Consider The Facts

[Shusha]

There is no Palestinian genocide of Israeli's/jews - that's just as false as the claim of Israeli genocide on the Palestinians. People need to learn what genocide means.

I would argue that some very extreme groups have expressed some wish for genocide committed against the Jewish people -- but I agree with you, for the most part there is no Palestinian genocide of Jews either.

Further, with or without current cause, I would say the Jewish people have an especial, if understandable, fear of genocide.

And yes, it cheapens the term to re-define it to sell your own narrative.

Rocco said something yesterday about the assumption of sinister intent that some lay on the other side. And it stuck me as true. Without that assumption of sinister intent this conflict would be much easier to solve.

 

[Coyote]

There is no Palestinian genocide of Israeli's/jews - that's just as false as the claim of Israeli genocide on the Palestinians. People need to learn what genocide means.

I would argue that some very extreme groups have expressed some wish for genocide committed against the Jewish people -- but I agree with you, for the most part there is no Palestinian genocide of Jews either.

Further, with or without current cause, I would say the Jewish people have an especial, if understandable, fear of genocide.

And yes, it cheapens the term to re-define it to sell your own narrative.

Rocco said something yesterday about the assumption of sinister intent that some lay on the other side. And it stuck me as true. Without that assumption of sinister intent this conflict would be much easier to solve.

Ya, I read an article somewhere, that included opinion polls of Palestinian and Israeli civilians, and the widespread belief in each groups of the other's malign intent. Each side believes the other intends to eliminate them.

 

[Shusha]

Israel is systematically removing Palestinians and replacing them with Jewish-only housing communities. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

How and from where is Israel "systematically removing Palestinians"? And where is intent to ethnically cleanse demonstrated?

 

[Shusha]

Ya, I read an article somewhere, that included opinion polls of Palestinian and Israeli civilians, and the widespread belief in each groups of the other's malign intent. Each side believes the other intends to eliminate them.

Agreed. Though "eliminate" has a very different meaning than genocide.

I do believe that there are large percentages of Palestinians whose goal is to eliminate Jewish sovereignty. Don't you?

 

[aris2chat]

There is no Palestinian genocide of Israeli's/jews - that's just as false as the claim of Israeli genocide on the Palestinians. People need to learn what genocide means.

I would argue that some very extreme groups have expressed some wish for genocide committed against the Jewish people -- but I agree with you, for the most part there is no Palestinian genocide of Jews either.

Further, with or without current cause, I would say the Jewish people have an especial, if understandable, fear of genocide.

And yes, it cheapens the term to re-define it to sell your own narrative.

Rocco said something yesterday about the assumption of sinister intent that some lay on the other side. And it stuck me as true. Without that assumption of sinister intent this conflict would be much easier to solve.

just calls and threats of wiping jews off the face of the earth. These are people who wanted a crematorium large enough for the jews throughout the middle east and north africa.

Gaza Imam Wields Knife, Tells Congregation To Kill Jews

 

[Coyote]

Ya, I read an article somewhere, that included opinion polls of Palestinian and Israeli civilians, and the widespread belief in each groups of the other's malign intent. Each side believes the other intends to eliminate them.

Agreed. Though "eliminate" has a very different meaning than genocide.

I do believe that there are large percentages of Palestinians whose goal is to eliminate Jewish sovereignty. Don't you?

Jewish sovereignty? Perhaps. But it looks like many still want their own state alongside Israel, not one state w/o Jewish sovereignty.

I like to look at this site for Palestinian public opinion polls - it's often enlightening - here's the latest one: Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No - 57 | PCPSR

 

[Coyote]

There is no Palestinian genocide of Israeli's/jews - that's just as false as the claim of Israeli genocide on the Palestinians. People need to learn what genocide means.

I would argue that some very extreme groups have expressed some wish for genocide committed against the Jewish people -- but I agree with you, for the most part there is no Palestinian genocide of Jews either.

Further, with or without current cause, I would say the Jewish people have an especial, if understandable, fear of genocide.

And yes, it cheapens the term to re-define it to sell your own narrative.

Rocco said something yesterday about the assumption of sinister intent that some lay on the other side. And it stuck me as true. Without that assumption of sinister intent this conflict would be much easier to solve.

just calls and threats of wiping jews off the face of the earth. These are people who wanted a crematorium large enough for the jews throughout the middle east and north africa.

Gaza Imam Wields Knife, Tells Congregation To Kill Jews

There are always extremists.

 

[Shusha]

Ya, I read an article somewhere, that included opinion polls of Palestinian and Israeli civilians, and the widespread belief in each groups of the other's malign intent. Each side believes the other intends to eliminate them.

Agreed. Though "eliminate" has a very different meaning than genocide.

I do believe that there are large percentages of Palestinians whose goal is to eliminate Jewish sovereignty. Don't you?

Jewish sovereignty? Perhaps. But it looks like many still want their own state alongside Israel, not one state w/o Jewish sovereignty.

I like to look at this site for Palestinian public opinion polls - it's often enlightening - here's the latest one: Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No - 57 | PCPSR

Yep. 57% support an armed intifada. 51% oppose a two state solution. 60% reject recognition of a Jewish State. 69% oppose a one state solution with Arabs and Jews enjoying equal rights.

 

[MJB12741]

Fact is Israel has the capability to commit genocide on the Palestinians but lack the desire. Palestinians have the desire to commit genocide on the Israeli's but lack the capability. And you can bet your bottom dollar Israel will do whatever it takes to keep it that way.

 

[montelatici]

Fact is Israel has the capability to commit genocide on the Palestinians but lack the desire. Palestinians have the desire to commit genocide on the Israeli's but lack the capability. And you can bet your bottom dollar Israel will do whatever it takes to keep it that way.

You have shown that you don't know what genocide means, so how can you make any claims.

 

[Indeependent]

Fact is Israel has the capability to commit genocide on the Palestinians but lack the desire. Palestinians have the desire to commit genocide on the Israeli's but lack the capability. And you can bet your bottom dollar Israel will do whatever it takes to keep it that way.

You have shown that you don't know what genocide means, so how can you make any claims.

Actually, you have shown that YOU have no idea what genocide means.
Does genocide include hiring members of that targeted people for equal pay?

 

[montelatici]

The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

This statement only serves to negate any real measurement of actual genocide. Its a way of saying, "If I believe that a particular group has a sinister intent and label them a transgressor then they are committing genocide regardless of the commission of any actual crimes or lack thereof." It moves the measurement of genocide to an imagined intent -- rather than on any actual deeds by the so-called transgressor.

The accusation of "genocide" by Israel is ridiculous. Just another re-defining of words to ensure that Israel is demonized and the Palestinian narrative is sold to the unwary.

"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 9 December 1948


Article I The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such :

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 78/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf

 

[Indeependent]

The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

This statement only serves to negate any real measurement of actual genocide. Its a way of saying, "If I believe that a particular group has a sinister intent and label them a transgressor then they are committing genocide regardless of the commission of any actual crimes or lack thereof." It moves the measurement of genocide to an imagined intent -- rather than on any actual deeds by the so-called transgressor.

The accusation of "genocide" by Israel is ridiculous. Just another re-defining of words to ensure that Israel is demonized and the Palestinian narrative is sold to the unwary.

"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 9 December 1948


Article I The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such :

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 78/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf

Gee, I wonder which document superseded this one?

 

[Challenger]

Ok, let's take #1 - killing members of the group.

Thus far, those actions have been undertaken primarily in defense and in reaction to rocket fire in Israel, and terrorist actions conducted on civilians in Israel and in the Occupied Territory settlements. They aren't being killed solely because they are members of a particular group or religion.

#2 causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

That one has two different aspects. One is, again, self defense and security and if Hamas launched rockets into civilian areas I don't think you can expect Israel to standby wagging a finger and shaking a head.

The other is the treatment of Palestinians, particularly juveniles, in the justice system (particularly in comparison with Israeli citizens in the same territory). I think that is unjust and wrong - but is it "genocide" in and of itself? I don't think so...

The "self defence" plea used by the Zionists rests on proportionality of the response. If a rocket is fired at you, there are three possible responses;
Do nothing - unlikey response by the Zionists although they could take the matter to the ICC and/or UN to obtain a ruling that would sanction the Resistance (i.e. obtain a judgement/resolution allowing extreme military action if the attacks don't cease).
Retaliate - Here's where proportionality comes in; they shoot at you, you can legally shoot back at those firing at you with relative impunity. If you have weapons (i.e. guided missiles) that can kill or destroy the launch sites, this is using reasonable force to retaliate. However, carpet bombing an entire suburb (whether or not you warn the inhabitants in advance) most reasonable, rational people would consider that a disproportionate response which cannot be "self defence" Neither is destroying civilian infrastructure.
Shoot down the rocket before it hits anything important.- Iron Dome, most people would say that was sufficient for a "self defence" plea.

Killing those you identify as "terrorists" is legitimate self defence, wantonly killing civillians in large numbers in order to kill those you identify as "terrorists" is an act of genocide as defined.

Serious bodily or mental harm includes waging pychological warfare by having your jets routinely overfly the Gaza strip creating a sonic boom, or just by sending drones overhead on a daily basis to induce paranoia. Restricting movement, herding people into cages on a daily basis, restricting certain types of foodstuffs, routinely torturing prisoners, all cause bodily and mental harm; all acts of genocide as defined.

"Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;" Seen Gaza recently. the Zionist Paradise may indeed contain a "Muslim Israeli" population, with ostensibly "equal rights" although there are both laws and social stigmas attached to that status. This does not in any way diminish the fact that a genocide of Palestinians is under way.

""Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group" I've never heard of this happening." In 1991 the fertility rate in Gaza was 8.3 children per woman, in 2014 this had halved to 4.4 according to Index Mundi The reasons why Gaza’s population is so young

Maybe the claim is not as weak as you think.

 

[MJB12741]

The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

This statement only serves to negate any real measurement of actual genocide. Its a way of saying, "If I believe that a particular group has a sinister intent and label them a transgressor then they are committing genocide regardless of the commission of any actual crimes or lack thereof." It moves the measurement of genocide to an imagined intent -- rather than on any actual deeds by the so-called transgressor.

The accusation of "genocide" by Israel is ridiculous. Just another re-defining of words to ensure that Israel is demonized and the Palestinian narrative is sold to the unwary.

"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 9 December 1948


Article I The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such :

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 78/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf

Thanks for pointing this out. The top four acts you refer to from article ll are committed by the Palestinians upon the Isreli's.

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

 

[montelatici]

The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

This statement only serves to negate any real measurement of actual genocide. Its a way of saying, "If I believe that a particular group has a sinister intent and label them a transgressor then they are committing genocide regardless of the commission of any actual crimes or lack thereof." It moves the measurement of genocide to an imagined intent -- rather than on any actual deeds by the so-called transgressor.

The accusation of "genocide" by Israel is ridiculous. Just another re-defining of words to ensure that Israel is demonized and the Palestinian narrative is sold to the unwary.

"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 9 December 1948


Article I The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such :

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 78/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf

Thanks for pointing this out. The top four acts you refer to from article ll are committed by the Palestinians upon the Isreli's.

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

You forgot the part about "great numbers". Isolated incidents carried out by individuals causing a dozen fatalities are not equivalent to government sanctioned and organized massacres of thousands of civilians in periods of less than a few weeks.

 

[MJB12741]

The all the various stages of genocide may not be achieved by the transgressor, nor may the transgressor be able eliminate all of the group he would like to eliminate. It is still genocide.

This statement only serves to negate any real measurement of actual genocide. Its a way of saying, "If I believe that a particular group has a sinister intent and label them a transgressor then they are committing genocide regardless of the commission of any actual crimes or lack thereof." It moves the measurement of genocide to an imagined intent -- rather than on any actual deeds by the so-called transgressor.

The accusation of "genocide" by Israel is ridiculous. Just another re-defining of words to ensure that Israel is demonized and the Palestinian narrative is sold to the unwary.

"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations on 9 December 1948


Article I The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such :

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 78/volume-78-I-1021-English.pdf

Thanks for pointing this out. The top four acts you refer to from article ll are committed by the Palestinians upon the Isreli's.

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

You forgot the part about "great numbers". Isolated incidents carried out by individuals causing a dozen fatalities are not equivalent to government sanctioned and organized massacres of thousands of civilians in periods of less than a few weeks.

OMG! You mean Israel has "goverment sanctioned" massacres of thousands of Palestinians? I didn't know that. Please tell us more about this with documentation. 'Atta boy.

 

[montelatici]

Were the thousands of Palestinian civilians, mostly women and children, murdered in Gaza killed by unsanctioned private Jewish death squads?

 

[P F Tinmore]

As you have never read the definition of genocide, and don't what it means, why do you even mention the word.

There is no "genocide" of Palestinians going on - that's a false claim and a very serious allegation. Genocide: Bosnia, The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenians...

I do think there is ethnic cleansing going on in certain areas through enforcement of restrictive residency laws and similar legislative tactics.

Disagree:

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. killing members of the group;
2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

ICRC service

Now look at what's going on and has been going on in Gaza and the West Bank and refer to the above; Numbers 1-4 certainly apply to the Zionist regime.

Palestinians genocide of Israelis/jews

There is no Palestinian genocide of Israeli's/jews - that's just as false as the claim of Israeli genocide on the Palestinians. People need to learn what genocide means.

Israel does regularly commit acts of genocide.

Punishable Acts​

The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:​

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

The international legal definition of genocide - Prevent Genocide International​

Of course the motive can be found by Israel's denial of the existence of Palestinians.

Israel has destroyed homes, uprooted food producing trees, bulldozed and poisoned crops, destroyed cisterns and wells, and denied medical care.

 

[aris2chat]

You take precautions to prevent damage, but you don't want them trying again to fire on you. you dont leave the door open in hopes you can slam the door closed in time, you make sure they cannot try again. You take out the locations and those involved.

This is not a game where they practice good sportsmanship shake hands and try again tomorrow. This is palestinians trying in any possible to kill Israelis. Just because they are not efficient, more bang than boom, does not mean they are not dangerous killers waging their own war on Israel.
Israel has every right and obligation to respond in self defense, not to slap them on the hand but to eliminate the threat.

If all you do is block, you will get tired (which is what the palestinians hope), if you want to be left alone, you put them down hard so they know not to mess with you.

Palestinians might not care about life, but Israelis are not going to sacrifice themselves because palestinians don't believe in peace.