Conservatives Battle Liberals In The Classroom

[Oddball]

Why does the left push that darn, "Chicken Little" mentality?

People dying in the streets
Rich people hogging up all the wealth
Gullible warming
Robber Barons
Little chiiillldrrreeennn starving

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Bfgrn]

Why does the right push that darn, "Chicken Little" mentality?

Death Panels
Redistribution of Wealth (which most of them don't have)
Kill Grandma
al Queda is comming
Government is watching

It must be really stressful to live in this constant state of "alarm". No wonder so many drink.

Here's an interesting article I came across last year...

Triumph of the Red-State Fascists

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

 

[PeterS]

I don't see this as a liberal/conservative issue, but good article.

My objection to the direction that public education, known as 'progressive' since Dewey, is that protagonists have replaced academic content, as you see in the article, with the quasi-Marxist 'social justice.'

If you liked the article, I recommend this one to you:

1. At a recent meeting of the New York Teaching Fellows program (“Teach for America”: provides an alternate route to state certification for about 1,700 new teachers annually) , Sol Stern found the one book that the fellows had to read in full was Pedagogy of the Oppressed, by the Brazilian educator Paulo Freire.
This book has achieved near-iconic status in America’s teacher-training programs. In 2003, David Steiner and Susan Rozen published a study examining the curricula of 16 schools of education—14 of them among the top-ranked institutions in the country, according to U.S. News and World Report—and found that Pedagogy of the Oppressed was one of the most frequently assigned texts in their philosophy of education courses.

2. But rather than dealing with the education of children, Pedagogy of the Oppressed mentions none of the issues that troubled education reformers throughout the twentieth century: testing, standards, curriculum, the role of parents, how to organize schools, what subjects should be taught in various grades, how best to train teachers, the most effective way of teaching disadvantaged students. This ed-school bestseller is, instead, a utopian political tract calling for the overthrow of capitalist hegemony and the creation of classless societies.

3. Freire never intends “pedagogy” to refer to any method of classroom instruction based on analysis and research, or to any means of producing higher academic achievement for students. [H]e relies on Marx’s standard formulation that “the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat [and] this dictatorship only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.” In one footnote, however, Freire does mention a society that has actually realized the “permanent liberation” he seeks: it “appears to be the fundamental aspect of Mao’s Cultural Revolution.”

4. The pedagogical point of Freire’s thesis : its opposition to taxing students with any actual academic content, which Freire derides as “official knowledge” that serves to rationalize inequality within capitalist society. One of Freire’s most widely quoted metaphors dismisses teacher-directed instruction as a misguided “banking concept,” in which “the scope of action allowed to the students extends only as far as receiving, filing and storing the deposits.” Freire proposes instead that teachers partner with their coequals, the students, in a “dialogic” and “problem-solving” process until the roles of teacher and student merge into “teacher-students” and “student-teachers.”
Pedagogy of the Oppressor by Sol Stern, City Journal Spring 2009

If we cannot reclaim the schools, it is the end of America.

When have conservatives ever had public schools to reclaim?

 

[Old Rocks]

Educated people reject Socialism, hence our sabotaged educational system tries to keep people ignorant.

I see. We have a higher educational average than Germany or France?

 

[midcan5]

This thread was never about education...PC's opening post was merely pretext for her real agenda...pinning Marxism to the left nefariously through Paulo Freire...

The thread died from that point on...PC has no real interest in the outcome of "others"

I agree and most wingnuts exhibit the classic conservative worldview.

"Researchers help define what makes a political conservative"

'Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:'

Fear and aggression
Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
Uncertainty avoidance
Need for cognitive closure
Terror management

07.22.2003 - Researchers help define what makes a political conservative

 

[Oddball]

And when all else fails, paint those who oppose your politics as mentally unbalanced.

Nope, nothing haughty and elitist about that.

 

[Bfgrn]

And when all else fails, paint those who oppose your politics as mentally unbalanced.

Nope, nothing haughty and elitist about that.

And when you don't have any ability to repudiate facts, resort to "cliches"

Nope, nothing lazy ass or ignorant about that

 

[PeterS]

And when all else fails, paint those who oppose your politics as mentally unbalanced.

Nope, nothing haughty and elitist about that.

What else failed?

 

[Oddball]

And when all else fails, paint those who oppose your politics as mentally unbalanced.

Nope, nothing haughty and elitist about that.

And when you don't have any ability to repudiate facts, resort to "cliches"

Nope, nothing lazy ass or ignorant about that

What would be the point in repudiating self-evident deflection and blatant elitist snobbery, when it refutes itself?

 

[Oddball]

Of course, two can play Midcant's idiotic game:

Dr. Rossiter says the liberal agenda preys on weakness and feelings of inferiority in the population by:

creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization;
satisfying infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation;

augmenting primitive feelings of envy;

rejecting the sovereignty of the individual, subordinating him to the will of the government.
"The roots of liberalism and its associated madness can be clearly identified by understanding how children develop from infancy to adulthood and how distorted development produces the irrational beliefs of the liberal mind," he says. "When the modern liberal mind whines about imaginary victims, rages against imaginary villains and seeks above all else to run the lives of persons competent to run their own lives, the neurosis of the liberal mind becomes painfully obvious."

LiveLeak.com - Top psychiatrist concludes liberals clinically nuts

 

[Toro]

Educated people reject Socialism, hence our sabotaged educational system tries to keep people ignorant.

That's right. We need to teach the "science" of Creationism!

Intelligent Design! Intelligent Design!

 

[Bfgrn]

Of course, two can play Midcant's idiotic game:

Dr. Rossiter says the liberal agenda preys on weakness and feelings of inferiority in the population by:

creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization;
satisfying infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation;

augmenting primitive feelings of envy;

rejecting the sovereignty of the individual, subordinating him to the will of the government.
"The roots of liberalism and its associated madness can be clearly identified by understanding how children develop from infancy to adulthood and how distorted development produces the irrational beliefs of the liberal mind," he says. "When the modern liberal mind whines about imaginary victims, rages against imaginary villains and seeks above all else to run the lives of persons competent to run their own lives, the neurosis of the liberal mind becomes painfully obvious."

LiveLeak.com - Top psychiatrist concludes liberals clinically nuts

Actually, we could look at facts...but I know dogma is more up your alley...

Funny, I heard Dr. Lyle H. Rossiter interviewed by Thom Hartmann last year... Hartmann dismantled him..."doc" even admitted his next book could be called The Conservative Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness! To say the "doc" is a lightweight opportunist would be charitable... I'd be more than happy to e-mail you the podcast...

The study midcan5 posted info on is: Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition

In that study the authors examined 88 different psychological studies conducted between 1958 and 2002 that involved 22,818 people from 12 different countries.

Hey, but you have "doc"

 

[Charles Stucker]

I see a lot of ignorance regarding the teaching of arithmetic.
6 year old children do not have the development to learn abstract algebra.
They can learn basic addition.
A good founding in arithmetic is essential to a better understanding of algebra in high school.
First grade math should drill the students daily in addition. Weekly tests measure their retention.
Second grade students drill daily in subtraction, with weekly tests.
Third grade Multiplication drills and tests
4th grade long division
5th grade fractions

Just like sports, the secret is drill, drill, drill.

It is not glamorous, it is not fun for the teacher, it is not a lot of things.
It is necessary to teach the children how to do basic arithmetic.
Calculators do not help, they hinder. They hinder because they become a crutch and excuse in one "I can use a calculator when I'm not in class."
Yes, but only if you can frame the right question. Which requires understanding the math, and that understanding begins with a facility at arithmetic which is sadly lacking in too many young people today.

You can catch up at a latter date, learning everything you need to know in college, but that tends to produce what I term neo-idiot savants; people who are highly trained in a very narrow field. Had they but received a better primary education they might be well rounded, but they are not, and the competitive nature of the workplace forces specialization which makes replacing those lost years all the harder.

Of course the math drill method is a very conservative teaching method, going back centuries, so it might not appeal to brain damaged liberals who want the "newest" trend.

 

[midcan5]

And when all else fails, paint those who oppose your politics as mentally unbalanced....

A curious comeback that contains a kernel of truth the author may not agree with - not 'unbalanced' but certainly not balanced. LOL

See: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Are-Doomed-Reclaiming-Conservative-Pessimism/dp/0307409589/ref=tag_cdp_bkt_edpp_url]Amazon.com: We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism (9780307409584): John Derbyshire: Books[/ame]


This is consistent with the Berkeley study and other comments from the more liberal and balanced folk above.

 

[Bfgrn]

And when all else fails, paint those who oppose your politics as mentally unbalanced....

A curious comeback that contains a kernel of truth the author may not agree with - not 'unbalanced' but certainly not balanced. LOL

See: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Are-Doomed-Reclaiming-Conservative-Pessimism/dp/0307409589/ref=tag_cdp_bkt_edpp_url]Amazon.com: We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism (9780307409584): John Derbyshire: Books[/ame]


This is consistent with the Berkeley study and other comments from the more liberal and balanced folk above.

Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism aptly describes the right wing mind...

Interesting...one of DUDe's heroes is F. A. Hayek, who DUDe calls a libertarian, even though Hayek himself doesn't. But DUDe claims: "I'm quite well versed in Hayek"...

Here is a quote from a man F. A. Hayek calls one of the greatest liberals...

"Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear."
William E. Gladstone

Irony abounds!

 

[PoliticalChic]

I see a lot of ignorance regarding the teaching of arithmetic.
6 year old children do not have the development to learn abstract algebra.
They can learn basic addition.
A good founding in arithmetic is essential to a better understanding of algebra in high school.
First grade math should drill the students daily in addition. Weekly tests measure their retention.
Second grade students drill daily in subtraction, with weekly tests.
Third grade Multiplication drills and tests
4th grade long division
5th grade fractions

Just like sports, the secret is drill, drill, drill.

It is not glamorous, it is not fun for the teacher, it is not a lot of things.
It is necessary to teach the children how to do basic arithmetic.
Calculators do not help, they hinder. They hinder because they become a crutch and excuse in one "I can use a calculator when I'm not in class."
Yes, but only if you can frame the right question. Which requires understanding the math, and that understanding begins with a facility at arithmetic which is sadly lacking in too many young people today.

You can catch up at a latter date, learning everything you need to know in college, but that tends to produce what I term neo-idiot savants; people who are highly trained in a very narrow field. Had they but received a better primary education they might be well rounded, but they are not, and the competitive nature of the workplace forces specialization which makes replacing those lost years all the harder.

Of course the math drill method is a very conservative teaching method, going back centuries, so it might not appeal to brain damaged liberals who want the "newest" trend.

You seem to have experience in this area.

And it is interesting that none of our reliably doctrinaire liberal friends have found it beneficial to argue the points you made.

We use a curriculum pretty much as you outline it, and, of course, don't allow calculators.

 

[Si modo]

This thread was never about education...PC's opening post was merely pretext for her real agenda...pinning Marxism to the left nefariously through Paulo Freire...

The thread died from that point on...PC has no real interest in the outcome of "others"

I agree and most wingnuts exhibit the classic conservative worldview.

"Researchers help define what makes a political conservative"

'Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:'

Fear and aggression
Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
Uncertainty avoidance
Need for cognitive closure
Terror management

07.22.2003 - Researchers help define what makes a political conservative

Obviously you haven't quite the capacity to properly analyze the work. That's OK, though; it's not your fault.

Isn't it fun?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

I see a lot of ignorance regarding the teaching of arithmetic.

For clarity sake, what you discuss next is indeed teaching Arithmetic, just Arithmetic. What the NCTM is advocating is teaching Mathematics.

6 year old children do not have the development to learn abstract algebra.

Demonstrably false, as most blanket statements turn out to be. Any child that can tell time can learn modular arithmetic. Once they learn modular arithmetic they can learn the basics of finite abellian groups. That's the building block of most 300 level University abstract algebra courses. See Gallian's wonderful book.

The real debate is should a younger students be taught the basics of abstract algebra or should we be focusing on just arithmetic. That speaks to the goal of math education. If you want a population that is merely math literate, then arithmetic is enough. If you want to produce more mathematicians, then maybe we should push harder.

The number of American Math Ph'D's is starting to get alarming. If you don't see that as a national security issue, you should talk to the NSA.

They can learn basic addition.
A good founding in arithmetic is essential to a better understanding of algebra in high school.

Agreed.

First grade math should drill the students daily in addition. Weekly tests measure their retention.

Tests do not measure retention unless the test are cummulative. Just a minor point. Part of the issues in the educational system is that tests are not cummulative enough and students frequently can't recall what they learned last week, much less last year.

Second grade students drill daily in subtraction, with weekly tests.
Third grade Multiplication drills and tests
4th grade long division
5th grade fractions

Just like sports, the secret is drill, drill, drill.

Practice is essential for mathematical understanding. This is why teachers assign lots of homework, especially in mathematics. However, a student that is drilling a mistake repeatedly learns the mistake. Part of the drilling has to be constant corrective feedback.

That's why I'm very much in favor of computerized homework supplementing any mathematical course prior to Calculus. The corrective feedback is that important.

It is not glamorous, it is not fun for the teacher, it is not a lot of things.
It is necessary to teach the children how to do basic arithmetic.
Calculators do not help, they hinder. They hinder because they become a crutch and excuse in one "I can use a calculator when I'm not in class."
Yes, but only if you can frame the right question. Which requires understanding the math, and that understanding begins with a facility at arithmetic which is sadly lacking in too many young people today.

Arithmetic knowledge alone will not allow a student to solve complicated problems. That is kinda the point of the NCTM guidelines, which the OP missed.

You can catch up at a latter date, learning everything you need to know in college, but that tends to produce what I term neo-idiot savants; people who are highly trained in a very narrow field. Had they but received a better primary education they might be well rounded, but they are not, and the competitive nature of the workplace forces specialization which makes replacing those lost years all the harder.

The state of current knowledge is such that specialization is practically required. The last "complete" Mathematician is generally acknowledged to be Gauss, and the last Universalist was Poincare.

Of course the math drill method is a very conservative teaching method, going back centuries, so it might not appeal to brain damaged liberals who want the "newest" trend.

Actually, the Drill method is new compared to the Moore Method as used in Euclid. What the NCTM is advocating is actually a very old method. You have it backwards.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

You seem to have experience in this area.

And it is interesting that none of our reliably doctrinaire liberal friends have found it beneficial to argue the points you made.

We use a curriculum pretty much as you outline it, and, of course, don't allow calculators.

I'm really very curious why you make a pointed attempt to disregard any view point in this thread that does not support yours. It seems you are not interested in intellectual debate, just more Con vs Lib bu11$h1t

 

[Charles Stucker]

6 year old children do not have the development to learn abstract algebra.

Demonstrably false, as most blanket statements turn out to be. Any child that can tell time can learn modular arithmetic. Once they learn modular arithmetic they can learn the basics of finite abellian groups. That's the building block of most 300 level University abstract algebra courses. See Gallian's wonderful book.

The real debate is should a younger students be taught the basics of abstract algebra or should we be focusing on just arithmetic. That speaks to the goal of math education. If you want a population that is merely math literate, then arithmetic is enough. If you want to produce more mathematicians, then maybe we should push harder.
of the issues in the educational system is that tests are not cummulative enough and students frequently can't recall what they learned last week, much less last year.

Of course the math drill method is a very conservative teaching method, going back centuries, so it might not appeal to brain damaged liberals who want the "newest" trend.

Actually, the Drill method is new compared to the Moore Method as used in Euclid. What the NCTM is advocating is actually a very old method. You have it backwards.

Ah, we hear from an NEA sponsor.
Have you ever taught a class of 22 first graders? (22 being the class size limit in Texas for elementary education the last time I checked) A third or more have an older sibling and enter knowing they can slack and the teacher cannot complain. Four or five have serious learning disabilities (generally at least 1 is a crack baby) and at least two (Perhaps from among the ones with Learning problems perhaps not) are chronic troublemakers. You are not allowed to fail more than two. You are not allowed to get rid of the troublemakers or send the truly brain damaged ones to special education.
Now sure, if you start by selecting only the best candidates out of an entire county, then maybe you can begin working on something more than arithmetic at first grade.
Maybe.
But if you have a set of typical students all the "extra" distractions will be just that - distractions from learning ANYTHING related to math.
Those students will never learn Algebra. They will never get beyond the ability to punch numbers in a calculator and hope for the right answer. They won't be able to manage a tight budget well, nor plan for their retirement properly. They will purchase the large economy size even when the price per unit is more than the smaller size because they can't do that much basic math.

As for the Euclidean method - the teaching of Geometry in the classical era was mostly done for the already capable elite who had mastered the art of Arithmetic at an earlier age.

Children can learn to tell time because they have a concrete example how it works - the watch on their hand. It is a huge conceptual step from that to modular arithmetic as anyone who has worked with 6 year old children knows.

Cumulative tests? Of course tests are cumulative, this is math, where everything they learn build upon what they already know. Subtraction (2nd grade) builds on addition. So does multiplication (3rd grade), as does Long Division (4th grade) - in fact starting in 4th grade everything is used for long division.
Trying for too much means the students have an excuse to fail, and justifying an approach because Enrico Fermi could do it that way is asinine.