Consider The Facts

[MJB12741]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

Hey Monte, did you hear the one about "Israel is stealing 'Palestinian' Land"?

 

[montelatici]

Hey MJB, did you hear the one about the Jews buying the land in Palestine?

 

[Coyote]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

 

[Challenger]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

Disagree:

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. killing members of the group;
2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

ICRC service

Now look at what's going on and has been going on in Gaza and the West Bank and refer to the above; Numbers 1-4 certainly apply to the Zionist regime.

 

[montelatici]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

"gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun

1. the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation."

Israelis are not deliberately killing Palestinians?
2,000 is not a large group?

 

[montelatici]

By Gregory H. Stanton, President, Genocide Watch

Classification Symbolization Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Extermination Denial

Genocide is a process that develops in eight stages that are predictable but not inexorable. At each stage, preventive measures can stop it. The process is not linear. Logically, later stages must be preceded by earlier stages. But all stages continue to operate throughout the process.

1. CLASSIFICATION: All cultures have categories to distinguish people into “us and them” by ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality: German and Jew, Hutu and Tutsi. Bipolar societies that lack mixed categories, such as Rwanda and Burundi, are the most likely to have genocide. The main preventive measure at this early stage is to develop universalistic institutions that transcend ethnic or racial divisions, that actively promote tolerance and understanding, and that promote classifications that transcend the divisions. The Catholic church could have played this role in Rwanda, had it not been riven by the same ethnic cleavages as Rwandan society. Promotion of a common language in countries like Tanzania has also promoted transcendent national identity. This search for common ground is vital to early prevention of genocide.

2. SYMBOLIZATION: We give names or other symbols to the classifications. We name people “Jews” or “Gypsies”, or distinguish them by colors or dress; and apply the symbols to members of groups. Classification and symbolization are universally human and do not necessarily result in genocide unless they lead to the next stage, dehumanization. When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups: the yellow star for Jews under Nazi rule, the blue scarf for people from the Eastern Zone in Khmer Rouge Cambodia. To combat symbolization, hate symbols can be legally forbidden (swastikas) as can hate speech. Group marking like gang clothing or tribal scarring can be outlawed, as well. The problem is that legal limitations will fail if unsupported by popular cultural enforcement. Though Hutu and Tutsi were forbidden words in Burundi until the 1980’s, code-words replaced them. If widely supported, however, denial of symbolization can be powerful, as it was in Bulgaria, where the government refused to supply enough yellow badges and at least eighty percent of Jews did not wear them, depriving the yellow star of its significance as a Nazi symbol for Jews.

3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group. In combating this dehumanization, incitement to genocide should not be confused with protected speech. Genocidal societies lack constitutional protection for countervailing speech, and should be treated differently than democracies. Local and international leaders should condemn the use of hate speech and make it culturally unacceptable. Leaders who incite genocide should be banned from international travel and have their foreign finances frozen. Hate radio stations should be shut down, and hate propaganda banned. Hate crimes and atrocities should be promptly punished.

4. ORGANIZATION: Genocide is always organized, usually by the state, often using militias to provide deniability of state responsibility (the Janjaweed in Darfur.) Sometimes organization is informal (Hindu mobs led by local RSS militants) or decentralized (terrorist groups.) Special army units or militias are often trained and armed. Plans are made for genocidal killings. To combat this stage, membership in these militias should be outlawed. Their leaders should be denied visas for foreign travel. The U.N. should impose arms embargoes on governments and citizens of countries involved in genocidal massacres, and create commissions to investigate violations, as was done in post-genocide Rwanda.

5. POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Laws may forbid intermarriage or social interaction. Extremist terrorism targets moderates, intimidating and silencing the center. Moderates from the perpetrators’ own group are most able to stop genocide, so are the first to be arrested and killed. Prevention may mean security protection for moderate leaders or assistance to human rights groups. Assets of extremists may be seized, and visas for international travel denied to them. Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions.

6. PREPARATION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. Members of victim groups are forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is expropriated. They are often segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. At this stage, a Genocide Emergency must be declared. If the political will of the great powers, regional alliances, or the U.N. Security Council can be mobilized, armed international intervention should be prepared, or heavy assistance provided to the victim group to prepare for its self-defense. Otherwise, at least humanitarian assistance should be organized by the U.N. and private relief groups for the inevitable tide of refugees to come.

7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing. Sometimes the genocide results in revenge killings by groups against each other, creating the downward whirlpool-like cycle of bilateral genocide (as in Burundi). At this stage, only rapid and overwhelming armed intervention can stop genocide. Real safe areas or refugee escape corridors should be established with heavily armed international protection. (An unsafe “safe” area is worse than none at all.) The U.N. Standing High Readiness Brigade, EU Rapid Response Force, or regional forces -- should be authorized to act by the U.N. Security Council if the genocide is small. For larger interventions, a multilateral force authorized by the U.N. should intervene. If the U.N. is paralyzed, regional alliances must act. It is time to recognize that the international responsibility to protect transcends the narrow interests of individual nation states. If strong nations will not provide troops to intervene directly, they should provide the airlift, equipment, and financial means necessary for regional states to intervene.

8. DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile. There they remain with impunity, like Pol Pot or Idi Amin, unless they are captured and a tribunal is established to try them. The response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts. There the evidence can be heard, and the perpetrators punished. Tribunals like the Yugoslav or Rwanda Tribunals, or an international tribunal to try the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or an International Criminal Court may not deter the worst genocidal killers. But with the political will to arrest and prosecute them, some may be brought to justice.

 

[Coyote]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

Disagree:

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. killing members of the group;
2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

ICRC service

Now look at what's going on and has been going on in Gaza and the West Bank and refer to the above; Numbers 1-4 certainly apply to the Zionist regime.

Ok, let's take #1 - killing members of the group.

Thus far, those actions have been undertaken primarily in defense and in reaction to rocket fire in Israel, and terrorist actions conducted on civilians in Israel and in the Occupied Territory settlements. They aren't being killed solely because they are members of a particular group or religion.

#2 causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

That one has two different aspects. One is, again, self defense and security and if Hamas launched rockets into civilian areas I don't think you can expect Israel to standby wagging a finger and shaking a head.

The other is the treatment of Palestinians, particularly juveniles, in the justice system (particularly in comparison with Israeli citizens in the same territory). I think that is unjust and wrong - but is it "genocide" in and of itself? I don't think so.

#3 deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Possibly. But it is hard to disentangle that from legitimate self defense. What particular actions in this category can be seperated from self defense? Given Israel does have a substantial Arab (Palestinian) citizen population - how can you call it "genocide"? I'll agree there is ethnic cleansing, and I agree that there are serious inequalities in the way Arab citizens are treated compared to Jewish citizens. But that is not genocide.

#4 imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

I've never heard of this happening.

#5 forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Never heard of this happening either.


I think the claim to genocide is very weak

 

[Coyote]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

"gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun

1. the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation."

Israelis are not deliberately killing Palestinians?
2,000 is not a large group?

How can you disentangle that from legitimate self defense?

 

[Indeependent]

Thread title "Consider The Facts"...
The facts are that Israel is doing some amazing stuff despite the "Christ killers" bullshit and it's full steam ahead.

 

[montelatici]

1. Bombing an apartment building full of civilians or schools full of refugees containing people of a particular ethnic group is not legitimate self-defense.
2. The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

 

[Indeependent]

1. Bombing an apartment building full of civilians or schools full of refugees containing people of a particular ethnic group is not legitimate self-defense.
2. The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

Yeah, yeah, Jewish babies are fair game but Muslim adults firing missiles from behind children is righteous.
You are so fucked up.

 

[aris2chat]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

and yet Israel just gave work permits to around 30,000 palestinians to work in Israel and get Israeli wages.

The "ethnic cleansing" is of terrorist, or people with illegal homes or land they do not have legal deeds for.

Israel cannot retreat from the high ground as long as palestinians choose war over peace.

The ethnic cleansing is hamas sending kids out to be killed. They might as well be walking off a cliff for rivers of honey. Hamas is killing their own, they are killing the palestinians that attack Israelis. Might as well be suicide by cop.

 

[aris2chat]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

Disagree:

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. killing members of the group;
2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

ICRC service

Now look at what's going on and has been going on in Gaza and the West Bank and refer to the above; Numbers 1-4 certainly apply to the Zionist regime.

Palestinians genocide of Israelis/jews

 

[montelatici]

I think you need to at least get up to a few hundred killed a year to have it considered large numbers as defined for genocide.

 

[Shusha]

The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

This statement only serves to negate any real measurement of actual genocide. Its a way of saying, "If I believe that a particular group has a sinister intent and label them a transgressor then they are committing genocide regardless of the commission of any actual crimes or lack thereof." It moves the measurement of genocide to an imagined intent -- rather than on any actual deeds by the so-called transgressor.

The accusation of "genocide" by Israel is ridiculous. Just another re-defining of words to ensure that Israel is demonized and the Palestinian narrative is sold to the unwary.

 

[Coyote]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

and yet Israel just gave work permits to around 30,000 palestinians to work in Israel and get Israeli wages.

And? They have work permits but aren't allowed to live there. Family reunification efforts have been pitifully small.

The "ethnic cleansing" is of terrorist, or people with illegal homes or land they do not have legal deeds for.

Hardly. U.N. rights investigator accuses Israel of 'ethnic cleansing'

Israel cannot retreat from the high ground as long as palestinians choose war over peace.

The ethnic cleansing is hamas sending kids out to be killed. They might as well be walking off a cliff for rivers of honey. Hamas is killing their own, they are killing the palestinians that attack Israelis. Might as well be suicide by cop.

Israel is systematically removing Palestinians and replacing them with Jewish-only housing communities. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

 

[Coyote]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

Disagree:

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. killing members of the group;
2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

ICRC service

Now look at what's going on and has been going on in Gaza and the West Bank and refer to the above; Numbers 1-4 certainly apply to the Zionist regime.

Palestinians genocide of Israelis/jews

There is no Palestinian genocide of Israeli's/jews - that's just as false as the claim of Israeli genocide on the Palestinians. People need to learn what genocide means.

 

[Coyote]

The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

This statement only serves to negate any real measurement of actual genocide. Its a way of saying, "If I believe that a particular group has a sinister intent and label them a transgressor then they are committing genocide regardless of the commission of any actual crimes or lack thereof." It moves the measurement of genocide to an imagined intent -- rather than on any actual deeds by the so-called transgressor.

The accusation of "genocide" by Israel is ridiculous. Just another re-defining of words to ensure that Israel is demonized and the Palestinian narrative is sold to the unwary.

Exactly. It's like when people make cheap comparisons to the Holocaust and Hitler - it diminishes the horror of the real thing. It cheapens it and is like a slap in the face to all those victims of mass graves.

 

[Coyote]

I think you need to at least get up to a few hundred killed a year to have it considered large numbers as defined for genocide.

You need to have intent.

 

[aris2chat]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

and yet Israel just gave work permits to around 30,000 palestinians to work in Israel and get Israeli wages.

And? They have work permits but aren't allowed to live there. Family reunification efforts have been pitifully small.

The "ethnic cleansing" is of terrorist, or people with illegal homes or land they do not have legal deeds for.

Hardly. U.N. rights investigator accuses Israel of 'ethnic cleansing'

Israel cannot retreat from the high ground as long as palestinians choose war over peace.

The ethnic cleansing is hamas sending kids out to be killed. They might as well be walking off a cliff for rivers of honey. Hamas is killing their own, they are killing the palestinians that attack Israelis. Might as well be suicide by cop.

Israel is systematically removing Palestinians and replacing them with Jewish-only housing communities. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

Canadians working in the US go home at the end of the day.

For countries that require are visiting visa and work visa. We also have migrant workers that at the end of the season go home. It is not like traveling more than 30 or 40 miles each way. I would travel more than a hundred miles each way for a few years.

People that work in the city but live in the suburbs commute.

Sorry but palestinians are not Israelis and they only get work permits. It is a matter of security.
Arabs live and work in Israel. Palestinians get a day pass.

The west bank lost thousands of jobs when companies move from the west bank to Israel. Israel was creating jobs for palestinians, at Israeli pay rate which is at least double that the palestinian rate.

Jobs will be created in gaza they stop the attacks long enough for a multi billion dollar harbor. They had jobs when hotels were built and full of tourists. The unemployment was down when jews were living on their land in gaza.

It is all about palestinians putting down their weapons and picking up tools for building a nation.