Cruz: Abolish The IRS...

[Skylar]

I said that all he did was suggest we abolish the IRS and institute a flatter and fairer tax code.

And you insisted I was wrong in my conclusion that such a tax code would cost the rich less and the middle class and poor more. Yet when I ask you to demonstrate this using Cruz's tax proposal....

......I get excuses. You clearly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

But he did not say what the flat tax should be...

How then could I be wrong in my assessment....if he has said what the flat tax should be? Its remarkably simple: either you have the numbers to back up the claim that I'm wrong. Or you don't. And as your dodging and excuses demonstrate, you don't.

And of course, you're wrong. Cruz has gotten very specific. Here's the flat tax overhaul that Cruz co-sponsored.

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Now you don't have to pull numbers out of your ass anymore. So demonstrate to us using Cruz's proposal that I'm wrong. Or....you could just keep giving us more excuses.

So without knowing what the flat tax is, you can not simply assume it will favor the rich.

Without knowing the flat tax is, you cannot simply assume I'm wrong. See how that works?

So as I said....you made a comment that is impossible to make without knowing the rate.

Actually, no. You said I was wrong in my assessment. That's starkly different than 'a comment that is impossible to make without knowing the rate'.

If I'm wrong, then show me. Don't tell me. Not from numbers you've pulled out of your ass. But from Cruz's own flat tax proposal, submitted in the Senate, of which he was a co-sponsor.

And if you can't possibly back up your claim, you'll give us more excuses why you can't. Gee, I wonder which its gonna be.

 

[The Rabbi]

There is no "Cruz proposal" other than eliminating the IRS. There is no plan he proposed in detail. How did you miss that?

There's a tad more to Cruz's proposal, which reading the OP rather than just the thread title would clue you into:

“We need to pass fundamental tax reform making our tax code simpler, flatter, fairer,” he said Monday at Heritage Action’s 2015 conservative policy summit. ”And I’ll tell you, the single most important tax reform, we should abolish the IRS.”

Post 1
Cruz Abolish The IRS... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Notice that 'flatter, simpler, fairer' part? If you want to watch it, its right here at around the 26 or 27 minute mark:

Senator Ted Cruz R-TX Remarks Conservative Video C-SPAN.org

Oh, and if you want details, here's the tax bill that Cruz co-sponsored on exactly this issue:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Any tax reform will prbably benefit high income earners because they pay over 100% of income taxes. Who else is going to benefit?

100% tax rates, huh? Who are these people?

Of course it is not "100% tax rates." You are too stupid to figure out what I actually wrote.
I've posted this many times and of course you ignore it.
CBO Top 40 Paid 106.2 of Income Taxes Bottom 40 Paid -9.1 Got Average of 18 950 in Transfers CNS News

Can I take it then that you recognize Cruz's proposal included a flat tax? A flat tax he's cosponsored legislation in support of?

There is no "Cruz' proposal." He mentioned a policy he's in favor of, and has been.
Your problem seems to be an inability to read and understand what's written.

 

[Jarhead]

I said that all he did was suggest we abolish the IRS and institute a flatter and fairer tax code.

And you insisted I was wrong in my conclusion that such a tax code would cost the rich less and the middle class and poor more. Yet when I ask you to demonstrate this using Cruz's tax proposal....

......I get excuses. You clearly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

But he did not say what the flat tax should be...

How then could I be wrong in my assessment....if he has said what the flat tax should be? Its remarkably simple: either you have the numbers to back up the claim that I'm wrong. Or you don't. And as your dodging and excuses demonstrate, you don't.

And of course, you're wrong. Cruz has gotten very specific. Here's the flat tax overhaul that Cruz co-sponsored.

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Now you don't have to pull numbers out of your ass anymore. So demonstrate to us using Cruz's proposal that I'm wrong. Or....you could just keep giving us more excuses.

So without knowing what the flat tax is, you can not simply assume it will favor the rich.

Without knowing the flat tax is, you cannot simply assume I'm wrong. See how that works?

So as I said....you made a comment that is impossible to make without knowing the rate.

Actually, no. You said I was wrong in my assessment. That's starkly different than 'a comment that is impossible to make without knowing the rate'.

If I'm wrong, then show me. Don't tell me. Not from numbers you've pulled out of your ass. But from Cruz's own flat tax proposal, submitted in the Senate, of which he was a co-sponsor.

And if you can't possibly back up your claim, you'll give us more excuses why you can't. Gee, I wonder which its gonna be.

Bullshit. I told you that you can not make that assumption without knowing what the rate was.

Listen child...I am done with you. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I feel silly even corresponding with you. Its like I am trying to debate a 5 year old.......
I kind of pity you.

Cya sparky.

 

[haissem123]

Every citizen in the country should get behind this, I don't care if you're left, right, sideways or upside down.

We need to start CUTTING this over bloated Government down to size, they are becoming so big they now believe they are, OUR MASTERS.

and when they are done with the IRS, they can go after the EPA, NEA, etc etc or at least start putting a LEASH on them

yeah, it's big government taxing us not big corporations raping us strickly in the name of business and profits. Them dam regulators not stopping anyone from polluting anything or cleaning up after they do ain't good for nothing any how. Them damn bankers robbing our 401ks or just using them to gamble for themselves. Get rid of them. Those toll authorities not using the money to fix a dam or a damn thing, get rid of them too. Those governors reps etc.. selling us out to big oil, gas or building/unions, get rid of all them people. Those judges and lawyers using the law for ill gotten gains of all sorts, get rid of them good fir nothings. Those public tit milking free range ranchers never pay us for the land our government seized for itself, get rid of them... those celebrities getn rich poisoning us all with their vain side show freaks show get rid of them too. Those drug companies raking in millions keeping old worthless people alive, for what? get rid of them all. lol. this is fun. lol

 

[Skylar]

So we'd have to report *every* fucking purchase to the government throughout the year in order to get our refund?

Nope. The Fair Tax gives you a set rebate every month, dependent only on the number of people in your household. It has nothing to do with how much you spent.

So your income is irrelevant to the rebate? How then would you not be taxed on the first $23,000 of your yearly income? And what if the cost of living is higher in one area than it is in another. The IRS totally takes local cost of living into account.

But in the 'fair tax', everyone is assumed to have the exact same costs? Or just gets the same rebate no matter what they're actually paying or how much their expenses are?

 

[The Rabbi]

So we'd have to report *every* fucking purchase to the government throughout the year in order to get our refund?

Nope. The Fair Tax gives you a set rebate every month, dependent only on the number of people in your household. It has nothing to do with how much you spent.

And everyone gets the same amount. It is not dependent on income. So a poor person gets the same rebate as a rich person.

And everyone pays their taxes. Drug dealers, prostitutes, illegals, cash workers all pay taxes.

actually, a consumption tax would make exactly that happen...unless they bought on the black market......but there is no hiding of income. Does not matter if you declare income or not. You buy something? You pay 23% tax on it.
Yes, it will increase the issues with black markets.......but that is something that can be tackled with the money we save by eliminating the IRS.

I t will encourage retail tax cheating. And necessitate an aggressive enforcement regime. Which is why I tend to oppose the Fair Tax.

 

[Jarhead]

There is no "Cruz proposal" other than eliminating the IRS. There is no plan he proposed in detail. How did you miss that?

There's a tad more to Cruz's proposal, which reading the OP rather than just the thread title would clue you into:

“We need to pass fundamental tax reform making our tax code simpler, flatter, fairer,” he said Monday at Heritage Action’s 2015 conservative policy summit. ”And I’ll tell you, the single most important tax reform, we should abolish the IRS.”

Post 1
Cruz Abolish The IRS... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Notice that 'flatter, simpler, fairer' part? If you want to watch it, its right here at around the 26 or 27 minute mark:

Senator Ted Cruz R-TX Remarks Conservative Video C-SPAN.org

Oh, and if you want details, here's the tax bill that Cruz co-sponsored on exactly this issue:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Any tax reform will prbably benefit high income earners because they pay over 100% of income taxes. Who else is going to benefit?

100% tax rates, huh? Who are these people?

Of course it is not "100% tax rates." You are too stupid to figure out what I actually wrote.
I've posted this many times and of course you ignore it.
CBO Top 40 Paid 106.2 of Income Taxes Bottom 40 Paid -9.1 Got Average of 18 950 in Transfers CNS News

Can I take it then that you recognize Cruz's proposal included a flat tax? A flat tax he's cosponsored legislation in support of?

There is no "Cruz' proposal." He mentioned a policy he's in favor of, and has been.
Your problem seems to be an inability to read and understand what's written.

you noticed that too.....
I don't get Skylar.....either very young....maybe 10th grade....or low IQ and reading comprehension ability. I have shown him/her several times where he/she erred...and all I get in return were insults....almost like he/she did not read my posts.

Whatever.....like Carter loves Obama?.....Billy must love Skylar.

 

[Skylar]

I said that all he did was suggest we abolish the IRS and institute a flatter and fairer tax code.

And you insisted I was wrong in my conclusion that such a tax code would cost the rich less and the middle class and poor more. Yet when I ask you to demonstrate this using Cruz's tax proposal....

......I get excuses. You clearly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

But he did not say what the flat tax should be...

How then could I be wrong in my assessment....if he has said what the flat tax should be? Its remarkably simple: either you have the numbers to back up the claim that I'm wrong. Or you don't. And as your dodging and excuses demonstrate, you don't.

And of course, you're wrong. Cruz has gotten very specific. Here's the flat tax overhaul that Cruz co-sponsored.

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Now you don't have to pull numbers out of your ass anymore. So demonstrate to us using Cruz's proposal that I'm wrong. Or....you could just keep giving us more excuses.

So without knowing what the flat tax is, you can not simply assume it will favor the rich.

Without knowing the flat tax is, you cannot simply assume I'm wrong. See how that works?

So as I said....you made a comment that is impossible to make without knowing the rate.

Actually, no. You said I was wrong in my assessment. That's starkly different than 'a comment that is impossible to make without knowing the rate'.

If I'm wrong, then show me. Don't tell me. Not from numbers you've pulled out of your ass. But from Cruz's own flat tax proposal, submitted in the Senate, of which he was a co-sponsor.

And if you can't possibly back up your claim, you'll give us more excuses why you can't. Gee, I wonder which its gonna be.

Bullshit. I told you that you can not make that assumption without knowing what the rate was.

Listen child...I am done with you. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I feel silly even corresponding with you. Its like I am trying to debate a 5 year old.......
I kind of pity you.

Cya sparky.

Laughing....I handed you Cruz's tax numbers from the very bill he cosponsored, with exacting specifics on what he proposed and why, completely with tax rates summaries, exemptions, the works. And you still can't possibly back up your claims that I was wrong.

If you spent half the time actually backing up your claims as you did whining about me, your posts might have actually amounted to something.

If you ever need another lesson on why the flat tax isn't a particularly good idea for most Americans, I'll be happy to provide it to you. As you're not very good at this.

 

[hadit]

Every citizen in the country should get behind this, I don't care if you're left, right, sideways or upside down.

We need to start CUTTING this over bloated Government down to size, they are becoming so big they now believe they are, OUR MASTERS.

and when they are done with the IRS, they can go after the EPA, NEA, etc etc or at least start putting a LEASH on them

yeah, it's big government taxing us not big corporations raping us strickly in the name of business and profits. Them dam regulators not stopping anyone from polluting anything or cleaning up after they do ain't good for nothing any how. Them damn bankers robbing our 401ks or just using them to gamble for themselves. Get rid of them. Those toll authorities not using the money to fix a dam or a damn thing, get rid of them too. Those governors reps etc.. selling us out to big oil, gas or building/unions, get rid of all them people. Those judges and lawyers using the law for ill gotten gains of all sorts, get rid of them good fir nothings. Those public tit milking free range ranchers never pay us for the land our government seized for itself, get rid of them... those celebrities getn rich poisoning us all with their vain side show freaks show get rid of them too. Those drug companies raking in millions keeping old worthless people alive, for what? get rid of them all. lol. this is fun. lol

All of those things can be done cheaper and more efficiently than the government is doing them today.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Unlike all the rest, I have a simple plan, a straight Income Tax for people and corporations, that while regressive isn't so bad that way. Call it the 10% plan, which is what you pay, no adjustments at all, on the first 100k. Then 20% on the next 100k, and 30% on 300K, up to 50% on 500K. After that the rate stays at 50%, make as much as you like, we won't stop you.

We could even make it 1% per 10K up to 50% if you like. That would give the poor a serious break eh?

 

[Jarhead]

So we'd have to report *every* fucking purchase to the government throughout the year in order to get our refund?

Nope. The Fair Tax gives you a set rebate every month, dependent only on the number of people in your household. It has nothing to do with how much you spent.

So your income is irrelevant to the rebate? How then would you not be taxed on the first $23,000 of your yearly income? And what if the cost of living is higher in one area than it is in another. The IRS totally takes local cost of living into account.

But in the 'fair tax', everyone is assumed to have the exact same costs? Or just gets the same rebate no matter what they're actually paying or how much their expenses are?

uh.....hello?

The IRS doe NOT take into consideration geographical location and cost of living. Not at all. Nothing on ones return takes into consideration their location of residence or location of income earning.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[Skylar]

There is no "Cruz proposal" other than eliminating the IRS. There is no plan he proposed in detail. How did you miss that?

There's a tad more to Cruz's proposal, which reading the OP rather than just the thread title would clue you into:

“We need to pass fundamental tax reform making our tax code simpler, flatter, fairer,” he said Monday at Heritage Action’s 2015 conservative policy summit. ”And I’ll tell you, the single most important tax reform, we should abolish the IRS.”

Post 1
Cruz Abolish The IRS... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Notice that 'flatter, simpler, fairer' part? If you want to watch it, its right here at around the 26 or 27 minute mark:

Senator Ted Cruz R-TX Remarks Conservative Video C-SPAN.org

Oh, and if you want details, here's the tax bill that Cruz co-sponsored on exactly this issue:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Any tax reform will prbably benefit high income earners because they pay over 100% of income taxes. Who else is going to benefit?

100% tax rates, huh? Who are these people?

Of course it is not "100% tax rates." You are too stupid to figure out what I actually wrote.
I've posted this many times and of course you ignore it.
CBO Top 40 Paid 106.2 of Income Taxes Bottom 40 Paid -9.1 Got Average of 18 950 in Transfers CNS News

Can I take it then that you recognize Cruz's proposal included a flat tax? A flat tax he's cosponsored legislation in support of?

There is no "Cruz' proposal." He mentioned a policy he's in favor of, and has been.
Your problem seems to be an inability to read and understand what's written.

Except that there is. He talked about implementing a flat tax. And has co-sponsored a bill outlining the specifics:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Which you poor, willfully ignorant souls refuse to look at or acknowledge exists.

Shrugs.....you can't fix stupid.

 

[Jarhead]

Sorry Skylar...I need to put this in my sig.....I mean....people need to know who they are debating.....

Skylar:
.......And what if the cost of living is higher in one area than it is in another. The IRS totally takes local cost of living into account.

 

[WinterBorn]

So we'd have to report *every* fucking purchase to the government throughout the year in order to get our refund?

Nope. The Fair Tax gives you a set rebate every month, dependent only on the number of people in your household. It has nothing to do with how much you spent.

And everyone gets the same amount. It is not dependent on income. So a poor person gets the same rebate as a rich person.

The prebate – or “annual consumption allowance” – is designed in part to relieve poverty-level Americans by providing a monthly check that would essentially offset all of their sales tax expenditures. The amount of the allowance would be based on poverty-level guidelines and would increase for larger families.

Though the prebate is geared toward poorer families, everyone would receive monthly checks, regardless of income. The prebate brings up yet another point of contention between critics and supporters. It is the most expensive element of the entire plan, would be the largest entitlement program in American history, and would constitute a welfare payment, even for those without a need. In other words, a two-parent billionaire household with two kids would receive the same monthly prebate as a two-parent, two-child household struggling to get by on $20,000 per year.

How is a refund of the taxes I paid in considered an entitlement?

 

[The Rabbi]

There is no "Cruz proposal" other than eliminating the IRS. There is no plan he proposed in detail. How did you miss that?

There's a tad more to Cruz's proposal, which reading the OP rather than just the thread title would clue you into:

“We need to pass fundamental tax reform making our tax code simpler, flatter, fairer,” he said Monday at Heritage Action’s 2015 conservative policy summit. ”And I’ll tell you, the single most important tax reform, we should abolish the IRS.”

Post 1
Cruz Abolish The IRS... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Notice that 'flatter, simpler, fairer' part? If you want to watch it, its right here at around the 26 or 27 minute mark:

Senator Ted Cruz R-TX Remarks Conservative Video C-SPAN.org

Oh, and if you want details, here's the tax bill that Cruz co-sponsored on exactly this issue:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Any tax reform will prbably benefit high income earners because they pay over 100% of income taxes. Who else is going to benefit?

100% tax rates, huh? Who are these people?

Of course it is not "100% tax rates." You are too stupid to figure out what I actually wrote.
I've posted this many times and of course you ignore it.
CBO Top 40 Paid 106.2 of Income Taxes Bottom 40 Paid -9.1 Got Average of 18 950 in Transfers CNS News

Can I take it then that you recognize Cruz's proposal included a flat tax? A flat tax he's cosponsored legislation in support of?

There is no "Cruz' proposal." He mentioned a policy he's in favor of, and has been.
Your problem seems to be an inability to read and understand what's written.

Except that there is. He talked about implementing a flat tax. And has co-sponsored a bill outlining the specifics:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Which you poor, willfully ignorant souls refuse to look at or acknowledge exists.

Shrugs.....you can't fix stupid.

Which was 2 years ago and not really germane here because he hast indicated if he will push the same details or not.
Which part of that is unclear to you? Hell you cant tell a flat tax from a fair tax. Jarhead is right.

 

[Skylar]

Sorry Skylar...I need to put this in my sig.....I mean....people need to know who they are debating.....

Skylar:
.......And what if the cost of living is higher in one area than it is in another. The IRS totally takes local cost of living into account.

When you're dealing with back tax debt, local cost of living is taken into account in determining what you owe.

 

[Jarhead]

There is no "Cruz proposal" other than eliminating the IRS. There is no plan he proposed in detail. How did you miss that?

There's a tad more to Cruz's proposal, which reading the OP rather than just the thread title would clue you into:

“We need to pass fundamental tax reform making our tax code simpler, flatter, fairer,” he said Monday at Heritage Action’s 2015 conservative policy summit. ”And I’ll tell you, the single most important tax reform, we should abolish the IRS.”

Post 1
Cruz Abolish The IRS... US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Notice that 'flatter, simpler, fairer' part? If you want to watch it, its right here at around the 26 or 27 minute mark:

Senator Ted Cruz R-TX Remarks Conservative Video C-SPAN.org

Oh, and if you want details, here's the tax bill that Cruz co-sponsored on exactly this issue:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Any tax reform will prbably benefit high income earners because they pay over 100% of income taxes. Who else is going to benefit?

100% tax rates, huh? Who are these people?

Of course it is not "100% tax rates." You are too stupid to figure out what I actually wrote.
I've posted this many times and of course you ignore it.
CBO Top 40 Paid 106.2 of Income Taxes Bottom 40 Paid -9.1 Got Average of 18 950 in Transfers CNS News

Can I take it then that you recognize Cruz's proposal included a flat tax? A flat tax he's cosponsored legislation in support of?

There is no "Cruz' proposal." He mentioned a policy he's in favor of, and has been.
Your problem seems to be an inability to read and understand what's written.

Except that there is. He talked about implementing a flat tax. And has co-sponsored a bill outlining the specifics:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Which you poor, willfully ignorant souls refuse to look at or acknowledge exists.

Shrugs.....you can't fix stupid.

No Skylar. He cosponsored a bill that would implement a consumption tax....similar to the European VAT tax. The bill proposes a 23% consumption tax (sales tax) and eliminate the income tax.
Pay tax on what you spend....not what you make.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

 

[The Rabbi]

Sorry Skylar...I need to put this in my sig.....I mean....people need to know who they are debating.....

Skylar:
.......And what if the cost of living is higher in one area than it is in another. The IRS totally takes local cost of living into account.

When you're dealing with back tax debt, local cost of living is taken into account in determining what you owe.

That isn't "totally". Hell that's probably not even true.

 

[The Rabbi]

There's a tad more to Cruz's proposal, which reading the OP rather than just the thread title would clue you into:

Notice that 'flatter, simpler, fairer' part? If you want to watch it, its right here at around the 26 or 27 minute mark:

Senator Ted Cruz R-TX Remarks Conservative Video C-SPAN.org

Oh, and if you want details, here's the tax bill that Cruz co-sponsored on exactly this issue:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

100% tax rates, huh? Who are these people?

Of course it is not "100% tax rates." You are too stupid to figure out what I actually wrote.
I've posted this many times and of course you ignore it.
CBO Top 40 Paid 106.2 of Income Taxes Bottom 40 Paid -9.1 Got Average of 18 950 in Transfers CNS News

Can I take it then that you recognize Cruz's proposal included a flat tax? A flat tax he's cosponsored legislation in support of?

There is no "Cruz' proposal." He mentioned a policy he's in favor of, and has been.
Your problem seems to be an inability to read and understand what's written.

Except that there is. He talked about implementing a flat tax. And has co-sponsored a bill outlining the specifics:

S.122 - 113th Congress 2013-2014 Fair Tax Act of 2013 Congress.gov Library of Congress

Which you poor, willfully ignorant souls refuse to look at or acknowledge exists.

Shrugs.....you can't fix stupid.

No Skylar. He cosponsored a bill that would implement a consumption tax....similar to the European VAT tax. The bill proposes a 23% consumption tax (sales tax) and eliminate the income tax.
Pay tax on what you spend....not what you make.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

Skylar cannot read and understand simple sentences. Unfortunaytely that is the norm esp among libs here.

 

[Skylar]

Which was 2 years ago and not really germane here because he hast indicated if he will push the same details or not.
Which part of that is unclear to you? Hell you cant tell a flat tax from a fair tax. Jarhead is right.

So is there any indication from Cruz that his flat tax proposal has changed since co-sponsoring that bill on the flat tax two years ago? If so, show me, don't tell me.

Unless you have something better, that stands as the best source available on Cruz's position.

Or in yet another spasm of desperate, willful ignorance, are you going to ignore Cruz's own proposal, his own numbers, his own tax rates, his own exemptions from the very bill HE cosponsored........and insist that Cruz's proposal on the flat tax is 'unknowable'?

You guys are raising willful ignorance to an art form here.