of life, without anyone being employed by anyone?

The exploitation comes from the fact a small minority of owners, shareholders, and executives make all important decisions like what to produce, where to produce, and, most importantly, how to distribute revenues. Capitalism is no different from feudalism or slavery in that one regard.

Worker self directed enterprises on the other hand, bring democracy to the workplace:

Worker Self-Directed Enterprises: The Cure for Capitalism - Resilience

"'Socialism Sucks!' This blatant invective was hurled at me while I stood on a DC metro train reading Richard Wolff’s new book Understanding Socialism. I chuckled a bit, having heard this refrain from InfoWars or Turning Point warriors for years. 'I suppose it depends on how you define it…' I began, attempting to use the same argumentative techniques as Wolff does in the pamphlet dangling between my fingers."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Please explain. If having a job is exploitation, please explain out the 100 Million people in this country would eek out of life, without anyone being employed by anyone?

The exploitation comes from the fact a small minority of owners, shareholders, and executives make all important decisions like what to produce, where to produce, and, most importantly, how to distribute revenues. Capitalism is no different from feudalism or slavery in that one regard.

Worker self directed enterprises on the other hand, bring democracy to the workplace:

Worker Self-Directed Enterprises: The Cure for Capitalism - Resilience

"'Socialism Sucks!' This blatant invective was hurled at me while I stood on a DC metro train reading Richard Wolff’s new book Understanding Socialism. I chuckled a bit, having heard this refrain from InfoWars or Turning Point warriors for years. 'I suppose it depends on how you define it…' I began, attempting to use the same argumentative techniques as Wolff does in the pamphlet dangling between my fingers."

The exploitation comes from the fact a small minority of nomenklatura make all important decisions like what to produce, where to produce, and, most importantly, how to distribute revenues. Communism is no different from feudalism or slavery in that one regard.

 

[georgephillip]

And yet, he still owns almost 11% of the company.

How much do you own?

Less than you probably.
How many months have you been homeless?

"Jeff Bezos Could Pay Seattle’s Homeless Tax in 3.5 Hours — But Won’t
Amazon CEO’s net worth is soaring. So is the number of homeless people dying in Seattle."

Jeff Bezos' Shameless Greed is Killing People

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And yet, he still owns almost 11% of the company.

How much do you own?

Less than you probably.
How many months have you been homeless?

"Jeff Bezos Could Pay Seattle’s Homeless Tax in 3.5 Hours — But Won’t
Amazon CEO’s net worth is soaring. So is the number of homeless people dying in Seattle."


Jeff Bezos' Shameless Greed is Killing People

How many months have you been homeless?

Zero. Maybe you'd have been less of a failure if you tried capitalism?

So is the number of homeless people dying in Seattle."

Their socialist government is failing them? I'm shocked!!!

 

[georgephillip]

He's paying 400,000 workers over $28,446 a year? Awesome!!!!!

Says the Greedy Little Piggy

Jeff Bezos' Shameless Greed is Killing People

"Jeff Bezos makes more every minute than the average Amazon employee makes in 8 years.

"To put it in perspective, Indiana University estimates that the average high-school graduate earns $910,000 in their lifetime, while the average person with a bachelor’s degree makes $1.8 million.

"That means that it would take 43,956 lifetimes for a high-school graduate to make what Jeff Bezos made in the first five months of 2018.

"It would take someone with a bachelor’s degree 22,222 lifetimes."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

He's paying 400,000 workers over $28,446 a year? Awesome!!!!!

Says the Greedy Little Piggy

Jeff Bezos' Shameless Greed is Killing People

"Jeff Bezos makes more every minute than the average Amazon employee makes in 8 years.

"To put it in perspective, Indiana University estimates that the average high-school graduate earns $910,000 in their lifetime, while the average person with a bachelor’s degree makes $1.8 million.

"That means that it would take 43,956 lifetimes for a high-school graduate to make what Jeff Bezos made in the first five months of 2018.

"It would take someone with a bachelor’s degree 22,222 lifetimes."

"Jeff Bezos makes more every minute than the average Amazon employee makes in 8 years.

His salary is about $1.7 million a year.
Based on a 40 hour week, that's about $13.62/minute.

 

[georgephillip]

We are clearly divided by class. It's always been this way. Doesn't mean anything bad it's just a fact. Different classes live differently. Wealthy associate with wealthy and poor associate with poor. In my 88 years of life it's been this way. When SS and Medicare are taken away or cut off the nation will indeed go into a tailspin like we've never seen. Those programs have made life alot better for how many millions of americans who worked their butts off just to barely scrape by.

The class war as a battle of creditor vs debtor has been a constant since the first civilizations formed four to five thousand years ago. It has been understood for all those centuries that debt multiplies far faster than any productive economy yet invented. Bronze Age rulers from Babylon to Jerusalem knew infrequent yet regular occurring "acts of god" would plunge much of their population into eternal debt without debt forgiveness like Jubilee.

What is a Debt Jubilee? - Lexington Law

There are few if any elected Republicans or Democrats willing to reverse this trend, imho. As far as SS and Medicare are concerned, I've been on both programs for the last eight years, and they have been the best years of my life. Without them I would be back on the street with no shortage of company.