Could this be true?

[GotZoom]

In a previous post you stated:

.....and you think 3,000 people will change the world forever

Then you speak of your friend who died in the attacks and his wife and two children.

I would say that their world has been changed forever.

 

[Diuretic]

In a previous post you stated:



Then you speak of your friend who died in the attacks and his wife and two children.

I would say that their world has been changed forever.

As would anyone who lost someone in a car accident.
Death of a loved one, regardless of circumstance, does that.

 

[GotZoom]

As would anyone who lost someone in a car accident.
Death of a loved one, regardless of circumstance, does that.

I don't see too many people trivializing that car accident by comparing it to a hurricane.

The point is..he says 3000 people died; big deal. Those 3000 people won't change the world.

Neither will the person who died in the car accident, or died of cancer, or walked in front of the city bus and died.

A statement like that, "...won't change the world" is very disrespectful to anyone who has ever lost a loved one, in any situation.

I only hope he doesn't actually say that to someone. "I"m sorry for your loss, but buck up, friend. After all, he/she won't change the world."

 

[Diuretic]

Okay - we're heading to an absurdly reductionist argument here.

I have no clever rebuttal. I merely ask a re-think.

I've made my point. I could probably work up a snappy rejoinder but I'm wondering why I'd bother.

Just think for yourself.

 

[Abbey Normal]

...
As I stated I lost a very dear friend on Spetember 11th...he left behind a wife and 2 beautiful girls...She has had a very rough time living her life again but realizes he would want her to thrive...When the politicians use the event for strictly politics it make her sick...she feels they are USING the tragedy...
I wonder if any of you know this feeling...Having the death of your loved one thrown at you whenever it suits a political purpose...
...

Funny, it sounds like you are describing Cindy Sheehan's M. O.

 

[GotZoom]

Okay - we're heading to an absurdly reductionist argument here.

I have no clever rebuttal. I merely ask a re-think.

I've made my point. I could probably work up a snappy rejoinder but I'm wondering why I'd bother.

Just think for yourself.

How are we heading into that? He reduced the deaths to a "big whoop." He said Katrina was worse. He said the people who died wouldn't change the world.

I agree...his statements were very absurd.

What am I re-thinking? Because I don't agree with your point, I need to "think for myself" and "re-think?"

Seems I have thought for myself. And it seems like you don't agree with what I think.

Big Whoop. I don't see your disagreement with me as something that would change the world.

 

[Abbey Normal]

That's not a bad thing. Both represent force.

Here's a clue. Go and read - or re-read - George Orwell's "Ninteen Eighty-Four". Read it very carefully. And as you read it think of what America is undergoing right now. Try to keep an open mind on it. Read Orwell's description of Winston Smith's society. As you read it think of the fact that Orwell was a committed British Leftist who had woken up to what was really happening in the USSR under Comrade General Secretary Stalin and how the British Left not only disputed the truth of what Orwell was telling them but which actively demonised him for doing so. Look at Winston Smith's society. Try and do this without partisan politics simmering in your mind. And when you get to the end of it think about Orwell's other popular work, "Animal Farm" and meld the two together. Think of "four legs good, two legs bad" and then meld it with the vision of the pigs looking more and more like humans.

A clear-minded and informed citizenry is a bulwark against tyranny of any sort.

How about an armed one?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I think our intelligence agency SUCKS...I also think the arguement for fighting them there instead of here is a load of bunk too...
Tell me honestly that in the past 5 years we US citizens have not been put under scare tactics?
Every time the wind blew or there was an election we'd raise the terror threat..
How convienient...
I am not afraid of the CIA...FBI...or NSA...I am also not afraid of being attacked by a terrorist..
If it's my time to go ...it's my time to go...and walking around leering at my fellow Americans to make sure thier shoes do not ignite is not on the top of my list of things to do...
Now to Jillian...
Katrina was worse in my opinion simply because you still have thousands of people displaced...without a home..without a job...This is 9 months after this disaster...and it did not only affect Louisianna...it hit Mississippi too...and parts of Alabama if I am not mistaken (then again I could be cause I live in the midwest and do not have first hand knowledge of the hurricane) .
Like I said thousands of our fellow Americans have become homeless...jobless and lost...somewhat forgotten IMO...
This was not 3,000 people...more like hundreds of thousands were affected...
Which if you are strictly looking at the numbers is staggering...
Like I said before..I wonder if there are any posters here on USMB that got displaced because of the hurricane...lost everything...How they feel about thier situation...
As I stated I lost a very dear friend on Spetember 11th...he left behind a wife and 2 beautiful girls...She has had a very rough time living her life again but realizes he would want her to thrive...When the politicians use the event for strictly politics it make her sick...she feels they are USING the tragedy...
I wonder if any of you know this feeling...Having the death of your loved one thrown at you whenever it suits a political purpose...
We use September 11th for everything... I am just tired of it is all...and you would think a lot more people would be too...
Learn from it...remember it...but do not carry it around as a crutch to excuse certain behavior...then you see...the terrorsits do WIN...we let them know daily how much they have won by showing them the type of power they gained over us because of 1 day in history...Remember yes...but stop using it for political purposes...

Your brain is a conflated mass of senseless mush.

We shouldn't fight the war on terror because of Katrina, or something?

Fighting it there instead of here is a load of bunk? WHy? It's proven terrorist elements from around the globe are resident in Iraq fighting the americans. If you don't think this effort weakens their progress in american homeland attacks, you're mistaken.

 

[Diuretic]

Your brain is a conflated mass of senseless mush.

We shouldn't fight the war on terror because of Katrina, or something?

Fighting it there instead of here is a load of bunk? WHy? It's proven terrorist elements from around the globe are resident in Iraq fighting the americans. If you don't think this effort weakens their progress in american homeland attacks, you're mistaken.

Keep sucking the Kool Aid.

All is going well. All is going well. All is going well.

 

[P&CA admin]

I find it very interesting that terrorism is something we fight on foreign shores...
It's us against them...but we do NOT KNOW...who they are..so we suspect everyone?
How come NO one has said anything about our home grown terrorsts? Tim McVeigh? He helped kill how many Americans? It appears those deaths mean nothing...I am the one trivializing the WTC attack by saying the loss of those lives will not change the world...well Okalohma didn't change us forever apparently ... an attack on America by Americans...but we better watchout for all the towel heads...not those apple pie eating types... :talk2:
It's better to use the tradgedy day after day as an excuse for moving away from our fore fathers and how they pictured our country...
As to the Cindy Sheehan comment...I agree..I am NO big fan of hers...thing is she could have done much more with all the attention she got...instead she let the far left give her words to speak and she did...which was not a very smart move...
BTW...I am NOT a HE...I am a she...and you can add devil to the end of that as well...
I am just giving my opinion folks...nothing I say will change the world either...
One more note...I have sent the link to the forum to my girlfriend who lost her husband...I hope she registers and speaks her piece..how she feels about my comments...I have nothing to hide ..and I have always been straight forward with her ...I highly doubt she'd be surprised...Yeah...I'm a callouse bitch...but I admit it!

 

[Hobbit]

Which is a pity...I loved the old America..
I just wish we'd stop using September 11th as a blanket excuse for forgetting our countries history...How hard the originators...the founding fathers worked to make this such a wonderful country...
We've had horrible things in our past...Pearl Harbor...the great quake of 1916...Katrina...and IMO Katrina was worse then planes hitting buildings...
We failed our fellow countrymen...Maybe if we had some of those guardsmen that are in Iraq helping our own people on our own soil....maybe we might not have looked like complete failures across the globe..
I do love my country even though some would view my opinion as "Liberal"...because I do not agree with the war in Iraq...never have...I believe we should have been taking care of our own..making sure we are prepared for NATURAL disasters instead of keeping an eye out for the boogey man..
BTW....September 11th did not just affect America...another thing we tend not to pay attention to...it happened on our soil but weren't there like 200 other countries impacted on that day? Visitors to NYC ...travellers to the Capital?Yet, we say everything changed on that day..
To be honest the biggest change I have seen is in my fellow Americans...Fearing thier own shadows..and that is so very sad...
Sorry...went off into my own thoughts there..
I just really dislike September 11th being the excuse for everything

And I wish people would stop trying to sweep 9/11 under the rug and try to make people forget that THERE ARE BAD MEN OUT THERE WHO WANT TO KILL ALL OF US!!! And if, by 'the old America,' you meant the America under Clinton, then good riddance. Under Clinton, we were soft and weak. Whenever we were struck, we made a token gesture of resolution to make people think we were actually doing something, then we buried our heads in the sand. When Clinton ordered a pullout from Somalia after Mogadishu, he told the world that we were a paper tiger, that our bark was worse than our bite, and now we're fighting back.

Oh, but you don't like that, do you? You think the cost is too great? You think violence is never the answer? Will you still think that when president...let's call him 'Tom'...of Iran has Israel blown off the face of the planet just because it happens to be Israel? Will you still be talking about how wrong it is to go to war when you're wetting yourself because some towelhead has a dull blade at your throat while you watch everything you ever loved go up in a mushroom cloud? Life is violence. The world is an inherantly violent place. To survive in this world, one must be willing to commit violence or have someone commit violence on his behalf. To deny this basic fact is to invite tragedy and death. I mean, just look how far peaceful, non-violent activities got that beheaded human rights worker, or the people of Darfur.

Pearl Harbor was nothing like 9/11. If the WTC had been a military base or Pearl Harbor a civilian marina, then maybe, but at Pearl Harbor, the Japanese flew in their own military planes and attacked a military target. On 9/11, almost all of the dead were innocent civilians going about their daily lives and the terrorists used captured civilian aircraft. The others you listed were natural disasters. There is no prevention of those, only preparation. However, we know who the terrorists are, how to find more, and how to kill them. It is then not just our right as a nation, but our duty to ourselves and our children, to go out and stop these violent bastards.

If by 'the Old America,' you meant the one that fought WWII, then yeah, I want that generation back. If they were running the country now like they did then, President Tom would be on trial and we wouldn't have a bunch of squeemish pussies telling us that it's wrong to monitor international phone calls to Al-Qaida operatives.

 

[jillian]

And I wish people would stop trying to sweep 9/11 under the rug and try to make people forget that THERE ARE BAD MEN OUT THERE WHO WANT TO KILL ALL OF US!!! And if, by 'the old America,' you meant the America under Clinton, then good riddance. Under Clinton, we were soft and weak. Whenever we were struck, we made a token gesture of resolution to make people think we were actually doing something, then we buried our heads in the sand. When Clinton ordered a pullout from Somalia after Mogadishu, he told the world that we were a paper tiger, that our bark was worse than our bite, and now we're fighting back.

Oh, but you don't like that, do you? You think the cost is too great? You think violence is never the answer? Will you still think that when president...let's call him 'Tom'...of Iran has Israel blown off the face of the planet just because it happens to be Israel? Will you still be talking about how wrong it is to go to war when you're wetting yourself because some towelhead has a dull blade at your throat while you watch everything you ever loved go up in a mushroom cloud? Life is violence. The world is an inherantly violent place. To survive in this world, one must be willing to commit violence or have someone commit violence on his behalf. To deny this basic fact is to invite tragedy and death. I mean, just look how far peaceful, non-violent activities got that beheaded human rights worker, or the people of Darfur.

Pearl Harbor was nothing like 9/11. If the WTC had been a military base or Pearl Harbor a civilian marina, then maybe, but at Pearl Harbor, the Japanese flew in their own military planes and attacked a military target. On 9/11, almost all of the dead were innocent civilians going about their daily lives and the terrorists used captured civilian aircraft. The others you listed were natural disasters. There is no prevention of those, only preparation. However, we know who the terrorists are, how to find more, and how to kill them. It is then not just our right as a nation, but our duty to ourselves and our children, to go out and stop these violent bastards.

If by 'the Old America,' you meant the one that fought WWII, then yeah, I want that generation back. If they were running the country now like they did then, President Tom would be on trial and we wouldn't have a bunch of squeemish pussies telling us that it's wrong to monitor international phone calls to Al-Qaida operatives.

Actually, under Bush we were struck...and HARD. But his people didn't want to be briefed on Bin Laden. They wanted to be briefed on Iraq.

Under Clinton, they thwarted the Millennium Plot. Bush ignored a memo saying Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside the U.S. only one month before we were struck. All he had to do was ask questions. His FBI folk had the info. He was disengaged. So no question that Bill made mistakes, but Bush made a lot as well.

I supported our entry into Afghanistan. It was the right thing to do. Then Bush let Bin Laden go at Tora Bora....and went into Iraq which wasn't the country that attacked us.

I agree with you that Pearl Harbor can't be compared to the WTC, though.

 

[dilloduck]

Actually, under Bush we were struck...and HARD. But his people didn't want to be briefed on Bin Laden. They wanted to be briefed on Iraq.

Under Clinton, they thwarted the Millennium Plot. Bush ignored a memo saying Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside the U.S. only one month before we were struck. All he had to do was ask questions. His FBI folk had the info. He was disengaged. So no question that Bill made mistakes, but Bush made a lot as well.

I supported our entry into Afghanistan. It was the right thing to do. Then Bush let Bin Laden go at Tora Bora....and went into Iraq which wasn't the country that attacked us.

I agree with you that Pearl Harbor can't be compared to the WTC, though.

We we not attacked by a country and the attackers were not from Afghanistan. Why did you support our invasion there?

 

[jillian]

We we not attacked by a country and the attackers were not from Afghanistan. Why did you support our invasion there?

Because the Taliban was letting them train there and wouldn't turn over Bin Laden. They were warned and we were entitled to get Bin Laden and drag his scrawny butt back here.

Funny...not what I thought you'd focus on.

 

[dilloduck]

Because the Taliban was letting them train there and wouldn't turn over Bin Laden. They were warned and we were entitled to get Bin Laden and drag his scrawny butt back here.

Funny...not what I thought you'd focus on.

No doubt--because the heart of the anti-war machine is to say that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or al-quaeda. We are not at war with a country.

 

[jillian]

No doubt--because the heart of the anti-war machine is to say that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or al-quaeda. We are not at war with a country.

But Iraq wasn't a jihadi State, either....(and now doesn't count because they only started using Iraq as their training ground after Baghdad fell).

 

[dilloduck]

But Iraq wasn't a jihadi State, either....(and now doesn't count because they only started using Iraq as their training ground after Baghdad fell).

Must be tough to train insurgents there now !

 

[Diuretic]

AQ's attack was on potent symbols of America but they weren't an attack intended to destroy America. Even a nutter like bin Laden knows that isn't possible short of an all-out nuclear war, which AQ is not able to carry out.

If AQ wanted to destroy America, as has been claimed in this thread, they would have followed up in the confusion after 9/11. To the best of my knowledge there have been no further attacks on America. Now we can argue to a standstill that this was either because AQ intended not to follow up after the atrocities on 9/11 or that US home security is so good that it stopped every single attempt by AQ to do so. Take your pick. I'm going for the former.

9/11 was an attack on what America represented. bin Laden is a Saudi. Saudi Arabia is the spiritual home of Islam. Saudi Arabia is also a private country, the property of the house of Saud. It is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship, at best an oligarchy. It is supported by the West, the West that bin Laden hates because there are Western - probably mostly American I think - interests in Saudi Arabia and he sees them and the Saud family as corrupting the purity of Islam. He's a religious nutter, he wants all Infidels out of the place where Islam was born. He delivered a shocking blow to American confidence, not to destroy America (he would have liked that of course but he knows it's simply not possible) but to get America and her allies out of Saudi Arabia so he and his mob could then depose the House of Saud and turn Arabia back to a pure Islamic state uncorrupted by the Saudis who on the face of it look like good Muslims but can be found in the fleshpots of the West living it up in a very un-Islamic fashion.

bin Laden would have been shocked and stunned by the invasion of Afghanistan where he thought he would be safe under the Taliban. He would have been delighted by the ill-thought out incursion into Iraq because he knows that fighting on two fronts is not wise. If Bush went into Iraq to secure its oil reserves to enable the US to leave Saudi Arabia and therefore cease to be come the focus of AQ then that makes a sort of sense to me, problem is it wasn't done properly.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Roomy, a little thing we call 9/11 happened, and everything changed. In many ways, we're not the same America.

Had the Administration done the right thing after 9/11, things could have changed for the better. Instead, the Bush Cabal chose to pursue their own interests rahter than America's, they pissed away every last drop of good will and sympathy generated in the aftermath of 9/11 and our children, for generations to come, will be paying the price in treasure and blood.

 

[Gunny]

I don't drink kool aid...I stated my opinion...you disagree...which is your right...but when do we stop making excuses for acting like chicken little?
How long can you use september 11th as an excuse for why our country is so afraid of everything?
Terrorists...have YOU forgotten Oklahoma city? There were people killed there too...by fellow Americans...but that's ok...we should forget about that eh?
We lost more American lives in Pearl Harbor...We still haven't been able to help those who lost everything from Katrina...and you think 3,000 people will change the world forever?Apparently being bombed by the Japanese didn't do that...why should WE give that kind of power to terrorists...why should we let them scare us from being ourselves?
When do you say enough is enough and I'm not gonna take it any more...why would you let fear of what "might" happen control your life...if you do that then the terrorists WIN...they have you running scared...I am NOT scared..I live in a big ass city which was probably a target ...but I am not going to lock myself in and give some bastard that kind of power over my life...if you want to by all means...but September 11th was a freak success for them...
How can you not think that what happened before...during and after Katrina not being a horrible disaster...it doesn't matter that mother nature caused it..it showed not only the American people how uunprepared we are/were
it also showed the rest of the world...for weeks they showed people stranded and some still have no place to go...We send our guardsmen to another country to spread democracy when we should have them here where they belong...Key word in the term National guard...being here in our nation and protecting our land..people ...Call me an insensitive person but fuck the Iraqis ...we need them here to help with our borders as well as helping our OWN citizens...If we were at full force last year when Katrina hit...do you not think that it might not have been as horrid in the end as it was?
BTW...I wonder if there are any posters here who lived in Louisianna who think after losing everything...home...job..and possibly a family member if september 11th was worse for them or the hell of living after a cat 5 hurricane...BTW..I lost someone that day in September...someone very close to me..so don't give me any bullshit..Knowing the person I lost ...they would be saddened to see what has happened to the country he loved so much since the tragedy of that day...but as he would say life goes on...his wife is managing it...I figure I honor him by living my life the same as I did the day before it happened...I'm not willing to let a shadow scare me...I only have this life to live and I am to let someone else stop me from it...by being scared...

When do you stop making excuses for acting like an ostrich? The desire to defend oneself is hardly acting like chicken little. It's human mature. Problem is, now that natural selection no longer applies because dweebs live in a society in which they can for the most part isolate themselves from violence, too many voices exist that have no concept of self defense.

I would have absolutely NO problem with those of you that want to sit in your own sheltered little world pretending bad guys don't exist except for the good people y'all will take down the drain with you. Most people don't need an ICBM up their ass to figure out something is amiss.