Death to the Middle Class

[Mr. Peepers]

The only thing your post proved is that you are a sniveler.

What the hell are you talking about? Do my "increase in cost of living" numbers move you that much? If you disagree, could you debate like an adult and put some numbers up there of your own to negate mine, you know.

 

[Bern80]

I'm not really sure how that notion was started. Just because it's been around forever doesn't mean it's a truism. The cost of living has not increased dramatically. The perception is that it has increased because a lot of people have come to view things that our parents may have had and grandparents never heard of at the time as necessities. Cable TV, cell phones, multiple vehichles, multiple tvs. All these luxury items that people just don't consider as luxuries. They are now considered 'standard' in your 'standard' of living.

I am not talking about THINGS! I am talking about COST OF LIVING (I will use myself as an example).

Rent: My rent has gone up $183.99 in three years. That's roughly 4.5% a year. As opposed to:

Income: I have received an increase totalling @ 3% up until now. Increases were frozen last year and probably this one (for us peons, anyway, I'm sure the exec's will get theirs).

Utilities: My power bill has almost doubled in three years.

Transportation: Metro card for 30 days has increased 20% in three years and will probably go up another 20% soon.

Insurance: My insurance premiums on my HMO went up about 15% last year for no reason.

Food: Good god, I looked at generic store butter yesterday and it was $4.99/ LB!!! I would say that food has gone up 20-40% depending on where you are.


I used to be able to put $200 in saving s every month - as of '06. I am now lucky if I am able to put in $40 or $50.

You're not listening. Ready? Big letters. STOP COMPLAINING AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Tell me, is pissing and moaning about your increasing expenses and lack of increase in income changing anything for you? Didn't think so. If you aren't happy with your ratio of income to expenses you either need raise your income or lower your expenses. It's that simple.

Then we need to talk about a couple of fundamental concepts. 1) Cost of living is pretty much always going to increase. For some inexplicable reason you believe what your employer chooses to pay you has something to do with your cost of living

2) It doesn't. What it costs you to live and how much you make are not dependant on each other in any way. Nor should they be. It costs you to live what it costs you to live, how ever much that may be. Your employer pays you based on what the two of you have agreed upon is the value of your skills and the work you will preform for the company. If that dynamic changes such that you are doing more work for the same pay you again have options other than doing nothing at all except complain: 1) Convince your employer you deserve more pay or 2)if they can't and you can't live with the answer find an employer that will pay the amount you want. This in turn may require you to learn a new skill set because the value of skill sets changes over time. You can't expect that someone well versed with typewriters is going to be paid (adjusted for inflation) today what they were 50 years ago.

You know what. I could go into business for myself. You've given me a great idea. I'm sure I could make a living thinking for other people like yourself.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

STOP COMPLAINING AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

Idiot with no reading comprehension skills... Pay attention... I was not complaining. Those are examples of my cost of living increases over the past 3 years.

It doesn't. What it costs you to live and how much you make are not dependant on each other in any way.

What? God, you're stupid. OF COURSE they are dependant on each other. What is the point in going to school and starting a career and trying to move up the ranks if you can't count on that career to LIVE ON? Move to Russia if you want to see what a fresh hell without a middle class can be.

1) Convince your employer you deserve more pay or 2)if they can't and you can't live with the answer find an employer that will pay the amount you want. This in turn may require you to learn a new skill set because the value of skill sets changes over time.

THE ECONOMY IS THE REASON FOR MY WAGE FREEZE. Again, for the last time. Thanks to the greed of Wall street and other PRIVATE INDUSTRY like mortgage lenders, I do not get a cost of living increase. But I'll bet you my landlord will be raising my rent another 4% next year, sure as shit. You will never get it. And change jobs? Now? Are you kidding? My salary would be cut in half even if I did luck out and find another job. Dude, you are not even remotely living in reality. At least my company didn't lay anyone off...

 

[noose4]

I further wonder how easy is it in Sweden to go from the bottom of that scale to the top of that scale is it is in the US?

You know how when a story is written about a rich person if they made their money on their own a big deal is made out of them being a self made man? The reason for this is in reality it is difficult and rare to do such a thing. That work hard and wealth will come is pretty much a myth, the jobs where I have had to work the hardest paid the least and vice versa.

 

[rightwinger]

THE ECONOMY IS THE REASON FOR MY WAGE FREEZE. Again, for the last time. Thanks to the greed of Wall street and other PRIVATE INDUSTRY like mortgage lenders, I do not get a cost of raise increase. But I'll bet you my landlord will be raising my rent another 4% next year, sure as shit. You will never get it. And change jobs? Now? Are you kidding? My salary would be cut in half even if I did luck out and find another job. Dude, you are not even remotely living in reality. At least my company didn't lay anyone off...

The key is that while you were told to suck it up and accept a freeze. Executive pay was not subjected to the same constraints. Worker level pay has remained stagnant while executive pay has skyrocketed. For comparison purposes, executive pay in other countries has not mirrored the massive increases in the US

 

[LibocalypseNow]

There can only be a very poor Lower Class and a very wealthy Upper Class in a Socialist World. A Middle Class does the Socialists no good. A vibrant Middle Class cannot be relied on to vote for Socialists and this scares them. However a very poor lower class can be relied on to vote for them. A massive very poor lower class allows the Socialists to successfully promote their Class Warfare agenda. This tactic just doesn't work too well with the Middle Class. The Middle Class just needs to learn the rules of the game and then beat the Socialists at their own game. Just vote them all out of office every chance you get. That will ultimately guarantee the survival of the American Middle Class.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

I know. That's what I stated. Then again, I work for a Japanese company and the highest executive makes about 70x that of our lowest-paid employee. Still doesn't seem fair that the top gets raises and bonuses and those of us doing the actual work get next to nothing for our efforts.

 

[Bern80]

I further wonder how easy is it in Sweden to go from the bottom of that scale to the top of that scale is it is in the US?

You know how when a story is written about a rich person if they made their money on their own a big deal is made out of them being a self made man? The reason for this is in reality it is difficult and rare to do such a thing. That work hard and wealth will come is pretty much a myth, the jobs where I have had to work the hardest paid the least and vice versa.

Of course because you weren't able to achieve it, it must be a myth. The fact people believe it's enough to work hard (which is a really arbitrary term). What people need to understand to really achieve financial independence is that you need to work smarter. When we think of work hard we think of manual labor and long hours. How hard was this job that you worked hard at really? Was it really a mentally taxing position? Did it really challenge you? Did it require a skill set that few have or could learn? Doubtful.

And you seem to be another person who doesn't understand an intuitively obvious difference between the wealthy and middle class. If you thought you were go to become wealthy working hard FOR someone you are a buffoon. The ultra wealthy don't work for people. People work for them.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

If you thought you were go to become wealthy working hard FOR someone you are a buffoon.

Many people get rich working for someone else. CEO's and other top executives work "for" someone and they make millions. They don't own the companies that they head. If they did, they might be more careful with their decisions for the direction of the company and play less golf. Hello AIG and Bear Stearns, Enron and WorldCom

 

[Bern80]

I know. That's what I stated. Then again, I work for a Japanese company and the highest executive makes about 70x that of our lowest-paid employee. Still doesn't seem fair that the top gets raises and bonuses and those of us doing the actual work get next to nothing for our efforts.

That is the reward for taking the risk, building, and being the owner of a company. I repeat. If you think you are going to become wealthy working FOR someone, do yourself a favor and labotomize the part of your brain that contains that ridiculous notion.

And yes I understand that some irresponsible companies a la AIG were giving raises etc. to execs even in the midst of a recesson and not giving raises to lower level employees. All I can tell you is a lesson I was told. The news is not always an accurate reflection of reality. Just because this irresponsible company god blasted by the media does not mean that's the thousands and thousands of buisnesses operate. As I said earlier in the company I work for, everyone had to take a pay cut and upper management actually took a bigger one than we did.

As to you doing all the work and executives none that simply highlight that you don't understand thing one about the responsibilites and myriad decisions that executives and owners need to juggle to keep a business operating.

 

[Bern80]

If you thought you were go to become wealthy working hard FOR someone you are a buffoon.

Many people get rich working for someone else. CEO's and other top executives work "for" someone and they make millions. They don't own the companies that they head. If they did, they might be more careful with their decisions for the direction of the company and play less golf. Hello AIG and Bear Stearns, Enron and WorldCom

I would agree, in part, with that. I don't believe in irresponsible management anymore than you do. The adminstration should have tought them and any other CEO paying more attention to his own pocket than the overall integrity of the company should have either been booted as a condition of receiving bailout money or even better simply let the company figure out on it's own how to become solvent or fail.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

There is currently a War on the Middle Class and it's the Socialists who are waging it. The Middle Class serves no purpose for the Socialists so it would be best to simply eliminate them. The Middle Class confuses the Socialists and seems to only stand in their way. The Middle Class in this country could go either way. They can vote Liberal sometimes and they can vote Conservative sometimes. This bothers the Socialists because they can't control them the way they can with the very poor. Their Class Warfare tactics just don't work as well with the Middle Class. In the end it really would benefit the Socialists to just have a very poor Lower Class vs. a very wealthy Upper Class. There can be no in between.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

As to you doing all the work and executives none that simply highlight that you don't understand thing one about the responsibilites and myriad decisions that executives and owners need to juggle to keep a business operating.

I get the quotes, create the orders, invoice, track the shipments, work with customs to clear those shipments, plead with truckers and terminals to get our customers their order by their "require by" date, deal with problems, shortages, damages and make sure that the customers get exactly what they ordered on time. Oh, and since accounting has decided to dump all of their duties as well on us as to not be accountable for "audit mistakes", we get to be collections too and do our own reconciliations. Yeah, I don't deserve anything like a cost of living increase or (god forbid!) a bonus. I had no hand in making money for this outfit, did I? Silly me...You're right. Might as well just smile as I go under water.

 

[noose4]

I further wonder how easy is it in Sweden to go from the bottom of that scale to the top of that scale is it is in the US?

You know how when a story is written about a rich person if they made their money on their own a big deal is made out of them being a self made man? The reason for this is in reality it is difficult and rare to do such a thing. That work hard and wealth will come is pretty much a myth, the jobs where I have had to work the hardest paid the least and vice versa.

Of course because you weren't able to achieve it, it must be a myth. The fact people believe it's enough to work hard (which is a really arbitrary term). What people need to understand to really achieve financial independence is that you need to work smarter. When we think of work hard we think of manual labor and long hours. How hard was this job that you worked hard at really? Was it really a mentally taxing position? Did it really challenge you? Did it require a skill set that few have or could learn? Doubtful.

And you seem to be another person who doesn't understand an intuitively obvious difference between the wealthy and middle class. If you thought you were go to become wealthy working hard FOR someone you are a buffoon. The ultra wealthy don't work for people. People work for them.

Gee now everybody should go off and start their own business because that would realistically work.

 

[Zander]

You know how when a story is written about a rich person if they made their money on their own a big deal is made out of them being a self made man? The reason for this is in reality it is difficult and rare to do such a thing. That work hard and wealth will come is pretty much a myth, the jobs where I have had to work the hardest paid the least and vice versa.

Of course because you weren't able to achieve it, it must be a myth. The fact people believe it's enough to work hard (which is a really arbitrary term). What people need to understand to really achieve financial independence is that you need to work smarter. When we think of work hard we think of manual labor and long hours. How hard was this job that you worked hard at really? Was it really a mentally taxing position? Did it really challenge you? Did it require a skill set that few have or could learn? Doubtful.

And you seem to be another person who doesn't understand an intuitively obvious difference between the wealthy and middle class. If you thought you were go to become wealthy working hard FOR someone you are a buffoon. The ultra wealthy don't work for people. People work for them.

Gee now everybody should go off and start their own business because that would realistically work.

No, it's better to remain a wage slave instead!!!

 

[Bern80]

As to you doing all the work and executives none that simply highlight that you don't understand thing one about the responsibilites and myriad decisions that executives and owners need to juggle to keep a business operating.

I get the quotes, create the orders, invoice, track the shipments, work with customs to clear those shipments, plead with truckers and terminals to get our customers their order by their "require by" date, deal with problems, shortages, damages and make sure that the customers get exactly what they ordered on time. Oh, and since accounting has decided to dump all of their duties as well on us as to not be accountable for "audit mistakes", we get to be collections too and do our own reconciliations. Yeah, I don't deserve anything like a cost of living increase or (god forbid!) a bonus. I had no hand in making money for this outfit, did I? Silly me...You're right. Might as well just smile as I go under water.

Why do people quote specific parts of people's posts and then talk about something else entirely. YOU made the statement that YOU do all the work, clearly you have responsibilities, and YOU also assume the the executives basically do nothing.

The problem is you have never put yourself in an owners shoes. You've never looked at things from their prespective. Pretend you own and operate a business for one second. Your business consists of you and your one employee that you need to operate the business. Now pretend your one employee says he wants a raise. You and said employee at some point agreed you would pay him x amount to do some job. So naturally you ask said employee 'Why are you asking me for a raise'? He says to you 'because I need a cost of living adjustment'. Let that sink in for a minute. You are the primary investor in your business, you cover all the expenses of operating your business essentially out of your own pocket. You can't exactly afford to be throwing money around for no good reason. Yet here you have your employee asking you to incur additional expenses at zero benefit to you or the business.

It's just a concept you don't grasp I guess. If you have incured more responsibilities without be duely compensated that's one thing. But to cite your bills or a cost of living adjustment and actually have the balls to tell your employer that is why you need a raise is asanine. Your employer or any employer enters a contract with you when you are hired that essentially states we will pay you this do do this. When you agreed to be hired you agreed to those terms. There is NOTHING in that contract that says part of this agreement is for your employer to essentailly pay for your shit regardless of what you do or don't do.

 

[manu1959]

As to you doing all the work and executives none that simply highlight that you don't understand thing one about the responsibilites and myriad decisions that executives and owners need to juggle to keep a business operating.

I get the quotes, create the orders, invoice, track the shipments, work with customs to clear those shipments, plead with truckers and terminals to get our customers their order by their "require by" date, deal with problems, shortages, damages and make sure that the customers get exactly what they ordered on time. Oh, and since accounting has decided to dump all of their duties as well on us as to not be accountable for "audit mistakes", we get to be collections too and do our own reconciliations. Yeah, I don't deserve anything like a cost of living increase or (god forbid!) a bonus. I had no hand in making money for this outfit, did I? Silly me...You're right. Might as well just smile as I go under water.

you should quit....start your own business and treat your staff the way you would like to be treated....you are clearly way smarter than your boss and should be able to put them out of business in short order....

 

[Big Fitz]

If you thought you were go to become wealthy working hard FOR someone you are a buffoon.

Many people get rich working for someone else. CEO's and other top executives work "for" someone and they make millions. They don't own the companies that they head. If they did, they might be more careful with their decisions for the direction of the company and play less golf. Hello AIG and Bear Stearns, Enron and WorldCom

He's referring to "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" thinking. Entrepreneurs succeed the quickest usually. BUT, they also have the higher failure rate. Like all things in business, skill and hard work matter probably the most, but regardless of how much you put in that, without timing, luck and networking... you're probably toast.

 

[Big Fitz]

There is currently a War on the Middle Class and it's the Socialists who are waging it. The Middle Class serves no purpose for the Socialists so it would be best to simply eliminate them. The Middle Class confuses the Socialists and seems to only stand in their way. The Middle Class in this country could go either way. They can vote Liberal sometimes and they can vote Conservative sometimes. This bothers the Socialists because they can't control them the way they can with the very poor. Their Class Warfare tactics just don't work as well with the Middle Class. In the end it really would benefit the Socialists to just have a very poor Lower Class vs. a very wealthy Upper Class. There can be no in between.

In capitalism, the Middle Class more often shrinks because they achieve and become wealthy. Also, not everyone tends to remain poor in this nation and it's only episodic except in cases where there are other mitigating factors.

What's the social mobility in Sweden? Open? Caste? Semi-Caste?

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Why do people quote specific parts of people's posts and then talk about something else entirely. YOU made the statement that YOU do all the work, clearly you have responsibilities, and YOU also assume the the executives basically do nothing.

The problem is you have never put yourself in an owners shoes. You've never looked at things from their prespective. Pretend you own and operate a business for one second. Your business consists of you and your one employee that you need to operate the business. Now pretend your one employee says he wants a raise. You and said employee at some point agreed you would pay him x amount to do some job. So naturally you ask said employee 'Why are you asking me for a raise'? He says to you 'because I need a cost of living adjustment'. Let that sink in for a minute. You are the primary investor in your business, you cover all the expenses of operating your business essentially out of your own pocket. You can't exactly afford to be throwing money around for no good reason. Yet here you have your employee asking you to incur additional expenses at zero benefit to you or the business.

It's just a concept you don't grasp I guess. If you have incured more responsibilities without be duely compensated that's one thing. But to cite your bills or a cost of living adjustment and actually have the balls to tell your employer that is why you need a raise is asanine. Your employer or any employer enters a contract with you when you are hired that essentially states we will pay you this do do this. When you agreed to be hired you agreed to those terms. There is NOTHING in that contract that says part of this agreement is for your employer to essentailly pay for your shit regardless of what you do or don't do.

YOU are not getting it. My boss' boss sits back and reads the paper all day and goes to meetings. I do all the dirty work. He is not the owner. The "owner" is in Japan. Why does my boss deserve a raise and a bonus but those under him doing the actual dirty work do not? I am not referring to people who OWN their own business, and never have I in all these posts. Good god... can you comprehend anything you read???